Astrology?

[Quintessence]

I'm aware that astrology incorporates more than just a person's "sun sign" and have been told by believers/practitioners that we have a moon sign, rising sign, etc. Which can actually be opposites of each other. So that makes the system basically unfalsifiable because any outcome can be explained through some interpretation of one of the 4 signs that might apply to you, sometimes. So as a serious tool for accurate predictions of events or descriptions of personalities, it seems quite dubious.

Fortune telling isn't necessarily the point of divination and IMHO the poorest use of the art. It's less about it being "accurate" it's about it being a useful thought-provoking tool to think about a life situation. Falsifiable procedures actually destroy that kind of utility. I'm just going to toss this here:

Divination - Not What You Think

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Christians knew that the God of the Bible was God of order

I wouldn't be that cinfident in saying Jehovah is there because Newtonian physics are fundamentally incompatible with quantum mechanics. Amd personal beliefs do not matter. The laws of the universe are as they are. Einstein, and many others, have found monumental discoveries without your god.

 

[Left Coast]

Fortune telling isn't necessarily the point of divination and IMHO the poorest use of the art. It's less about it being "accurate" it's about it being a useful thought-provoking tool to think about a life situation. Falsifiable procedures actually destroy that kind of utility. I'm just going to toss this here:

Divination - Not What You Think

Re: the bolded sentence can you explain how? If I want to think through a problem or situation creatively or differently, I still want to be able to test the ideas I come up with to see if they actually resolve my dilemma. So falsifiability, it seems to me, would be critical in that endeavor. But perhaps you're thinking of it in a different context?

 

[MNoBody]

in many of the gnostic scriptures it was implied and stated that the direction of rotation (spin) was altered, reversed, which threw the gods into dismay over the movements which went hither and thither in a new way, which threw a wrench into all their peoples tedious and careful calculations and reckonings...
plus what 12 based system is accurate when 13 signs are needed to complete the mazzaroth?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

As a Christian, I would also say this. If one seeks out some sort of method to divine things unknown to them, whether it be tarot cards, or astrology, you must acknowledge some sort of 'power' behind it. The card or star itself is nothing without a power behind it.

That is an important question to always entertain. What is the power behind it? As a Christian, I believe, God is not behind it. And if He isn't behind it, who is?

I would not discount any 'miraculous foretelling's' some may have witnessed with astrology or tarot cards. But again, what is the power behind it? (Ex. 7:8-13)

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Mock Turtle]

Heres a look at mine and why I dont claim it, objections highlighted.
My Libra Zodiac Sign: Personality

Most of these objections revolve around me having Asperrgers. A libra of someone of social finesse. An aspie is someone of social awkwardness. I've also have an acute awareness of myself and identity, do not work in those fields listed, have excellent follow through when I want something, am meticulously detailed, and I am uncomfortable in large groups.
How does this describe me or predict my behaviors?

Perhaps you are really a Virgo, since a recent article (can't find) claimed that because of the movement of the stars in the sky relative to ancient times, which sign we are might vary. I'm supposedly Libra too and few of those in bold would apply to me either.

I don't believe in astrology as such but there might be something as to the point in the year when we are born having some effect. Can't remember how many of such studies there are but there is some evidence as to such an effect, for example:

What Your Birthday Says About Your Personality

How the Month You Were Born Affects Your Personality, According to Science

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perhaps you are really a Virgo, since a recent article (can't find) claimed that because of the movement of the stars in the sky relative to ancient times, which sign we are might vary. I'm supposedly Libra too and few of those in bold would apply to me either.

I don't believe in astrology as such but there might be something as to the point in the year when we are born having some effect. Can't remember how many of such studies there are but there is some evidence as to such an effect, for example:

What Your Birthday Says About Your Personality

How the Month You Were Born Affects Your Personality, According to Science

I have to admit it does describe me better. However, to go back to me being an aspie, I've did read a book about Aspergers and discovered I'm fairly typical for a female aspie, down to literature preferences and spiritual path, and the book read for me like a wierd biography. There is no correlation that I'm aware of between autism in general and astrological signs that suggests astrology predicts it.

 

[blü 2]

Do you believe astrology provides us with consistent, accurate descriptions of people's personalities? Or of future events? Or anything else other than the position of stars and planets in the sky?

I've never found any reason to think it would work.

What's lacking are (say) ten unambiguous and reasonably complex predictions, together with a basis for them that follows strictly from the positions of the stars, and doesn't include any human guesswork ie everyone using the method would get the same result; and then a perfect score, or at least an eight.

And the theory says it works by interpreting the action of the stars on humans, no? But it uses a starmap that has nothing to do with the present positions of the stars, no?

 

[HonestJoe]

Back in 1980, an astrological conference in the UK devoted an afternoon to discussing the probable collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of the decade. How many political commentators were expecting that event?

Loads of people predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, starting long before 1980. There were all sorts of different reasons behind that and much would have been wishful thinking from the West but raising the idea in 1980 of it collapsing within a decade wouldn't require any mystical insight (Predictions of the dissolution of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia).

Those who say there's nothing in it need to provide me with some evidence — I had a scientific education and I'm not impressed by unsubstantiated claims.

That isn't how it works. You've not even explained exactly what you're promoting (you only dismissed newspaper columns for sun-signs). If you have any positive claims for how astrology actually works, I'd be really interested to hear them.

I will mention that I know a woman who was born on the same day at the same hospital as me because our parents kept in touch. She turned out to be an entirely different person to me though.

 

[stvdv]

I don't see many believers in astrology (of any variety) around RF. Are there any?

Do you believe astrology provides us with consistent, accurate descriptions of people's personalities? Or of future events? Or anything else other than the position of stars and planets in the sky?

In 1990 I wrote an astrology program, and was a bit into it
Once my Master told us "People don't have even speed of light correct, hence Astrology is not useful"
And he added some more, which made me decide to call it quits

 

[Mock Turtle]

I've studied astrology for many years, and I'm a published author in the field (in a modest way). But I wouldn't say I "believed in" astrology any more than I'd say I "believed in" biology.

A lot of what people think is astrology isn't, like the newspaper sun-sign columns. These have been tested by comparing them with people's diaries and shown to be rubbish — and the test was carried out by the Scottish Astrological Association! That result was what most of us expected, since the method used seemed very dubious.

Back in 1980, an astrological conference in the UK devoted an afternoon to discussing the probable collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of the decade. How many political commentators were expecting that event? But it seemed clear that the Soviet government was facing possible collapse, and that the cause would be a number of existing problems combining to create an insurmountable crisis.

Those who say there's nothing in it need to provide me with some evidence — I had a scientific education and I'm not impressed by unsubstantiated claims.

But have you disentangled the apparent evidence that being born at a certain point in the year, because the seasons might have effects, as being more likely to cause differences that anything rather further away?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Those people who expect me to provide them with my evidence (decades of research on computer or paper) might care to explain why I should care enough about their opinions to prepare a summary. If you are interested, investigate for yourself. I note that the objectors are either Christians or atheists. Since I have little respect for the former and none for the latter, I'm not motivated to be co-operative!

Many of the quibbles are careless (or dishonest?) I say astrology predicted the date of the collapse of the USSR. Some-one cites a Wikipedia article about predictions of Soviet collapse, all of wich either do not give a date or give the wrong date. Did "Honest" Joe actually read the article, or did he think I wouldn't check?

Some are based on ignorance. LeftCoast thinks she's knowledgeable because she knows there's a Moon sign and a rising sign, as well as a Sun sign, and then says that's not enough. Yes — it isn't, for there are aspects and houses. Others refer to stars — what have stars to do with it (other than the Sun)?

Can I explain why astrology works? Well, I can make a couple of guesses, but I don't know. Can you explain why gravity works? Science (in the widest sense of the term) is not about explaining why the universe is as it is, but about providing a coherent description of what it does.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't see many believers in astrology (of any variety) around RF. Are there any?

Do you believe astrology provides us with consistent, accurate descriptions of people's personalities? Or of future events? Or anything else other than the position of stars and planets in the sky?

Scientific research has shown that astrology is a crock.

 

[Left Coast]

Those people who expect me to provide them with my evidence (decades of research on computer or paper) might care to explain why I should care enough about their opinions to prepare a summary. If you are interested, investigate for yourself. I note that the objectors are either Christians or atheists. Since I have little respect for the former and none for the latter, I'm not motivated to be co-operative!

If this is true, then why are you participating in this thread created by someone for whom you have no respect? If you're unwilling to provide a rationale for your beliefs, then it seems you're simply here to preach, which would be against forum rules. If you actually don't care what anyone here thinks, no one is forcing you to participate. Go elsewhere.

Some are based on ignorance. LeftCoast thinks she's knowledgeable because she knows there's a Moon sign and a rising sign, as well as a Sun sign, and then says that's not enough. Yes — it isn't, for there are aspects and houses. Others refer to stars — what have stars to do with it (other than the Sun)?

I didn't claim to be "knowledgeable." I'm literally asking you to explain it. But you dont respect me so .

Aren't the constellations for which the signs are named composed of stars?

 

[Quintessence]

Re: the bolded sentence can you explain how? If I want to think through a problem or situation creatively or differently, I still want to be able to test the ideas I come up with to see if they actually resolve my dilemma. So falsifiability, it seems to me, would be critical in that endeavor. But perhaps you're thinking of it in a different context?

Yes and no.

Too often, humans are seeking some sort of "magic bullet" or "proven" solution to their life problems. Those of us who have been alive for any length of time are usually wise enough to recognize this is usually a fool's errand. Because divination has a "magical" reputation I think folks are more prone to thinking it is some sort of "magic bullet" solution. It is not - and professionals who practice divination ethically make a point of this with their clients. It is a tool, like any other. It is a tool that is not at all dissimilar to going and talking to a therapist to help with your mental health. By itself, it isn't going to resolve anything; it's a tool that is part of a larger process.

When it comes to mental health and working through life issues more broadly, there's no one size fits all approach either for what tools we should use. We have to find what works for us. Does this tool work for me, or doesn't it? Whether or not is is "falsified" isn't the point - does it or doesn't it work for me? Use (or don't) based on the results you experience. Someone who thinks some particular tool is stupid won't take it seriously and won't get any benefit from it. You get out of it what you put into it.

I don't know if any of this gets at what you are asking. My brain is largely elsewhere today.

 

[Left Coast]

Yes and no.

Too often, humans are seeking some sort of "magic bullet" or "proven" solution to their life problems. Those of us who have been alive for any length of time are usually wise enough to recognize this is usually a fool's errand. Because divination has a "magical" reputation I think folks are more prone to thinking it is some sort of "magic bullet" solution. It is not - and professionals who practice divination ethically make a point of this with their clients. It is a tool, like any other. It is a tool that is not at all dissimilar to going and talking to a therapist to help with your mental health. By itself, it isn't going to resolve anything; it's a tool that is part of a larger process.

When it comes to mental health and working through life issues more broadly, there's no one size fits all approach either for what tools we should use. We have to find what works for us. Does this tool work for me, or doesn't it? Whether or not is is "falsified" isn't the point - does it or doesn't it work for me? Use (or don't) based on the results you experience. Someone who thinks some particular tool is stupid won't take it seriously and won't get any benefit from it. You get out of it what you put into it.

I don't know if any of this gets at what you are asking. My brain is largely elsewhere today.

I appreciate not wanting or thinking it would be a "magic pill."

In my head, falsification would apply to what works "for me" as well. Once we get specific about what "works for me" actually means, then whatever it means, we see if the method achieved your goal. Because that's what we want, right? Whatever our goal is, however we personally define it, we want a method that gets the job done.

 

[Sirona]

Johannes Kepler, a Christian, set about to discredit astrology which I believe he did in showing that the planetary motion is governed by mathematical laws. He discovered that the planets traveled in elliptical orbits around the sun. Isaac Newton, another Christian, determined that the planetary motion is determined by the simple equation of the law of gravity: F = G*(M1 *M2)/ r**2. The Christians knew that the God of the Bible was God of order so they believed that there were simple formulas governing nature.

Kepler lived in an era when there was no clear distinction between astronomy and astrology. He disdained astrologers who pandered to the tastes of the common man without knowledge of the abstract and general rules, but he saw compiling prognostications as a justified means of supplementing his meagre income. At least 800 horoscopes drawn up by Kepler are still extant.

Starry Messenger: Kepler and Astrology

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Scientific research has shown that astrology is a crock.

Would you care to cite your source for this research?

If this is true, then why are you participating in this thread created by someone for whom you have no respect?

My replies are really directed to others than yourself.

This thread is a classic case of the Alternative Explanation Phenomenon. If you wish to hold a view, then you can always find an alternative explanation. No matter how much evidence I presented, you would always dismiss it — like Hoyle on the Big Bang, or any evangelical on evolution.

If you actually don't care what anyone here thinks, no one is forcing you to participate. Go elsewhere.

That advice might be appropriate for an atheist on a religious forum…

Aren't the constellations for which the signs are named composed of stars?

Note "named for" — constellations and signs are two different things, as you clearly know, but some people get them muddled up.

 

[Left Coast]

My replies are really directed to others than yourself.

Then please don't talk about me in your replies to others, thanks.

This thread is a classic case of the Alternative Explanation Phenomenon. If you wish to hold a view, then you can always find an alternative explanation. No matter how much evidence I presented, you would always dismiss it — like Hoyle on the Big Bang, or any evangelical on evolution.

So far you've presented zero evidence for me to dismiss, except that a group of astrologists (but not all of them?) in 1980 said the USSR was likely to fall. And I explained rationally why that doesn't demonstrate the reliability of astrology as a method. You are doing exactly what you think I will do: you've arrived at a conclusion before you've seen any evidence.

Also, which university science department can I take courses in astrology at?

That advice might be appropriate for an atheist on a religious forum…

LOL. I shouldn't participate in a religious forum because I'm an atheist? Unlike yourself, I do respect others even when I disagree with them, and I generally care what other people think. I'm here because I enjoy dialogue about these things. And I was once religious myself.

So if you're done dancing around, let's get to brass tax. Or are you just going to continue looking down your nose at us plebs?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Would you care to cite your source for this research?

Most of the research I am familiar with was what I learned at the university, not online. However, I did find this for you with a simple google:

The Scientific Case against Astrology - Open The Magazine