Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[samtonga43]

Or members of the UHJ or how about the NSA, then what about members of your LSA?

You mention the 'UHJ'. How many members are there in this group?

 

[Muffled]

I think I have heard other Baha'is try and claim that the whole Bible is sealed. I wonder where they get that from? It almost sounds like something that Bill Sears would say? But you think you thought it up all on your own?

I believe I have heard it from churches as well. It is usually based upon a verse in Revelations that only refers to that book.

 

[samtonga43]

Because historians do rely on evidence. They do test their ideas. And yes, some people do not understand the concept of evidence. Most of the theists here, for example.

There are many types of evidence; which one do you think most theists here do not understand?

 

[Trailblazer]

Because historians do rely on evidence. They do test their ideas.

How do they 'test' their ideas?

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are many types of evidence; which one do you think most theists here do not understand?

Scientific evidence for sure. But they also do not understand what it takes to make a rational argument for their beliefs. At least I have as of yet to see one do so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How do they 'test' their ideas?

They almost never trust one source. And there are certain claims of history that would leave evidence behind. They look for physical evidence as well. Not just tales written down.

 

[CG Didymus]

What other Baha'is do is no concern of mine because I am only responsible for myself. I do not know what other Baha'is do and it is none of my business. I don't care if the leaders obey the rules either because that is none of my business and it is no reflection on me. I am also not concerned about the future and what might happen. I live in the present.

But it is the business of Baha'i leadership to make sure people calling themselves Baha'is aren't doing things that hurt or embarrass the Faith. Then, if someone in leadership does something inappropriate, it is the business of others in leadership to take action. And about the present? How extreme do you take it? Do you have food in the frig? Why? That's for another day?

 

[CG Didymus]

The reason we respect the authority of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ and the other institutions of the Faith is because we are loyal to the Covenant, as ordained by Baha'u'llah.

The Bahá’í Faith began with the mission entrusted by God to two Divine Messengers—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. Today, the distinctive unity of the Faith They founded stems from explicit instructions given by Bahá’u’lláh that have assured the continuity of guidance following His passing. This line of succession, referred to as the Covenant, went from Bahá’u’lláh to His Son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and then from ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to His grandson, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, ordained by Bahá’u’lláh. A Bahá’í accepts the divine authority of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and of these appointed successors.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

Yes, you're loyal and you respect and believe in what these "other" people say.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, 'He said so' is no proof at all. Baha'u'llah wrote what the greatest proof is.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

From my perspective if you read what Baha'u'llah has written and find out what the Baha'i Faith teaches, it should be obvious He was from God, but obviously most people do not share my perspective.

And isn't that him saying so? And if it's true, there's nothing wrong with him saying so. But, can we trust in what he says and writes is the truth? Maybe, some of us here are checking, and checking....

 

[CG Didymus]

No the reason is because people and the world change over time so there are differences between religions, but differences are not contradictions. They only appear to contradict because man corrupted the older religions over time and as such we cannot even see what they taught originally anymore.

Those discrepancies are because the needs of people in those times were different at different times in history, they never had original scriptures, and/or the original scriptures and religious beliefs were altered over time. There is a logical explanation for everything.

So the spiritual and the social teachings change with each new messenger? That's not what I was told.

 

[CG Didymus]

I never said the whole Bible was sealed. I am saying that Christians did not fully understand the Bible... As Daniel said, we will know more at the time of the end.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

I am going to believe what Baha'u'llah wrote, not what some Christian believes the Bible means, since I believe that Baha'u'llah unsealed the Bible as per Daniel 12.

So you "never said the whole Bible was sealed"? Yet, you believe Baha'u'llah "unsealed" the Bible?

Funny how each new religion seems to think that the previous ones didn't understand their own Scriptures.

 

[CG Didymus]

So this evidence is not just subjective? Do you have some OBJECTIVE evidence to share with us?

What about him being a very fast writer don't you understand? How objective do you need?

 

[CG Didymus]

I look at it this way, Baha’u’llah offered this

"The Revelation, which from time immemorial, hath been acclaimed as the Purpose and Promise of all the Prophets of God, and the most cherished desire of His Messengers, hath now, by virtue of the pervasive Will of the Almighty and at His irresistible bidding, been revealed unto men. The advent of such a Revelation hath been heralded in all the sacred Scriptures."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 5-6

So if all those that practice all those Faiths, do not see revealed in their scriptures what was offerd above, then what else can they be but sealed in meaning?

Also offerered by Baha'u'llah is that the seals are broken to the Réunion with God through this Message.

"...Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day—the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?"

Regards Tony

I thought there was a new Baha'i here on the forum. It's lucky you put "Tony" at the end. "Transmuting Soul" has a nice ring to it. But anyway, Of course it's a great day if the Baha'i Faith is true. But Baha'is do have to make reasonable explanations as to why Baha'u'llah if the fulfillment of every promised one of every major religion. There's some things that are very questionable. If I were debating with born again Christians I'd expect them to be able to explain why they believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God when it was written by fallible men? And they only have to tie in one religion and there's problems.

 

[CG Didymus]

You mention the 'UHJ'. How many members are there in this group?

That is the World leaders of the Baha'i Faith... The Universal House of Justice. It is nine men, no women, which someday they say will become obvious why that is. I think that each community in a country elects delegates, who then elect delegates to represent that country, who then elect which nine Baha'i men get to be on the UHJ. There's lots of stuff online pro and con about how they are doing.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe I have heard it from churches as well. It is usually based upon a verse in Revelations that only refers to that book.

I think it is important as a Baha'i beliefs, because then they can more easily give a reason why Christian doctrines and beliefs are wrong, and why it took Baha'u'llah to "unseal" the book and give a "true" interpretation of the Bible. Which of course makes him the return of Christ.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is the World leaders of the Baha'i Faith... The Universal House of Justice. It is nine men, no women, which someday they say will become obvious why that is. I think that each community in a country elects delegates, who then elect delegates to represent that country, who then elect which nine Baha'i men get to be on the UHJ. There's lots of stuff online pro and con about how they are doing.

A good thought from my Baha'i perspective is that the Universal House of Justice is a body of elected representatives, as there are no leaders in the Baha'i Faith.

As a body they have Authority of the Covernant and it is worth reading the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice.

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice

An extract.

".. The members of the Universal House of Justice, designated by Bahá’u’lláh “the Men of Justice”, “the people of Bahá who have been mentioned in the Book of Names”, “the Trustees of God amongst His servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries”, shall in the discharge of their responsibilities ever bear in mind the following standards set forth by Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Cause of God:

“In the conduct of the administrative affairs of the Faith, in the enactment of the legislation necessary to supplement the laws of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the members of the Universal House of Justice, it should be borne in mind, are not, as Bahá’u’lláh’s utterances clearly imply, responsible to those whom they represent, nor are they allowed to be governed by the feelings, the general opinion, and even the convictions of the mass of the faithful, or of those who directly elect them. They are to follow, in a prayerful attitude, the dictates and promptings of their conscience. They may, indeed they must, acquaint themselves with the conditions prevailing among the community, must weigh dispassionately in their minds the merits of any case presented for their consideration, but must reserve for themselves the right of an unfettered decision. ‘God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth’, is Bahá’u’lláh’s incontrovertible assurance. They, and not the body of those who either directly or indirectly elect them, have thus been made the recipients of the divine guidance which is at once the life-blood and ultimate safeguard of this Revelation.”"

So as an elected body, they are our guides.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

If I can research it but not test it, it sounds like it's nothing more than, "Listen to the opinions of these people and if you agree with them, then you've verified it."

they also do not understand what it takes to make a rational argument for their beliefs. At least I have as of yet to see one do so.

When I was first interested in finding "The Truth", which right there meant religious and spiritual truth... something beyond this physical plane... everybody had a different "The Truth". And I, naively, believed several of them, and experienced their truth.

Born again Christianity was one of them. I hadn't read the Bible, but they told me what it was all about... which was Jesus. So I kind of was already to "find" Jesus everywhere in the Hebrew Bible. It all made sense. I could feel the power and love of God and Jesus. Could feel the Holy Spirit working in my heart. I could also feel an evil, negative force, that doggone Satan, trying to screw with me. After three months of feeling awesome, I started to doubt. Which grew into, "Geez, this stuff is such a crock! God created the whole universe about 6000 years ago? The whole world was flooded about 4000 years?" Anyway, I no longer felt the power and love of God.

But they were only one of them. I felt the same power and love in each. And each religious belief was different. What I concluded was that it didn't matter what I believed as long as I believed it. So was what I was feeling real? How could it be when each religion contradicted each other? Now, for some reason, I don't trust any religion. But I understand why believers in any one of them is so passionate about their religion and believes it is true. And, I'd imagine you or people you know have experienced this sort of thing with religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

A good thought from my Baha'i perspective is that the Universal House of Justice is a body of elected representatives, as there are no leaders in the Baha'i Faith.

As a body they have Authority of the Covernant and it is worth reading the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice.

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice

An extract.

".. The members of the Universal House of Justice, designated by Bahá’u’lláh “the Men of Justice”, “the people of Bahá who have been mentioned in the Book of Names”, “the Trustees of God amongst His servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries”, shall in the discharge of their responsibilities ever bear in mind the following standards set forth by Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Cause of God:

“In the conduct of the administrative affairs of the Faith, in the enactment of the legislation necessary to supplement the laws of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the members of the Universal House of Justice, it should be borne in mind, are not, as Bahá’u’lláh’s utterances clearly imply, responsible to those whom they represent, nor are they allowed to be governed by the feelings, the general opinion, and even the convictions of the mass of the faithful, or of those who directly elect them. They are to follow, in a prayerful attitude, the dictates and promptings of their conscience. They may, indeed they must, acquaint themselves with the conditions prevailing among the community, must weigh dispassionately in their minds the merits of any case presented for their consideration, but must reserve for themselves the right of an unfettered decision. ‘God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth’, is Bahá’u’lláh’s incontrovertible assurance. They, and not the body of those who either directly or indirectly elect them, have thus been made the recipients of the divine guidance which is at once the life-blood and ultimate safeguard of this Revelation.”"

So as an elected body, they are our guides.

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

When I was first interested in finding "The Truth", which right there meant religious and spiritual truth... something beyond this physical plane... everybody had a different "The Truth". And I, naively, believed several of them, and experienced their truth.

Born again Christianity was one of them. I hadn't read the Bible, but they told me what it was all about... which was Jesus. So I kind of was already to "find" Jesus everywhere in the Hebrew Bible. It all made sense. I could feel the power and love of God and Jesus. Could feel the Holy Spirit working in my heart. I could also feel an evil, negative force, that doggone Satan, trying to screw with me. After three months of feeling awesome, I started to doubt. Which grew into, "Geez, this stuff is such a crock! God created the whole universe about 6000 years ago? The whole world was flooded about 4000 years?" Anyway, I no longer felt the power and love of God.

But they were only one of them. I felt the same power and love in each. And each religious belief was different. What I concluded was that it didn't matter what I believed as long as I believed it. So was what I was feeling real? How could it be when each religion contradicted each other? Now, for some reason, I don't trust any religion. But I understand why believers in any one of them is so passionate about their religion and believes it is true. And, I'd imagine you or people you know have experienced this sort of thing with religions.

This appears to be a case of believing because you want to believe. And that can be very emotionally rewarding at first. But sooner or later one should live in the real world. By the way, not all Christian beliefs are such low hanging fruit. Though the more extreme versions of Christianity are easily shown to have fatal errors in them, the more moderate ones tend to rely mostly on the teachings of Jesus and he did have some valid lessons.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I thought there was a new Baha'i here on the forum. It's lucky you put "Tony" at the end. "Transmuting Soul" has a nice ring to it. But anyway, Of course it's a great day if the Baha'i Faith is true. But Baha'is do have to make reasonable explanations as to why Baha'u'llah if the fulfillment of every promised one of every major religion. There's some things that are very questionable. If I were debating with born again Christians I'd expect them to be able to explain why they believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God when it was written by fallible men? And they only have to tie in one religion and there's problems.

Well we are made new only to the extent we submit to God doeth as God Willeth.

I see RF has shown me a different path needed to walk. Thus everyday transmutation of our soul is possible, it never ends in this life, as progress is always a forward motion and all the rest is decay setting in.

I see the explanations are more then reasonable. The highest aspiration of any person can be found in what the Message Contains, but that is subject to relative truth.

What changes are we willing to make, especially if we see we have hold of absolute truth? That has been the best thing for me, finding out on RF that truth is relative and no human with faith or scientist with knowledge can know what is absolute truth.

That opens a vision as how to obtain a unity in diversity, a vision many of us have lacked in the past, especially in the 80's and 90's when what is meant by entry in troops, was misunderstood as the need for conversion.

I see Abdu'lbaha did not teach in any way aimed at conversion of faith, but of the abitily to change our inner lives.

Regards Tony