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Atheism is a lie

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Maryanne

New Member
Here is an example:

Suppose that we could speak with an embryo in his mother's womb and that you would tell him that the embryonic life is only a short one after which follows a real, long life. What would the embryo answer? He would say what you atheists answer to us, when we speak to you about paradise and hell. He would say that the life in the mother's womb is the only one and that everything else is religious foolishness.
But if the embryo could think, he would say to himself "Here arms grow on me. I do not need them. I cannot even stretch them. Why do they grow? Perhaps they grow for a future stage of my existence, in which I will have to work with them. Legs grow but I have to keep them bent toward my chest. Why do they grow? Probably life in a large world follows, where I will have to walk. Eyes grow, although I am surrounded by perfect darkness and don't need them. Why do I have eyes? Probably a world with light and colours will follow."
So if the embryo would reflect on his own development, he would know about life outside of his mother's womb, without having seen it. It is the same with us. As long as we are young, we have vigour but no mind to use it properly. When, with years, we have grown in knowledge and wisdom, the hearse waits to take us to the grave.
Why was it necessary to grow in knowledge and wisdom that we can use no more? Why do arms, legs and eyes grow on an embryo? IT IS FOR WHAT FOLLOWS. So it is with us here. We grow in experience, knowledge and wisdom for what follows. We are prepared to serve on a higher level that follows death.

When an engineer has built a bridge, the fact that a cat can pass over the bridge is no proof that the bridge is good. A train must pass over it to prove its strength. The fact that you can be an atheist when everything goes well does not prove the truth of atheism. It does not hold up in moments of great crisis.

I believe in God like I believe in the sun. Not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.

:mrgreen:
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
what if the bridge is a cat bridge?

There are many types of bridges. They don't all have to carry trains.

and faith doesn't always stand up to moments of great crisis, in fact its such moments that generally do faith in.

8)

wa:do
 
Maryanne said:
Here is an example:

Suppose that we could speak with an embryo in his mother's womb and that you would tell him that the embryonic life is only a short one after which follows a real, long life. What would the embryo answer? He would say what you atheists answer to us, when we speak to you about paradise and hell. He would say that the life in the mother's womb is the only one and that everything else is religious foolishness.
The problem with this analogy is you forget that it would be foolishness for one embryo to say to the other "beyond the womb is paradise and hell!". The 'atheist embryo' realizes that the 'religious embryo' has no idea what he/she is talking about.

But if the embryo could think, he would say to himself "Here arms grow on me. I do not need them. I cannot even stretch them. Why do they grow? Perhaps they grow for a future stage of my existence, in which I will have to work with them. Legs grow but I have to keep them bent toward my chest. Why do they grow? Probably life in a large world follows, where I will have to walk. Eyes grow, although I am surrounded by perfect darkness and don't need them. Why do I have eyes? Probably a world with light and colours will follow."
The classic filling in the gaps argument. Arms and legs and whatnot may serve any number of purposes....the fact that the embryo does not know what purposes eyes serve does not mean there must be a heaven or hell. You are basically saying, "the embryo does not know why he has eyes, therefore he knows exactly why he has eyes--for a paradise/hell outside the womb!". Remember, we already know this assumption would be completely wrong...life outside the womb is not paradise/hell....the 'religious embryos' who believed this would be disillusioned.


So if the embryo would reflect on his own development, he would know about life outside of his mother's womb, without having seen it.
I agree that in principle, if we humans reflect enough on ourselves we can come reasonably close to knowing what happens to us after death. For example, we know that all our experiences and our consciousness comes from our brain, and not some spiritual magic (look at all the various brain disorders--notice that when the brain is impaired, so is conscioussness/thought/memory). When the neurons in the brain no longer fire, we can know that one cannot experience things like consciousness or memories or whatever after we die.

It is the same with us. As long as we are young, we have vigour but no mind to use it properly. When, with years, we have grown in knowledge and wisdom, the hearse waits to take us to the grave.
Why was it necessary to grow in knowledge and wisdom that we can use no more? Why do arms, legs and eyes grow on an embryo? IT IS FOR WHAT FOLLOWS. So it is with us here. We grow in experience, knowledge and wisdom for what follows. We are prepared to serve on a higher level that follows death.
Experience, knowledge and wisdom are not acquired for what follows--they are acquired for this life, and they are very useful to us (as opposed to an embryo's legs, which are not useful in the womb).

When an engineer has built a bridge, the fact that a cat can pass over the bridge is no proof that the bridge is good. A train must pass over it to prove its strength. The fact that you can be an atheist when everything goes well does not prove the truth of atheism. It does not hold up in moments of great crisis.
If this is true, it proves the fact that religion's main purpose is psychological, not realistic. Rather than creating a delusion for myself that I like better than reality, I prefer to stick with reality and learn to accept it.

I believe in God like I believe in the sun. Not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.
Ultimately, people believe in God for the same reasons the Greeks believed in their gods--it helps explain what we do not understand (yet), and provides comfort to us, as even a poor explaination is better than none. This is unfortunate, since people resist the better explainations when they come around.
 

tumble_weed

Member
Mr_Spinkles: A+

ehh...

if an embrio for the sake of your argument was extremly smart it could work out that (without goint into details of the female anatomy :X) these muscles will push me out the hole here....and take me somewhere...then the embrio can proove that it will be taken to another world...there is no proof like that for people, who don't live in wombs...there is no hole that we can say "that hole when we have accquired enough knowledge to go through will open up and allow us to go into heaven"

o_o

ugh just read Mr_Spinkles' post...
 

Maryanne

New Member
In many cases, faith is the only thing that holds you together in times of great crisis. Some people don't have family to turn to, some turn to drugs or become depressed and even suicidal. If you know in your heart that God loves you unconditionally, then you get filled with great peace and contentment and love all the time in your heart and soul (and I don't mean for 5minutes, or for 2 weeks). You can only get that if you make the effort of praying with your heart to God (and I don't mean the traditional prayers either) why? because He gave you the choice to choose Him or reject Him. Jesus says in the bible: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" and in another " but whoever rejects the Son will not see life"

For a long time I didn't really think there was anything after death and if there was, I didn't know what it was. But as I got older, being unsure of the afterlife started weighing heavily upon me. Living this life and thinking that this was it and that death was what I had to look forward to at the end of my life, doing helpful things to people, being kind to others, getting ahead in my life and career would at the end mean nothing at all. I started becoming depressed with the life. no meaning to it, so why bother living at all? For the first time I started praying to God (if you could call it prayer, I didn't know what prayer was) every night and with each heartfelt prayer, the burden of depression and the no meaning to life feelings lifted. I felt the love of God in my own heart and hope and meaning. But just like if a car runs out of petrol and it can't keep driving, so it is with heartfelt prayer, if you don't keep praying, you can't keep experiencing God and the love of God.

What helped me also was The Blessed Virgin Mary's messages of Medjugorje:

"Today again I am calling you to complete conversion, which is difficult for those who have not chosen God. God can give you everything that you seek from Him. But you seek God only when sicknesses, problems, and difficulties come to you and you think that God is far from you and is not listening and does not hear your prayers. No, dear children, that is not the truth. When you are far from God, you cannot receive graces because you do not seek them with a firm faith." (January 25, 1988)


"Open your heart and offer it to me, and fear nothing. I will be with you and will teach you how to put Jesus in the first place. I will teach you to love Him and to belong to Him completely. Comprehend, dear children, that without my Son there is no salvation. You should become aware that He is your beginning and your end. Only with this awareness can you be happy and merit eternal life." (March 18, 2002)


"I call you to make a choice. God gave you free will to choose life or death. Listen to my messages with the heart that you may become cognizant of what you are to do and how you will find the way to life. My children, without God you can do nothing; do not forget this even for a single moment. For, what are you and what will you be on earth, when you will return to it again. Do not anger God, but follow me to life." (March 18, 2003)

www.medjugorje.org/olmpage.htm

:goodjob:
 

Alaric

Active Member
Maryanne, if you had had the same experiences in a different country practicing a different religion, you would have 'discovered the truth' of that one instead. What if you took apart and analysed exactly what feelings they were that you had, what it was specifically that comforted you - then you might hit upon something that really did have something to do with the truth. All you've done now is allowed the little you knew of Christianity to distort the discoveries you were making.
 

Maryanne

New Member
With the embroyo example, if the embryo could think, he would think why he has arms, legs and eyes growing when he has no use for them in the womb. It might occur to him that maybe there's a life outside of the one he's already in where he might be needing them. Without yet having seen the outside world, the fact that he's got arms, legs and eyes growing would be a sign to him of the life to come.
Don't you think that nature is a banquet prepared for us? We have tomatoes, peaches, apples, milk, honey etc... Who has prepared all these things for mankind? Nature is blind. If you believe in no God, how can you explain that blind nature succeeded in preparing just the things that we need in such plentitude and variety?

As for what is was that specifically comforted me?
The peace and love that came in my heart when I started opening up to God through prayer. The burden of depression that lifted and coming to know of God's unconditional love. The bible says: " Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." and in another "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Some people don't have family to turn to and to love them, and by knowing that God loves them unconditionally and feeling that love in the heart, it might keep them from becoming depressed and feeling all alone and getting hooked on drugs.





:lol:
 
Maryanne said:
With the embroyo example, if the embryo could think, he would think why he has arms, legs and eyes growing when he has no use for them in the womb. It might occur to him that maybe there's a life outside of the one he's already in where he might be needing them. Without yet having seen the outside world, the fact that he's got arms, legs and eyes growing would be a sign to him of the life to come.
First of all, if God exists, He did not give embryos the ability to think, so clearly they are not meant to know what lies ahead. Secondly, you still have not addressed the fact that all the embryos who believed heaven/hell awaited them in the next world would turn out to be wrong. Finally, there is nothing in us that we truly have no use for in this life that can only be accounted for in some other world beyond death (unless, of course, our tonsils are needed in the next life :lol: ).

Don't you think that nature is a banquet prepared for us? We have tomatoes, peaches, apples, milk, honey etc... Who has prepared all these things for mankind?
Is it the same person who prepared malaria, colon cancer, earthquakes, famine, and that delicious flesh eating bacteria? Yummy!

Nature is blind. If you believe in no God, how can you explain that blind nature succeeded in preparing just the things that we need in such plentitude and variety?
If you do not believe in Zeus, how can you explain those zig-zagging bright things that cause so much fear during rainstorms? Again, this is the classic "filling in the gaps" argument....that which we do not understand is given a spiritual explaination since we do not have a natural one yet (actually, we probably do have natural explainations, but your question is not really specific enough for me to answer).

As for what is was that specifically comforted me?
The peace and love that came in my heart when I started opening up to God through prayer. The burden of depression that lifted and coming to know of God's unconditional love. The bible says: " Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." and in another "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Some people don't have family to turn to and to love them, and by knowing that God loves them unconditionally and feeling that love in the heart, it might keep them from becoming depressed and feeling all alone and getting hooked on drugs.
Some children who grow up in difficult conditions where their parents do not love them create imaginary friends who love them. It is touching, but it does not make them real.
 
All that has been proven is that Aethiesm is not your viewpoint.
I understand what you are saying about the embryo thing, but it is simply an analogy, nothing more, nothing less.
As far as the enitre life after death, I don't know. I am not dead. I find it highly likely that death is 'system down' and that there is nothing over the stars. if there is a soul,, then it is limited to the rules of the flesh when we are alive, due to, as Mr.Sprinkles pointed out, when you are unconscious, well frankly it is a death like state. i suppose that it is possible that when we are alive, your soul is hardwired into your brain so to speak. but from what I have seen, if you break a circuit, it is simply broken.
EDIT: I personally believe militant aethiesm to be as silly as militant religion. to discard the 'supernatural' out of hand is as silly as wholeheartedly embracing it without question. both are born of a desire to be right.
There are waves of light that could not be percieved until recently. just because we aren't aware of something right now does not mean we will not be eventually. the much vaunted aethiest's shield of science is all about progress, but it seems most aethiests want to overlook that factoid. can a soul be proven or disproven? nope. but, 200 years ago, if you wne ton ranting about how there was this thing called ultraviolet, well... folks would have thought you were a little nuts. reason dictates skepticism, but not bullheaded denial or gullible belief.
 

Maryanne

New Member
First of all, if God exists, He did not give embryos the ability to think, so clearly they are not meant to know what lies ahead.

That is whyI said 'for example only'.

Some children who grow up in difficult conditions where their parents do not love them create imaginary friends who love them. It is touching, but it does not make them real.

Imaginary friends cannot give you eternal life and save your soul.. Only God can. :talk:
 
Maryanne said:
Imaginary friends cannot give you eternal life and save your soul.. Only God can. :talk:
Sure they can! My imaginary friend, Pickles the Humpless Camel, can do all those things, plus he tells me to burn things.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Maryanne-

the point of Athiesm is that God is just another imaginary friend. He can't give you anything if he doesn't exist. :lol:

Personally I prefer to be a sceptic than an unbeliever. The believer and the unbeliever both have thier minds made up, no matter what the contrary evidence may be. The sceptic is open to the evidence for or against an idea and makes a decision based on the best evidence. 8)

wa:do
 
painted wolf said:
The believer and the unbeliever both have thier minds made up, no matter what the contrary evidence may be. The sceptic is open to the evidence for or against an idea and makes a decision based on the best evidence.
I am open to evidence, I just haven't seen any. We might as well say people who don't believe in mermaids 'already have their minds made up'.
 
Firstly, Maryanne, I am sorry to see that there aren't more believers on this post. It seems you are defending your beliefs against a company of 'non-believers.' I also have to agree with Mr.Spinkles when he says that religion's main purpose is psychological. You say that you only 'found' God later in life, after you thought about death. Did you ever think that perhaps your belief is just protection agains your fear of death? Perhaps the fact that you do not know what happens after death has caused you to adopt a faith to explain it, and ease your fear.

Like Fra.Morelia, I also do not like militant Atheism. It gives us as bad a reputation as militant Christians. Your post is titled "Atheism is a Lie," but how do you know; and who is lying to who? If your allegation is correct, then people like me are only lying to ourselves. This is more acceptable, in my mind, then the scenario in which you are wrong; the scenario which I believe is correct. Your entire church is the liar, and just think about how many people they lied to; how many people are affected by their lie. If you want a very interesting and well-written read: 'The Da Vinci Code' by Dan Brown.

"The peace and love that came in my heart when I started opening up to God through prayer."

If God is an all-loving character, why didn't you feel this so-called love and peace before you started believing and praying? Why don't I feel it? We are all God's children, no?

Just some things to think about.
 
Hmmm, after some careful reflection, it seems perhaps I can be a bit of a militant atheist sometimes.....and I definitely do not want to be a "militant" anything. I do love debate, but perhaps I should be more tactful....sometimes I forget that debating about God should probably be treated more delicately than debating about other things.

So to Maryanne, and everyone else out there, if I have been less than courteous in our discussions, I apologize.
 
well, Mr.Sprinkles, we all have our views. you come off as zealous sometimes, which I just thought was cutely ironic :p
you are definately a bright guy, but in my opinion, aethiests are just as shut off as zealots.in fact, most aethiests preach their creed as if it were religion, attempting to save folks, as it were, from their faith. again, cutely ironic.
I am a skeptic, not a disbeliever. well, as far as the main faith go, yes I am a disbeliever. but that is due to my general belief that the main religions are corruptions of natural order, frankly. they teach against being human, in my opinion being human is the best thing since sliced bread. even if we don't matter that much. which I don't think we do. the universe is too big for it to have been made to amuse us.
 
Hey maryanne,

Good on you, your embryo analogy really got me thinking. I am really glad for you that you have found peace and inspiration in your faith.
To all those children who are talking about cat bridges and cant see the forest from the trees, i think its past your bedtime.
Atheism is a lie from an atheist to himself as well as those he speaks about it to.
You see a mind is like a parachute, it only works when you open it. Atheists just put their life in a box. Birth, breath in and out a few million times then drop off the perch. nothing meaningful before during or after their lifespan.
Now life is about risks. You get out of bed in the morning you could die any number of ways before you even get out the door. Thats the same for christians and atheists alike.
ONLY if a christian is headed for eternal paradise after death thats great.
WHEREAS an atheist is bound for hell.
or as the atheists say believe what you like youll only be pushing up daisies. Well youve gained nothing and lost nothing. In the christian belief, the christian has gained everything and the atheist has lost everything.
Christianity isnt 100% 10/10 proven on paper thats why its a faith. Not a blind faith because there is strong evidence for what we believe. But there is nothing lost in being a chritstian yet everything to gain.
go on atheists you have nothing to lose, find meaning to your life and release i from the box you placed it in.

i dare you
 

Pah

Uber all member
chamberlain said:
...

Atheism is a lie from an atheist to himself as well as those he speaks about it to.

....

i dare you

For Atheism to be a lie, there must be a truth that contradicts what an Atheist holds. What may be subjective proof to a Christian is not objective truth to an Atheist. A tribal sky-god holds no truth.
 
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