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AT CHRISTMAS, who do we celebrate?..., to Claus ("the elf dressed in red), or to the Baby Jesus?...

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Porque77, Dec 26, 2016.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The Roman Catholic church is nothing but a make over of Roman sun worship. The festivals have been renamed but they retain all their pagan customs and dates. The Emperor made sure that everyone was catered to in his new religion. A truly "Catholic" (universal, one size fits all) religion. You can Christianize the paganism...right?

    Unless you ignore Paul's words, you will see that these festivals and celebrations have nothing to do with Jesus Christ....they never did.

    The two biggest celebrations in the church depict a helpless infant and a dead man hanging off a cross. There is no mention of a cross in the Bible.

    A "stauros" (the instrument used to put Jesus to death) is an upright stake.

    More like this.....

    [​IMG] Not like this. [​IMG]

    Jesus is depicted in statuary too, in spite of the fact that God's law forbade the making of images to be used in worship. Images of Jesus are feminine and weak looking....not exactly depicting a glorious and powerful King...is it?


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The church says that they don't worship idols but it not hard to see that they do.....many of them still retain sun imagery.

    Is this idolatry?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Exodus 20:2-5..." I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 you shall have no other gods before me.

    4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."


    Since no one knows what any of them looked like, how can anyone make an image of them? Would you like someone to show everyone a photo of Donald Trump and tell them it was you? :eek:
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not irrelevant at all. In America, what do they call judges there? "Your Honor"......it means the same as "Your Worship" as a title of respect.
    Nothing to do with worshiping a deity.

    That kind of worship (prostrating oneself before a god) was usually what the pagans did. I don't find much of that in the Bible.
    Abraham is said to have bowed down to the sons of Heth, but out of respect, not worship. (Genesis 23:7) The Septuagint renders it..." And Abraam rose up and did obeisance to the people of the land, to the sons of Chet."
    Genesis 23 - LXX Bible - Bible Study Tools
    Obeisance...yes. Worship...no. Context makes the difference.

    So, yes....proskyneō can be an act of homage by prostration, not to be confused with worship of a deity. The magi did not come to worship Jesus as a god but to pay him honor as a new king. In Matthew 2:2, the magi make no mention of Jesus as a god.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I have no doubt it will be celebrated for all time to come....but it hasn't happened yet.

    If you know your Bible Landon, then you will know that there was not one festival celebrated in Israel that was not prescribed by God in every detail. Its date, its preparation and its celebration was all down in writing. Do you know why God did that? Because left to their own devices, the Israelites, after all the miracles they saw in being liberated from harsh slavery in a foreign land, had promised to obey their God. But when Moses was taking too long in the mountain, they hassled Aaron to make them a golden calf like the one worshipped in Egypt. They called that idol "Jehovah" so as to legitimize their celebration. They were having a great time, singing and dancing, but God's response to that was to put them to death. He will not have a bar of false worship.

    Humans like to think that they can do whatever they like as long as it looks "Christian", and they can have a good time overindulging. Not so according to scripture. You will also know that we have an adversary who is stalking us, (1 Peter 5:8) wanting nothing better than for us to offend our God so that we dip out on everlasting life. Adopting seemingly harmless false religious practices might seem like a small thing, but they are a test, just as important as the big issues. (Luke 16:10) Something to think about?
     
  4. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    I would disagree. That the Magi came to worship Jesus is indicative of a religious narrative, not a political one. The wise men would not worship a king. Magi served as advisors to kings.
    These wise men were sent by Herod to find the prophesied newborn. That the Magi knew where to tell Herod the birth or arrival would occur meant they knew the writings of the prophet Isaiah.
    They also knew Herod . Which is why they did not return to him after their visit with the baby and holy family.

    Matthew 2
     
  5. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Go copy and paste that to someone who cares. You know I don't.
     
  6. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    Sorry, but if the Church says it doesn't worship idols then it doesn't worship idols. All the images are biblical ones, and are in line with God anyways unlike golden calfs. We worship God alone.

    Your faith seems paranoia based.
     
  7. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    I think I'm going to need some anacin.
     
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  8. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    The Jehovah Witness theology verges on Gnostic dualism, at least when it comes to society and culture. It thinks that Satan runs the world and almost everyone is deceived by Satan. Even having a Birthday cake or taking your kid to Chucky Cheese is satanic to JWs. They're not supposed to vote or go to college since all the governments are run by Satan. God has very little to do with the world according to them and only they know the truth. Yes, it is a paranoid worldview.
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Oh jeeeze Frank if you are going to post stuff about us at least get it right....

    "Gnostic Dualism"...what on earth is that? We are Bible believing Christians. Simple adherence to the Bible as our guide in life. Is that somehow threatening to anyone?

    If Jesus the apostles believed that the world is ruled by satan, then that is good enough for me. (Luke 4: 5-6; 1 John 5:19)
    Did you never wonder why the world is degenerating so rapidly....morally, physically, spiritually and politically? The last days are drawing to a close. All that is part of the end times prophesies. Are Catholics taught about that? Do they know what's coming?

    Voting to us is supporting satan's rulership. We are not anti-government but aware of who is pulling the strings. We just remain neutral and have no say. We leave that all in God's hands. Jesus said that the ruler of this world had no hold on him (John 14:30).....does he have a hold on those who think the world is ruled by God? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) If God is running the show, he needs to be fired! :eek:

    Sorry I have no idea what "Chucky Cheese" is (sounds gross), but the rituals surrounding birthday celebrations are steeped in spiritism....something God expressly forbade. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Birthdays and horoscopes....they go hand in hand.

    And the reason why we don't pursue higher education is mostly because we are not ambitious for positions of prominence in this world or their ridiculous pay checks....and the colleges that provide all this education are moral cess-pits. We have other ways to gain an education that doesn't include shooting for high paying jobs that separate families who end up with lots of toys but no family to play with. The rich and successful can be very lonely people.

    Like I said, at least ask the person concerned. My knowledge of Catholicism is sadly passed on from the people I talk to in my ministry. I ask questions and Catholic people in particular are embarrassed and sometime angry that they are not taught very much about the Bible at all. A lot of them can't tell the difference between a Bible and a Catechism. Their reliance on rosary beads and images is the saddest thing because they have no place in the life of a Christian. Jesus never used them, so why would we?

    Matthew 24:42-44 is good advice.
     
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Basically, Gnostic dualists like the Manichean religion and others proposed that there was a lower material world that was evil and a higher spiritual world that was good. The lower material world was ruled by a devilish entity to ensnare spiritual beings. To break free, you had to have certain types of knowledge of the higher realms. Anyway, JW theology echoes this in its paranoia of almost the entire world being the domain of the Devil and only them possessing the saving knowledge (such as the correct interpretation of the Bible) to reach the higher deity beyond that.

    Chuck E. Cheese's is a popular place for kids to celebrate their Birthdays: Chuck E. Cheese's - Wikipedia
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Have you really read Matthew ch 2? The reason why they came to honor Jesus as a new king was because they saw "his" star. They were Babylonian astrologers. That star led them first to Herod, not to Jesus. Only when Herod had hatched his evil plot, did the star move again and come to a stop above the very house where Jesus was living with his parents.

    They were not evil men with bad intentions, but as worshippers of false gods and practicers of what God condemns, he was hardly going to use them to announce the birth of his Christ. He did that to the Jewish shepherds. That star was not sent by God but by his adversary in an attempt to destroy the Messiah before he even had a chance to grow up. God warned the magi in a dream not to return to Herod, so the plot was foiled, but not for the babies that Herod murdered.

    That's not what is taught in church...but it is what is revealed in scripture.
     
  12. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    Of course I've read Matthew 2.
    Though I do admit I would wonder who's interpretation you're relying on.
    The wise men, Magi, in the chapter are said to come from the east. There is no mention of Babylon.
    Mounce version Matthew 2
    In the Mounce Interlinear Greek New Testament, east is, anatolē.
    ἀνατολή (anatolē)
    Strong: G395
    GK: G424

    pr. a rising of the sun, etc.; the place of rising, the east, as also pl. ἀνατολαί, Mt. 2:1, 2; met. the dawn or day-spring, Lk. 1:78


    Furthermore, the star did not lead the Magi to Herod first. Herod learned of the Magi's presence in his land and called the Magi/wise men to him.
    How would God send the star hearalding the birth of the Messiah to the Roman appointed King who was actually a Jew, and w

    Matthew 2 (ASV)
    2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, a]">[a]Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, 2 b]">[b]Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to c]">[c]worship him. 3 And when Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written through the prophet,

    6 d]">[d]And thou Bethlehem, land of Judah,
    Art in no wise least among the princes of Judah:
    For out of thee shall come forth a governor,
    Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.

    7 Then Herod privily called the e]">[e]Wise-men, and learned of them exactly f]">[f]what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search out exactly concerning the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word, that I also may come and g]">[g]worship him. 9 And they, having heard the king, went their way; and lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. 10 And when they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And they came into the house and saw the young child with Mary his mother; and they fell down and worshipped him; and opening their treasures they offered unto him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. 12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

    13 Now when they were departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I tell thee: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 And he arose and took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt; 15 and was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, h]">[h]Out of Egypt did I call my son.

    16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the i]">[i]Wise-men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the male children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the borders thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had exactly learned of the j]">[j]Wise-men. 17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

    18 k]">[k]A voice was heard in Ramah,
    Weeping and great mourning,
    Rachel weeping for her children;
    And she would not be comforted, because they are not.

    19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, saying, 20 Arise and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead that sought the young child’s life. 21 And he arose and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither; and being warned of God in a dream, he withdrew into the parts of Galilee, 23 and came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, l]">[l]that he should be called a Nazarene.

    Footnotes:
    1. Matthew 2:1 Greek Magi. Compare Esth. 1:13; Dan. 2:12; Acts 13:6, 8.
    2. Matthew 2:2 Or, Where is the King of the Jews that is born?
    3. Matthew 2:2 The Greek word denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature (see 4:9; 18:26), or to the Creator (see 4:10)
    4. Matthew 2:6 Mic. 5:2.
    5. Matthew 2:7 Greek Magi. Compare Esth. 1:13; Dan. 2:12; Acts 13:6, 8.
    6. Matthew 2:7 Or, the time of the star that appeared
    7. Matthew 2:8 The Greek word denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature (see 4:9; 18:26), or to the Creator (see 4:10)
    8. Matthew 2:15 Hos. 11:1.
    9. Matthew 2:16 Greek Magi. Compare Esth. 1:13; Dan. 2:12; Acts 13:6, 8.
    10. Matthew 2:16 Greek Magi. Compare Esth. 1:13; Dan. 2:12; Acts 13:6, 8.
    11. Matthew 2:18 Jer. 31:15.
    12. Matthew 2:23 Isa. 11:1 in the Hebrew?
    American Standard Version (ASV)
    Public Domain (Why are modern Bible translations copyrighted?)
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Perhaps it is the other way around....perhaps the founder of Manichaeism borrowed his ideas from the Bible?

    From a Google search I found that the "Manichaeism, dualistic religious movement was founded in Persia in the 3rd century AD by Mani (q.v.), so it was well after the establishment of Christianity.

    Mani viewed himself as the final successor in a long line of prophets, beginning with Adam and including Buddha, Zoroaster, and Jesus."
    On reading further I find no similarity at all.

    Manichaeism | ancient religious movement

    Since all our beliefs are based on the Bible, the "paranoia" is coming from Jesus.....so is it paranoia or is there a warning being sounded in the world by those whom he said would be hated for doing what Jesus did? (John 15:18-21) :shrug:

    That is one American delicacy I hope they keep to themselves. :facepalm:
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How about the magi?
    Strongs Concordance says of the magi...."
    1. a magus
      1. the name given by the Babylonians (Chaldeans), Medes, Persians, and others, to the wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers etc.
      2. the oriental wise men (astrologers) who, having discovered by the rising of a remarkable star that the Messiah had just been born, came to Jerusalem to worship him
      3. a false prophet and sorcerer
    These so called "wise men" were practicers of what God condemned. They were not sent by God. And the star they followed led them to Jerusalem, not to Bethlehem. Of course Herod was going to hear about a newborn King of the Jews. He was in that role and no one was going to fill it apart from himself and his own offspring.


    [​IMG]

    Babylon is east of Jerusalem. Bethlehem is south of Jerusalem. The star was very specific in where it led the magi, first to Jerusalem and then after the meeting with Herod, continuing to move until it stopped over the house where Jesus was.


    Looks like you didn't finish your sentence there....? I found this information interesting....sounds like Herod was not much of a Jew.

    "As far as Herod the Great’s religion one scholar stated properly that “Herod curried favor with the Jews but was staunchly allied to Rome and embraced Greco-Roman culture and religion”. [Archeological Study Bible, notes on Herod the Great, p.1629].

    Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. If Herod was a Jew, he certainly did not show mercy towards them, for it was this Herod who during the latter years of his life, had all baby boys of Bethlehem executed (Matthew 2:16) when he feared one might somehow supplant His political headship. It was stated by one scholar that Herod was a “nominal Jew” [Archeological Study Bible, p.1627]

    Was Herod the great a Jew by religion? No. He embraced Greek religions, and the pantheon of greek idolatrous false gods and goddesses. However, Herod was a king. For Matthew 2:1 says, “Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, during the time of King Herod” (NIV). So we see that Herod was the reigning king of the city of Jerusalem (Matthew 2:3). It was the Roman Senate however that appointed him king of Judea in 40 B.C. However he did not formally begin his reign until 37B.C. because he violently suppressed a large opposition from Jerusalem’s leading aristocrats for about three years before he ruled Judea free from violent opposition from the leading Jews. As a ruler of the Jews he accepted and followed their customs, as that would have kept the peace politically for him. As a son of a Jewish convert with a Gentile background, he also knew how to “act the part” as king of Judea, who would have “rode the fence” between the religions of Rome, Greece, and Jerusalem. Thus in religion, he served whatever faith was expedient for the moment at hand."


    Was Herod A Real Jew?
     
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  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the sun will not directly help you.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are trying to tell me that druids are exempt from being reasonable.
     
  17. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    But the sun is one of Gods great creations. Of course He made it to help us.
     
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  18. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    People so obsessed with combating paganism, not only hate Christmas but curse the sun!
     
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  19. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Oh yes.....It will warm us.
    It brings the seasons.
    Food crops gather its strength.
    It summons the moon to bring the tides.

    Yes, the Sun will directly help us. :)
     
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  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hey Saint Frankenstein, hope you are well.

    I thought I should comment on this:
    Actually, this comes from the Scriptures; the Bible either says or implies this, several times...Luke 4:5-7...John 12:31...John 14:30...John 16:11...2 Corinthians 4:4...1 John 5:19

    Again, the Bible, at Revelation 12:9.

    Take care of yourself.
     
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