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Featured Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by infrabenji, Jul 15, 2021.

  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Okay, who are these "maids of heaven"? Are they mentioned in any other religion? And one of them appeared to Mírzá Ḥusayn-ʻAlí Núrí? Then other religions talk about the afterlife. Why do the stories contradict? Like with Christianity believing in a heaven and a hell?
     
  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I asked TB about what it says about Noah... that for 950 years he exhorted his people? I think it was in a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi that says it is not his "dispensation". But that years were counted differently? Plus, there is no mention of an ark or a flood. It's a totally different story. Where did it come from? And, is the flood story wrong then? And where did it come from? As you know some people believe it was taken from the Gilgamesh story. What do Baha'is believe?
     
    #2042 CG Didymus, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Hopefully Baha'is are not claiming it is the truth but rather they are saying "I believe it is the truth.": No, we don't say we might be wrong because we believe we are right, since we believe it is the truth.
    I have told you what I consider the evidence and proof, and I just posted it to @samtonga43 again:
    #2036 Trailblazer, Today at 11:04 AM

    What more do you think I or any other Baha'i can do?
    As long as you keep going down the road of prophecies you will never discover the truth about Baha'u'llah, but I cannot stop you from doing that and that is not my job. You are going to do what you want to do. But the question is why do you hope for different results when you keep doing the same thing over and over again? Or maybe you don't expect different results or care if you get them.
     
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  4. WonderingWorrier

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    So what would be a reasonable amount?

    The words are not what they seem to be.
    Like some people think that they are the sheep of the bible.
    But they might just be the cattle of Hell.

    I can explain:

    Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word: Psalm 106:24
    But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord. Psalm 106:25



    And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. Genesis 4:20

    For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. Psalm 84:10

    And thou shalt make fifty taches of brass, and put the taches into the loops, and couple the tent together, that it may be one. Exodus 26:11




    The Quran shows understanding the cattle:


    Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. 25:44

    And do they not see that We do drive rain to parched soil (bare of herbage), and produce therewith crops, providing food for their cattle and themselves? Have they not the vision? 32:27

    Eat for yourselves and pasture your cattle: verily in this are signs for men endued with understanding. 20:54

    Verily Allah will admit those who believe and do righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; while those who reject Allah will enjoy (this world) and eat as cattle eat; and the Fire will be their abode. 47:12

    Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). 7:179

    And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water, 19:86


    It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it (grows) the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle. 16:10

    The Day that the sky will be like molten brass, 70:8



    Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! 18:29





    As I said, the words are not what they seem to be.

    Like who actually listens and then eats human dung, and drinks human pi-ss?


    But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to thee to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own pi-ss with you? Isaiah 36:12



    And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. Ezekiel 4:12

    Listen carefully: man was then changed into cattle.

    Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith. Ezekiel 4:15





    Does that not make any sense to you?

    I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Ecclesiastes 3:18




    I can see Hell sounds worse than it really is.
    Yes, they do drink molten brass as the Quran says, because they are brass. Yes like a tent, because they are tent.

    I can also see that Hell is the promised land. The land of milk and honey.



    But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the Lord your God, which have separated you from other people. Leviticus 20:24


    I can see the lion eating straw with the Ox (and the bear).


    Can't you see it?
     
  5. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    To me the stories are Metephor explaining the spiritual reality in an outward material form.

    We have discussed this in detail and I would have offered this talk by Abdu’l-Baha to explain this, "Intelligible Realities and Their Expression through Sensible Forms", this is a link.

    Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

    Regards Tony
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. WonderingWorrier

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    @Tiberius.

    I showed a bit about the land of milk and honey earlier in this thread.
    And its position on the wheel of law (Zodiac).

    Thought maybe a refresher on the explanation about the land of milk and honey might help with now comprehending the explanation of the place called Hell.

    Same thing.
     
  7. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Not quite sure how you can say we can only ever get glimpses of it, but then go on to say with assurance that it is "fluid, mutable, uncertain, and possibly without substance."
     
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Please show me any advancement that came about by purely religious means.
     
  9. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    I certainly haven't found anything which requires God or religion.

    The source still clearly stated that there was a secretary who transcribed what he said in shorthand.

    Yeah, seems like a problem with the webpage, I can't get it either. I checked the history in my browser and the pages I went to a few days ago likewise do not work.

    I don't know.

    How do you know you didn't subconsciously cast a less critical eye over that evidence?
     
  10. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    No, you believing the claims he made is not real world evidence.

    Then why are you here?

    I shall reply to that post here.

    Anyone can get up and say to the world that they are a messenger from God. It means nothing. It must be supported. If there is no support, the claim should be dismissed.

    The evidence for an actual person named Jesus is scant, and the evidence he was divine is almost non-existent.
     
  11. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Because you disagree with them, not based on the content of the passages themselves, but based purely on whether they agree with your preconceived notions.

    And I've told you that if it can't be tested, it's opinion, not evidence. If it only works for you and not for other people, it's opinion, not evidence.

    You can call it evidence as much as you like, but that doesn't make it evidence.
     
  12. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Stop wasting your time with the wordplay. Find another line of evidence for your claims.
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Why doi you keep trying to use a method which I have already said is worthless? Do you think that using the same flawed method again and again will make it better? You're wasting both my time and yours.
     
  14. WonderingWorrier

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    I am sorry for wasting your time.
     
  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    You have to base material life and its pursuits in spiritual virtues and morality.

    This is Faith 101. It is also the builder of civilization, the opposite is the destruction of civilization.

    Regards Tony
     
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  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Who said anything about requirements? Belief in God or religion is a choice.
    If you want to know about stuff like that, I'd ask @Truthseeker9.
    I don't know, but the same applies to things you think you are consciously aware of.

    According to scientific research, your Conscious Mind makes up less than 10 percent of your total brain function. That means that the Subconscious or unintentional aspect of your mind represents around 90 percent of your total brain function.Dec 8, 2014

    Why Your Mind Is Like an Iceberg | HuffPost
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I never said it was.
    I said: "Yes, there is real world evidence that *shows* that to me and other Baha'is."
    Because I got an Alert. I answer all my posts unless there is nothing to say.
    I fully agree.
    Almost all scholars agree that Jesus existed and most agree the crucifixion took place, but they do not agree that Jesus rose from the dead because He didn't and they do not agree that Jesus was God because He wasn't. There is zero evidence that Jesus is God, that is just a religious belief.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I disagree based upon what I believe is the meaning of the content of the passages. Christians disagree with me for the same reason, based upon what they believe is the meaning of the content of the passages.

    My notions are no more preconceived than Christian notions. As usual, you are being prejudiced against me because I am a Baha'i. Christians can do no wrong in your eyes.
    There is no such thing as universal evidence because what is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person. It might be evidence to another person if they both consider it evidence, or it might not be, if they don't both consider it evidence.

    Something is evidence to me because it indicates to me that my beliefs are true.

    Something will not be evidence to you unless it indicates to you that the beliefs are true.
    You can call it not evidence as much as you like, but that doesn't make it not evidence
    You cannot determine what constitutes evidence for another person.

    I will remind you what the definitions of evidence are and they say NOTHING about testing. That is YOUR personal requirement.
    Testable evidence is just something you WANT like a child wants a lollipop.

    Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

    Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

    There is NOTHING about testing in the definitions of evidence.
     
    #2058 Trailblazer, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  19. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    And I already explained it in post #1914,

    It's not a matter of "want," nor does it have anything to do with being atheists/atheism. Whether it's because you don't like it and/or ignorant of how it's properly used, that's just how it is when using philosophy in discussions.

    A better question would be, when having a discussion going back and forth with someone else, why do you think that it's any different saying, "I believe that X is true" or "It's just what I believe" or "It's only my beliefs," compared to simply just saying, "X is true," in regards to truth in reality?

    Just because you cannot prove that what you believe is actually true, does not mean that it's a subjective (truth) belief. There are two types of truth beliefs, subjective and objective truth beliefs. Subjective beliefs are those that cannot be potentially proven to be true or false. Objective beliefs are those that can potentially be proven to be true or false.

    Subjective truth belief: Chocolate ice cream is the best.

    Objective truth belief: Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God.

    A belief is an attitude that something is the case, or that some proposition about the world is true.[1] In epistemology, philosophers use the term "belief" to refer to attitudes about the world which can be either true or false.[2] To believe something is to take it to be true; for instance, to believe that snow is white is comparable to accepting the truth of the proposition "snow is white". However, holding a belief does not require active introspection. For example, few carefully consider whether or not the sun will rise tomorrow, simply assuming that it will. Moreover, beliefs need not be occurrent (e.g. a person actively thinking "snow is white"), but can instead be dispositional (e.g. a person who if asked about the color of snow would assert "snow is white").[2]

    Source


    A truth claim is a proposition or statement that a particular person or belief system holds to be true. The term is commonly used in philosophy in discussions of logic, metaphysics, and epistemology, particularly when discussing the doctrinal statements of religions; however, it is also used when discussing non-religious ideologies.[1]
    Source


    State
    verb
    verb: state; 3rd person present: states; past tense: stated; past participle: stated; gerund or present participle: stating

    1. 1.
      express something definitely or clearly in speech or writing.
      "the report stated that more than 51 percent of voters failed to participate"
    You did in fact, expressed that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of.
     
  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    If things that are called "prophecies" don't come true, then they are not prophecies. If a man claims to have fulfilled a prophecy, it should be very clear and obvious he has. So has Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies of every major, revealed religion? I think most all Baha'is would say, "yes." Then if asked what are some of the prophecies and that's where the problems start. They aren't all that clear and obvious.
     
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