Atheisms and the supernatural

[Unveiled Artist]

A lot of things that people call "supernatural" - ghosts, angels, afterlives, etc. - generally come as a package deal with theistic religion. Anyone who hasn't accepted the god of the religion won't be accepting these other trappings of the religion.

Apart from theistic religion, there's often no good reason to take these sorts of claims seriously.

What about things not on the theistic end such as new age concepts and such?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Just because one is an atheist doesn't mean they won't bump into the supernatural. There are a plethora of stories out there of people that have no beliefs in God, Satan or the angels and demons who get demonically harassed by evil spirits. I would say millions of stories out there. A short perusal of the internet will lead you to untold stories from people who have no belief getting their world upended on a dime. There are also pleasant stories of atheists who actually have the privilege and joy of God entering their lives when they are sincere and looking for him. It's not that he isn't there. The person just has to look and want to be found by him.

Do you believe people can experience the supernatural without the connecting being god (in one form or another)?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What is "the supernatural?"

It's about as nebulous as a term as "gods."

Anything that's not detectable by the senses and assumed to have contextual and/or interaction with people and things. The usage of energy to heal would be, for some, considered supernatural since it's more holistic medicine than regular medicine. Supernatural can mean auras. My brother sees auras around people and some religious people do such as colors that means different emotions. It's not theistic in particular, just a label that describes anything out of the laws of physics that interact and/or exists beyond or outside our five senses.

As for the gods. If the gods you believe in is storms, sun, et cetera, they wouldn't be supernatural since we can experience them. Calling them gods is a personal preference, but supernatural sees an "essence" behind or in them, if one likes. Beyond physics.

 

[ChristineM]

No, it's not. And I have explained countless times why it's not. While all you do is keep repeating that you need not offer any justification for your refusal to acknowledge that it's not except to point to the dictionary, which means nothing, as dictionaries are not based on logic, or reasoned justifications. They are based solely on the use, and misuse of language, by people.

It doesnt matter that you have explained your opinion, the facts are the facts and the fact is, the definition is accurate. The dictionary definition is the accepted definition, if you want to make a difference definition to suite your ego then free to play. Until you manage to get the dictionary definition changed and the approval of all those to whom it applies then all you have is opinion?

Evidence is my justification, as you know
Reading the bible is my justification
Childhood leukemia is my justification
Christians are my justification
The mosquito is my justification
Unnecessary suffering is my justification


Funny, people use language to explain, pity you don't realise they.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The remark, snooty and childish as it is, belies deep-rooted ignorance. It is also very unemphatic and shows a gross lack of understanding for those atheists who do go through harrowing supernatural encounters. The majority of them demonic in nature. I have a feeling if one were to approach you with their experiences you would answer in your same condescending tone as you do here. It is your nature.

Existence is far more grand and broad than your strict and narrow view of things. And to judge others on your narrow and preconceived ideas of life, full of prejudice and ignorance, is well, just that.

But that is not to say that all encounters are of evil. I know of atheists who have turned to serving the living God after having known him personally in their lives.

Here is something for you to think about. Atheism and satanism are synonymous. The word atheist comes from Greek, a - without, theos - god. It literally means without God. Satan means Resistor. Satan is in opposition to God. And in fact many satanists are outright atheists in proclamation. So it is of little wonder that atheism and satanism go hand in hand, they are both in opposition to Jehovah God.

My mother sees spirits. Some, she said, attacked her. Held her down et cetera. She (her friend, her coworker who quit his job because of it) saw a "ghost" (getting this from my mother). What she does is talks to it as she believes these are people who just died people who want to give a message or talk to her about something. People who died here (we are on civil war property) and things like that.

What many christians would call demonic, she just laughs, says they give her messages through people (she almost got robed if she didn't heed the messages among others) and other experiences. She is an atheist (she doesn't believe god exists). Though she experience supernatural (unexplained events separate from the natural world). It wasn't demonic. No one hurt her or anything. Later she realize spirits don't hurt in that manner. I grew up with this and we laugh all the time about it. I'm a bit skeptical but I know she isn't a liar and my experiences nonetheless. But we're both atheist.

So, I would think that atheist can experience supernatural events without it being connected to god or demons, yes?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, it's not. And I have explained countless times why it's not. While all you do is keep repeating that you need not offer any justification for your refusal to acknowledge that it's not except to point to the dictionary, which means nothing, as dictionaries are not based on logic, or reasoned justifications. They are based solely on the use, and misuse of language, by people.

All words in the dictionary???

Dictionary words aren't based on context.

 

[ratiocinator]

A short perusal of the internet will lead you to untold stories from people...

...that support pretty much any sort of nonsense you want to believe in. The Earth is flat, vaccination is evil, aliens abduct people a shove probes up their backsides, homeopathy works, the moon landings were faked, and so on, and so on...

 

[QuestioningMind]

I usually go by strict definition. Some atheists say they are atheists because they don't believe in the supernatural. (Not believing in deities existence and believing in the supernatural sounds like a contradiction to some). Others, less commonly, pose that the reason why atheist don't believe in god is lack of evidence; I hear and read the first point more than the second.

Strictly speaking atheism is simply a lack of belief... the reason for the lack of belief isn't a factor.

Of course for many if not most atheist the reason why they don't believe in God or the supernatural comes down to a lack of verifiable evidence. But again, that doesn't account for ALL atheists.

 

[Eyes to See]

My mother sees spirits. Some, she said, attacked her. Held her down et cetera. She (her friend, her coworker who quit his job because of it) saw a "ghost" (getting this from my mother). What she does is talks to it as she believes these are people who just died people who want to give a message or talk to her about something. People who died here (we are on civil war property) and things like that.

What many christians would call demonic, she just laughs, says they give her messages through people (she almost got robed if she didn't heed the messages among others) and other experiences. She is an atheist (she doesn't believe god exists). Though she experience supernatural (unexplained events separate from the natural world). It wasn't demonic. No one hurt her or anything. Later she realize spirits don't hurt in that manner. I grew up with this and we laugh all the time about it. I'm a bit skeptical but I know she isn't a liar and my experiences nonetheless. But we're both atheist.

So, I would think that atheist can experience supernatural events without it being connected to god or demons, yes?

Your story is not uncommon at all. Atheists of all sorts have had contact with demonic entities. Some very very frightening. Of course if you don't know what you're dealing with you can only speculate or guess.

The Bible claims to be from a supernatural source. From God. And since he has our best interests at heart and he is the Creator of all things we can trust what he says about the spirit realm. The Bible tells us that humans are resting in the sleep of death when they die. But it also teaches that invisible spirits do exist, they were created in heaven with Jehovah God long before humankind existed. And unfortunately many of these spirits rebelled and became wicked angels. These are the ones that people encounter when they have encounters with the supernatural.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your story is not uncommon at all. Atheists of all sorts have had contact with demonic entities. Some very very frightening. Of course if you don't know what you're dealing with you can only speculate or guess.

The Bible claims to be from a supernatural source. From God. And since he has our best interests at heart and he is the Creator of all things we can trust what he says about the spirit realm. The Bible tells us that humans are resting in the sleep of death when they die. But it also teaches that invisible spirits do exist, they were created in heaven with Jehovah God long before humankind existed. And unfortunately many of these spirits rebelled and became wicked angels. These are the ones that people encounter when they have encounters with the supernatural.

If a spirit doesn't hurt another person, what makes it demonic?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

...that support pretty much any sort of nonsense you want to believe in. The Earth is flat, vaccination is evil, aliens abduct people a shove probes up their backsides, homeopathy works, the moon landings were faked, and so on, and so on...

Which has a double edge sword to it. Unless we don't trust people who answer our questions online, what's the difference between what is written and what is said?

Sometimes posters will ask a question and the reply is to search the internet. The internet is no different than the people here and in other forms. Makes me wonder how much we put faith into the Written Words and not the people we speak to.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Strictly speaking atheism is simply a lack of belief... the reason for the lack of belief isn't a factor.

Of course for many if not most atheist the reason why they don't believe in God or the supernatural comes down to a lack of verifiable evidence. But again, that doesn't account for ALL atheists.

What are other reasons do you think people don't believe deities and/or the supernatural exist?

 

[Eyes to See]

If a spirit doesn't hurt another person, what makes it demonic?

Very easy. It does not lead them to Jesus Christ or Jehovah God, the source of light and life. If they don't lead you to what leads to salvation and everlasting life, then they really don't have your best intentions at heart, even if they may act like they do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Very easy. It does not lead them to Jesus Christ or Jehovah God, the source of light and life. If they don't lead you to what leads to salvation and everlasting life, then they really don't have your best intentions at heart, even if they may act like they do.

We have totally different beliefs. I see spirits just as spirits. The nature of them doesn't make them any more demonic than my not believing in jesus christ. I'm not leading people away from jesus, and I'm not sure why a spirit would just because its a spirit.

Are people who don't bring others to christ demonic?

If not, what makes the spirit special in those regards?

 

[PureX]

It doesn't matter that you have explained your opinion, the facts are the facts and the fact is, the definition is accurate.

That is NOT A FACT. And you still have not explained nor justified why you keep asserting that it is. Many, MANY dictionary definitions for words are wildly inaccurate and even patently absurd. But humans adopted the habit of misusing words in that way, and so there they are, listed in the dictionary in all their irrational absurdity.

The dictionary definition is the accepted definition...

And that means exactly nothing.

 

[Eyes to See]

If not, what makes the spirit special in those regards?

I respect your beliefs.

As for people, those who don't lead you to Christ are mostly oblivious to him. They need help to learn who the Christ is as well.

The word demon has an interesting meaning. It comes from the Greek daimon and means "replete with wisdom." Demons are ancient spirits created before the founding of the world. They were once at Jehovah's side but chose to rebel against him along with Satan the Devil. So to be demonic you have to be an ancient spirit created by Jehovah with great knowledge. Their knowledge and power far surpass that of any humans that have only been alive for at most a century or so.

The Bible teaches us that the demons were once in the grand assembly of Jehovah God and know that he is real. That is because they used to be a part of his family in heaven, and they used to see his resplendent face. But that the demons shudder at the very mention of Jehovah God's name. So that just a belief or knowledge of Jehovah God is not sufficient for everlasting life. Many humans have come to know Jehovah but reject him just as the demons. They also hate Jehovah's name and his people:

"You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."-James 2:19.

 

[QuestioningMind]

What are other reasons do you think people don't believe deities and/or the supernatural exist?

I can only speculate. I actually had an atheist tell me the reason she didn't believe in any god or gods is because the magical pixies that she does believe in told her that no god or gods exist. Clearly there is no requirement that an atheist has to to employ reason or logical thinking skills. All they have to do is lack a belief.

 

[Clara Tea]

Theists have a low bar. Arguments that get over that bar are accepted as proof of God.

Atheists have a high bar. The "proofs" of God don't clear the bar.

Theists are awestruck by the complicated, and any time a atheist cannot provide an answer, the theist jumps in and says "it was God." To theists, the complicated way that human (or animal) bodies work is proof of God. If scientists can't understand why the expanding universe is accelerating the expansion, theists say that it is proof of God.

Thus, when Einstein (somewhat of an agnostic) made pages of arguments and calculations to establish the tiny and simple formula E=mc^2, he asserted that God made all science simple. When Schroedinger proposed Quantum Mechanics (the tiny world is governed by stochastic variables), Einstein quipped that "God doesn't play dice with the universe."

Are we going to call Einstein and Fermi idiots? If so, what chance do we have? Just look at who these theists are....we must respect theism.

I walked with my theist friend and stood on a rock pile with him. On the rock pile, he found a rock and asserted that it was proof of the existence of God (God put it there when he asked for a sign). Most would say that the "bar" was a bit low that day.

Other theists (like my aunt who had two stillborn babies then turned strongly toward religion to try to make sense of it and believe that the babies lived on in heaven) joined a Baptist church that spoke in tongues. Disbelievers thought that they were insane (hallucinating) and writhing on the floor babbling (they claimed to be talking in tongues and having a conversation with God). Is it Schizophrenia or proof of God? Certainly many had severe trauma in their lives....the kind that drive sane people crazy.

Who am I to say that one is right and one is wrong? I still must respect theism.

Some theists join cults, and some cults are dangerous.

Marshall Applewhite's Heaven's Gate cult took poison to die so their souls could fly in an alien spacecraft hidden behind the Hale-Bopp comet, pick them up and land them on the comet so they could tour the solar system for eternity. Atheists might argue that they were wrong.

Reverend Jim Jones made a cult that gave poisoned kool aid. They had plenty of practice tests with non-poisonous substances that they said were poison, just to get them all to disbelieve that it was poison. Star Trek's lieutenant Ohura had a brother die at Jonestown in the cult.

The higher "bar" of atheists prevents them from believing in Santa, the tooth fairy, cartoon characters like Fred Flintstone, et al. Without the requirement of proof, one must believe in absolutely everything.

Theists believe that many apostles vouched for the things that Jesus said. But, the bible was written more than a hundred years after the death of Jesus. That would mean that over a hundred years later, all of the apostles would have had to have assembled to help the author (a human divinely inspired) to write the bible. Unless, divine intervention allowed them to know what the apostles heard. Thus, to believe that the apostles correctly recorded their versions in the bible, must be a theist. But if one is using the bible to prove that there is a God, one must believe that there is a God and he guided the person to make the proof that there is a God (a circular argument).

Fear motivates religion. No one wants to burn in hell for eternity (if there is a hell), and many don't want to guess wrong.

Some religions believe in human sacrifices. If they intend to kill me, I'd likely object, because I don't believe as they do.

Some religions don't believe their own religions. For example, the Christian faith believes that God said "thou shalt not kill" yet, their Religious Right choices make war for profit (mammon). Revelation says that if you attack Iraq, you will face God's wrath. Apparently God was right and President W. Bush was wrong....Iraq wasn't behind terrorism.

Who would figure that God would be right?

 

[ChristineM]

That is NOT A FACT. And you still have not explained nor justified why you keep asserting that it is. Many, MANY dictionary definitions for words are wildly inaccurate and even patently absurd. But humans adopted the habit of misusing words in that way, and so there they are, listed in the dictionary in all their irrational absurdity.
And that means exactly nothing.

Open a dictionary and check the FACT

So prove your claim that "Many, MANY dictionary definitions for words are wildly inaccurate and even patently absurd."


I'll wait

Personally i think making up definitions is patently absurd

 

[PureX]

Open a dictionary and check the FACT

There are no "facts" in the dictionary. But you aren't going to understand this. So have a nice day.