1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Atheism doesn't exist?:)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rabbi Daniel, Jan 12, 2020.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,774
    Ratings:
    +520
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    I'll ask him about it. I doubt he is unaware of it, he is an Atheist that keeps updated with all this stuff.
     
  2. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    4,395
    Ratings:
    +3,554
    Religion:
    none
    Nope. Obviously.
    There is no god question on my mind. It's been settled.
    The only question that remains is why believers can't understand or at least accept that.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    27,220
    Ratings:
    +21,691
    Religion:
    None
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    4,395
    Ratings:
    +3,554
    Religion:
    none
    I don't understand. What has he Torah or Gospels or Quran or idols to do with deism?
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    33,602
    Ratings:
    +19,866
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Tell me, do you believe that Bigfoot exists? Or that fairies exist? I don't. Now if someone gave me evidence that Bigfoot existed I could easily change my mind. It would take quite a bit more evidence to convince me that fairies exist. And since a god is even more magical than fairies it would take quite a bit of evidence to convince me that a god exists. I am always open to evidence but the rational way to act is to have non-belief in extreme claims until evidence for that claim is given. I am not saying that it is impossible for god exist therefore he does not exist, nor is that saying that it is possible that a god exists. We simply do not know enough to even say that.

    Find me some substantial evidence and I can change my mind Until then the god concept is with the Bigfoot, Yeti, and fairies.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    33,602
    Ratings:
    +19,866
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Far too often when a person accuses there professor of teaching this sort of thing what actually happened is that the person misunderstood the professor. I am sure that some professors make that sort of foolish error. But they would be the very rare exception.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  7. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    4,395
    Ratings:
    +3,554
    Religion:
    none
    Interesting article but it still doesn't answer why many kids are easily phased by a religious upbringing and others seem to be immune to superstitious beliefs; or were those beliefs came from in the first place.
     
  8. Vee

    Vee Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +1,867
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    I guess it's only natural that even in the minds of those who are sure, there is always a tiny little place for doubt. One can always ask "what if..."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros Coincidentia oppositorum
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    9,942
    Ratings:
    +3,429
    Religion:
    Dual-aspect pantheist
    Labels... people usually tend to put their own spin and definition on them and then apply these "labels" to themselves for identity. I've learned that even though labels are shortcuts into understanding another person, their definition of the label usually tells more.

    When it comes to not believing in God 100%, I believe you're wrong. I've met people who are completely unaware or interested in the concept, philosophy, or thoughts about God. And really to say that it's rare or impossible it's a reflection of your personal beliefs about the topic, not really being any fact of reality.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    10,223
    Ratings:
    +6,150
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    Yes, it is a philosophical question. Specifically, it is a metaphysical question, dealing with the question what is the ultimate truth of reality. It is the view that ultimate reality lacks a God. And inherent in that question, is a theological view of what God is, in order to evaluate it.

    But as you can see right here you already expressed a theological view by calling God "supernatural". You had an image of God as "outside nature", and that is a theological view, regardless if you believe God exists or not.

    You started with a theological image of God as "supernatural", and chose to discard it based on philosophically reasoning that natural systems don't need a supernatural God. The entire question had theology present within it at its heart.

    What if your theology about God did not define God outside of nature? Then the evidence you presented as disproving God, affirms God. You see, you cannot escape it being theological in nature. Questions of ultimate reality are theological, or at the least include it, whether we like it or not.
     
    #50 Windwalker, Jan 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  11. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,394
    Ratings:
    +1,320
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Of course, if s/he says s/he doesn't believe in ANY god.

    Someone who doesn't believe in any god BUT 'this' one is not atheist, but a theist.

    I know, I know...but I didn't invent the concept OR the word. ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,394
    Ratings:
    +1,320
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    WE'RE playing the games?

    I don't think a theist came up with the 'you are atheist too...we just believe in one less god than you do."

    As for me, I couldn't care less. I mean, I do believe that my ideas regarding God are correct, but I can't prove that and have no intention of doing so....and I resent greatly the idea that some atheist can demand that I PROVE my beliefs about God are correct when I have made no such claim.

    Remember; "I believe in God" is NOT the same claim as "GOD IS WHO I SAY HE IS AND YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TOO!"

    The only thing I have to do to prove the first is repeat it. "I believe..." There you go. Proven. I believe. I said so. I don't have to prove anything to any atheist in order for me to continue to believe.

    The second claim? Well, that's a whole 'nuther story, and if someone made that claim to me, I'd demand proof, too.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  13. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    10,223
    Ratings:
    +6,150
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    Obviously why? Can you address the actual points I cited? I'd like to hear your specific reasonings against what I said.

    How did you settle the question? Did you look at it? If you did, then you were having a question about God.

    What believers are you referring to? What do they believe about God? What view of God is it that you hold in your mind in your rejection of it? Do all believers see God that same way? Can you answer these questions?
     
  14. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,394
    Ratings:
    +1,320
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    When I read/listen to atheists who go into diatribes against the god of the OT, or demand to know why God permits evil (like volcanoes, tidal waves, tornadoes and mass murderers) I notice that they aren't mad at the believers, but at the deity they believe in. If they were angry at PEOPLE only, they would acknowledge that since religions are man made, that without religion men would find another reason to be nasty to one another.

    Instead, and almost universally, the claim is that without religion the world would be a matter of people dancing around campfires singing "Imagine." That's not being mad at the people. That's being mad at the deity.
     
  15. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,394
    Ratings:
    +1,320
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Quite a few people ARE mad at Harry Potter. They want to burn those books...witchcraft, don'tcha know. But if you mention J.K. Rowling, they'll go...'who?"

    I know a few of these. Sang with 'em in a Methodist choir.

    I know, I know...surprised me, too.

    Point is, It doesn't really matter if the deity one is mad at actually exists. If you are mad at it, YOU are mad at it. (general 'you')
     
  16. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,743
    Ratings:
    +572
    Religion:
    Writer of the Mune Shinri (Aiken religion)
    Depends on the definition, really.

    I kinda believe there are two things:
    1. True atheism - They don't happen to believe in god/Gods but make no claims that such don't exist (this is wrongly called "soft atheism"). They are simply religiously indifferent.
    2. Anti-theism - Actively opposed to the notion of deities.

    The reason, I don't call "hard" atheism hard, is because it's actually more difficult to actually convince anyone of your position.

    Suppose you go to an old house with some friends. One of them is actually indifferent to ghosts. The other one loudly repeats "there's no such thing as ghosts." One of these seems to convincingly not be afraid of ghosts. The other is fooling nobody.
     
  17. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,825
    Ratings:
    +3,009
    Religion:
    Not yours.
    It's more of a "I don't know, so I'm OK with that" position.

    But, honestly... We're really just guessing here at what "creator" means. We're an atom in a giant "organism" of the universe that is at such a macro (e.g. large) scale that we absolutely have no idea what that organism looks like. :D

    There are stars that are the size of a million of our 'Suns' and there is vast incomprehensible amounts of space between them until we hit the "heat wall" that we can't see past. And, in theory, that's just one of many of those -- it's completely possible that that entire visible universe is just part of a multiverse where it is just an atom in that space. :D However, with current technology we can't see past the big bang heat signature and effectively are blind to anything beyond it.

    Anyway, a God, like one in The Bible depicts is nearly impossible and from our perspective the creating agent would be very much impossible to be aware of or observe. Atheism doesn't deny a creating agent/force either, it just doesn't accept one until we find it.
     
    #57 Mindmaster, Jan 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  18. Wurlitzer Oz

    Wurlitzer Oz Chaos Magick

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2019
    Messages:
    24
    Ratings:
    +18
    Religion:
    Magick
    So to get really picky on that level, it simply means "godless".

    But there are a lot of gods in many religions who are not creator gods!
    So my default paradigm is atheism. But I'm perfectly able to believe in all kinds of things, including gods and spirits, for the sake of doing chaos magic.

    Have you ever doubted your God, even a tiny little bit? Does that make you an atheist?
     
  19. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Holidays!
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    4,597
    Ratings:
    +6,404
    Religion:
    Buddhish
    Which was in response to a silly theist thread, to make a point. As he explained to to you.

    If you admit your beliefs can't be demonstrated to be correct, then I also couldn't care less. I care when people make silly threads about what I should label myself to bear around the bush of the point, which is whether any of us have a good reason to think a god exists.

    I don't question that people believe in god. That's completely mundane and obvious. The relevant question is whether that belief comports with reality.
     
  20. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    10,223
    Ratings:
    +6,150
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    Can you see that everything you just said here, expresses a view of God as a certain thing? You defined God as "even more magical than fairies". That is a very specific view of God. It is inescapably a theological view. Theology defines God. You have a theological view of God you hold in your mind. And it is against that theological view, you find fault and reason to not believe it.

    I of course, share your disbelief of that idea of God. The difference seems, that I recognize that all views of God are theological perspectives, and some are less compatible with modern reason and logic and knowledge than others are. The theological perspective of the mythic-literal, anthropomorphic view of God, is the working perspective of everything I have seen within modern atheism (of which I was part of for many years). Your objection, is my objection as well.

    For me personally, I've come to understand atheism as a theological perspective because it looks at the Reality question (which is what God symbolizes linguistically), and takes that mythic-literal perspective and rightly demonstrates that it cannot be held in a modern rational worldspace in any functional sense of the word. Creationism is not science! The atheist is absolutely correct in this. I agree. The atheist perspective of Ultimate Reality, does not allow for an unreasonable, irrational deity, acting like a human with serious anger issues. Its view of "God" is not that face, so it leaves it as a more open question. And I agree with this as well.

    It's where one then goes with that "open question", that becomes seen in the true largest sense possible, the Open Question", the Great Mystery. It is there that we see that everything is a theological question, including all our sciences.

    With the concept of God you have here, I'd have to be convinced before you! And good luck with that. :) I think the question of God is much, much larger than the image of God as magical sky deity. That is the child's eye view, but that too is how we learn and grow. We stop "thinking as a child". Gradually, our questions about evidences, become more about understanding meaning.
     
Loading...