• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheism or atheisms?

With many people discussing atheism at the moment, it seems to me that atheism as a singular is the wrong way to think about the concept. Atheisms would be more accurate as the word is polysemous.

Atheism in its 'pure' sense is a negative position, although even what it is a negative of is not necessarily as clear cut as many people think. Words rarely exist in this 'pure' sense outside of a dictionary though.

The meaning of 'theism', like almost all words, has nothing to do with any of the letters in the word, the meaning draws from convention and contextual usage only. Adding a prefix doesn't change this, the word undead doesn't mean alive, for example. Unless a word is onomatopoeic, trying to determine its meaning from its letters is not viable.

Meaning doesn't come from a dictionary, it comes from usage in context. The letters have no intrinsic meaning, just convention. This convention is not, and never has been, uniform as regards atheism though, even in the most general sense, and certainly not in contextual usage. It is a word which developed in the context of Western religion and philosophy, and this 'baggage' doesn't disappear just because the world is now more globalised.

There seem to be multiple atheisms, not a singular atheism.

Also meaning is not purely denotative, and what is signified by a word is not necessarily only it's 'standard' meaning. To say a word can be stripped of the context in which it is used when identifying its meaning is somewhat pointless.

The word atheism may (not does) carry various connotations, implicit assumptions and signified meanings that are collected from the context, both grammatical and situational, in which it is used.

"Mauthner admired Meister Eckhart, a fourteenth-century Christian mystic who died in obscure circumstances after being subjected to trial by the Inquisition, as a true atheist, since Eckhart insisted that nothing could be said of God – not even that God existed." The silence of animals, John Gray

"It is furthermore imperative to put the propaganda of atheism on solid ground. You won't achieve much with the weapons of Marx and materialism, as we have seen. Materialism and religion are two different planes and they don't coincide. If a fool speaks from the heavens and the sage from a factory--they won't understand one another. The sage needs to hit the fool with his stick, with his weapon."
Letter from Gorky to Stalin

The atheism of Mauthner and the atheism of Gorky are not the same thing. Gorky's is a doctrine that must be propagated, it forms part of a larger worldview in which Marxism, materialism and atheism all form fundamental tenets. Mauthner's atheism also forms part of a larger worldview, but his is the idea that language cannot capture anything that is unreal, therefore his atheism is founded on a rejection of the concepts of theism, rather than a disbelief or lack of belief.

Gorky sees atheism as a fundamental political stance to be advocated, Mauthner sees it as a subsidiary point within a broader critique of language:

"Mauthner remarked that history of atheism in the West gradually achieves the aim, which is liberating human minds from the power of the word “God”, unknown in the tradition of the East. Every word is entangled in its own history; it is subject to various transformations of its meaning, until it discovers that behind the curtains there are no contents that can be referred to the real outer reality. " Fritz Mauthner's critique of Locke's idea of God. - H. Jakuszko


When someone talks about 'the atheism of Richard Dawkins', it doesn't simply mean what the dictionary says atheism means. When someone says new atheism, it conveys specific meaning, even though new atheism is neither a new or purely atheist ideology. Dawkins' atheism can be evangelical, but other atheisms could not be collocated with 'evangelical' while maintaining conceptual sense.

Dawkins' atheism is forcefully expressed and incorporates anti-theism and a scientific outlook, none of which are intrinsic to atheism, but are communicated from a knowledge of context for those familiar with his ideas, simply through the word atheism.

As such, there exist multiple atheisms, all gaining their meanings from a broader context. This is not from a misuse of language with 'true meaning' being perverted, just the standard use of language in how it transmits meaning.

Atheisms may be of the general kind, the 'dictionary' atheism, or they can be of a specific contextual kind, in which the meaning conveyed by 'atheism/atheist' is not generalisable to the totality of atheism/atheists. Whenever atheism is professed, its meaning can only be interpreted from its usage, not from a normative abstraction.

Is it more useful to think of multiple atheisms that derive meaning from context then, rather than a singular, denotative, atheism that 'just means....'?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
But... but... but... you can't make things all complicated like that! ;)

Truly, there are several terms in dialogues about religion that ought to be pluralized, to explicitly remind people of their heterogeneity: theisms, atheisms, religions, irreligions, and expanded to Judaisms, Paganisms, and so forth. But our brains like to stick things in boxes, and simplify things into easily-accessible heuristic shorthands. It seems common in internet discussions for people to banter about what the "correct" definition of a term is... as if there is such a thing... rather than aim to understand the various meanings the term has to various people. At times I find this fascinating, at times amusing, and at other times annoying or tiresome.
 
Surely 'atheism' just means 'doesn't believe in god or gods'

What about when it doesn't mean this though? As per some of the examples I mentioned, or alternatively, before the word even meant this at all. The word seems to have more than one meaning both in contemporary and historical usage.

any embellishment can be achieved by adding adjectives.

It can be, and in many cases should be, but this still means there are atheisms. And even when not used with adjectives, it can convey the same meaning as if it had been used with adjectives simply by virtue of the context in which it is used.

Some people would say that individual words mean nothing; meaning only exists at an absolute minimal level of the sentence.

"'Language does not exist; it is an abstractum. That we cannot enter twice the same river,applies also to language." "Language is no object of use,and no tool,it is no object at all, it is nothing but its use. Language is use of language" " Language came into being as a big city, room on room, window on window,flat on flat, house on house,street on street, quarter on quarter. . ." It is here that his insistence on the context comes in. With Frege and Wittgenstein he maintains that the basic unit of meaning is the sentence and that the word gains its meaning from it" On Fritz Mauthner's Critique of Language - Gershon Weiler
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I think most atheists use the word as meaning not a theist. What this is grounded in or why they choose to adopt the lablel is definitely a more complicated matter but I'm not sure we can get anything much out of the definition of the term.

Interesting OP.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I think most atheists use the word as meaning not a theist. What this is grounded in or why they choose to adopt the lablel is definitely a more complicated matter but I'm not sure we can get anything much out of the definition of the term.

Interesting OP.
I think being not a theist is incidental to being an atheist--a consequence, rather than definition. To me, being a theist is about the answer to the question, "Do you believe in gods?"
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Is it more useful to think of multiple atheisms that derive meaning from context then, rather than a singular, denotative, atheism that 'just means....'?

There have been exhustative threads on RF over the definition of atheism and I have been genuinely taken aback at the sheer feriousity with the insistence that atheism is only lack of belief. I do not share this view. I can only deduce that I am not of the same "atheism" as many of the other atheists on RF and that there are multiple atheisms but I don't quite know where the line is drawn.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Another point occurs to me.
Theism is a catchall generic term, an abstraction. Someone who simply believes in God and that's it is a deist, not a theist. Theists all belong to some religion or other.
Those religious beliefs are positive claims of some sort. Claims which could be evidenced. The fact that there is never particularly strong evidence for any of them, and the inherent contradictions are really well evidenced, is why atheism is the rational, default, worldview. Religious people prefer not to believe this, that is Faith. So they invent a lot of confusion about the simple concept of atheism.
Tom
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Surely 'atheism' just means 'doesn't believe in god or gods' any embellishment can be achieved by adding adjectives.
An ism is a system of belief or philosophy. The negation either address the god part of the-ism or the ism part. So it's either a no belief in god or a no-god belief, i.e. belief in no-god. Historically, there is more support for the idea that atheism is a philosophy in itself about that there is no god, not just simply a "lack of belief" in god.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Atheism is a big tent.
It needn't be made plural.
Besides, it would sound weird.
Implicit atheism has a different foundation than explicit atheism. So does weak and strong. In other words, there are at least 3 or 4 different versions of atheism with slightly different definitions and arguments. It's the same in theism. Not all theism is the same.
 
Religious people prefer not to believe this, that is Faith. So they invent a lot of confusion about the simple concept of atheism.

Religious people undoubtedly do try to 'monkey around' with the concept of atheism for ideological reasons, but this doesn't mean that this is the source of all ambiguity as regards the term.

Atheists also do use, and have historically used, the word to convey different meanings. As have people of various persuasions for non-ideological reasons.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Implicit atheism has a different foundation than explicit atheism. So does weak and strong. In other words, there are at least 3 or 4 different versions of atheism with slightly different definitions and arguments. It's the same in theism. Not all theism is the same.
But they all fit neatly under the single term, "atheism".
We wouldn't use "Christianities" or "Islams" just because they both include significantly different theisms within those labels.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
With many people discussing atheism at the moment, it seems to me that atheism as a singular is the wrong way to think about the concept. Atheisms would be more accurate as the word is polysemous.

Atheism in its 'pure' sense is a negative position, although even what it is a negative of is not necessarily as clear cut as many people think. Words rarely exist in this 'pure' sense outside of a dictionary though.

The meaning of 'theism', like almost all words, has nothing to do with any of the letters in the word, the meaning draws from convention and contextual usage only. Adding a prefix doesn't change this, the word undead doesn't mean alive, for example. Unless a word is onomatopoeic, trying to determine its meaning from its letters is not viable.

Meaning doesn't come from a dictionary, it comes from usage in context. The letters have no intrinsic meaning, just convention. This convention is not, and never has been, uniform as regards atheism though, even in the most general sense, and certainly not in contextual usage. It is a word which developed in the context of Western religion and philosophy, and this 'baggage' doesn't disappear just because the world is now more globalised.

There seem to be multiple atheisms, not a singular atheism.

Also meaning is not purely denotative, and what is signified by a word is not necessarily only it's 'standard' meaning. To say a word can be stripped of the context in which it is used when identifying its meaning is somewhat pointless.

The word atheism may (not does) carry various connotations, implicit assumptions and signified meanings that are collected from the context, both grammatical and situational, in which it is used.

"Mauthner admired Meister Eckhart, a fourteenth-century Christian mystic who died in obscure circumstances after being subjected to trial by the Inquisition, as a true atheist, since Eckhart insisted that nothing could be said of God – not even that God existed." The silence of animals, John Gray

"It is furthermore imperative to put the propaganda of atheism on solid ground. You won't achieve much with the weapons of Marx and materialism, as we have seen. Materialism and religion are two different planes and they don't coincide. If a fool speaks from the heavens and the sage from a factory--they won't understand one another. The sage needs to hit the fool with his stick, with his weapon."
Letter from Gorky to Stalin

The atheism of Mauthner and the atheism of Gorky are not the same thing. Gorky's is a doctrine that must be propagated, it forms part of a larger worldview in which Marxism, materialism and atheism all form fundamental tenets. Mauthner's atheism also forms part of a larger worldview, but his is the idea that language cannot capture anything that is unreal, therefore his atheism is founded on a rejection of the concepts of theism, rather than a disbelief or lack of belief.

Gorky sees atheism as a fundamental political stance to be advocated, Mauthner sees it as a subsidiary point within a broader critique of language:

"Mauthner remarked that history of atheism in the West gradually achieves the aim, which is liberating human minds from the power of the word “God”, unknown in the tradition of the East. Every word is entangled in its own history; it is subject to various transformations of its meaning, until it discovers that behind the curtains there are no contents that can be referred to the real outer reality. " Fritz Mauthner's critique of Locke's idea of God. - H. Jakuszko


When someone talks about 'the atheism of Richard Dawkins', it doesn't simply mean what the dictionary says atheism means. When someone says new atheism, it conveys specific meaning, even though new atheism is neither a new or purely atheist ideology. Dawkins' atheism can be evangelical, but other atheisms could not be collocated with 'evangelical' while maintaining conceptual sense.

Dawkins' atheism is forcefully expressed and incorporates anti-theism and a scientific outlook, none of which are intrinsic to atheism, but are communicated from a knowledge of context for those familiar with his ideas, simply through the word atheism.

As such, there exist multiple atheisms, all gaining their meanings from a broader context. This is not from a misuse of language with 'true meaning' being perverted, just the standard use of language in how it transmits meaning.

Atheisms may be of the general kind, the 'dictionary' atheism, or they can be of a specific contextual kind, in which the meaning conveyed by 'atheism/atheist' is not generalisable to the totality of atheism/atheists. Whenever atheism is professed, its meaning can only be interpreted from its usage, not from a normative abstraction.

Is it more useful to think of multiple atheisms that derive meaning from context then, rather than a singular, denotative, atheism that 'just means....'?
It is very informative post on Atheisms. I like the post though I don't agree with any form of Atheism.
Regards
 
We wouldn't use "Christianities" or "Islams" just because they both include significantly different theisms within those labels.

Perhaps we would be better to use these habitually. Acknowledging their diversity explicitly might change the way people think about Christians or Muslims and lead to a greater tolerance and understanding (even if they sound a bit funny at first).

Am not sure how Christians and Muslims would like this though...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Perhaps we would be better to use these habitually. Acknowledging their diversity explicitly might change the way people think about Christians or Muslims and lead to a greater tolerance and understanding (even if they sound a bit funny at first).

Am not sure how Christians and Muslims would like this though...
They'd likely be as resistant as I.
The change would serve no useful purpose.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I think in most cases the usage is defined by the user. Outside of that usage has to be determine by the context of what is written. There is nothing special about the word itself, it's pretty much the same for all words.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I think being not a theist is incidental to being an atheist--a consequence, rather than definition. To me, being a theist is about the answer to the question, "Do you believe in gods?"
I think I agree with that; most of the atheists I encounter have a different view though. Granted that here is the only place I ever meet anyone who cares about such things.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
But they all fit neatly under the single term, "atheism".
We wouldn't use "Christianities" or "Islams" just because they both include significantly different theisms within those labels.
Sure. I agree that the "-s" isn't necessary. Atheism is the umbrella for the different types of atheisms, so we don't have to say that someone is part of atheisms, but it's not grammatically incorrect to use the term atheisms (with -s) in a discussion like this, just for the purpose to point out that there are different types.

In discussion about Christianity, it's not grammatically wrong to talk about different kinds of Christianities. There's even a DVD series made by The Great Courses, with Prof Ehrman, about the "Lost Christianities." I can only assume he knows the English language well enough to use it properly.
 
Top