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Assuming THE FLOOD Did Happen . . .

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
That doesn't even sound right; those are exact words? What else is being omitted?

I've lost most of the hearing in my left ear so I'm never 100% sure if I hear people correctly especially if there's background noise and it was 3 years ago, even so I believe it was an accurate description but probably not exactly word for word.

And how would you know this?

Met some of them who were looking after his house and dog when he and his wife were away.

You should go to his KH....tell those brothers.

I have no idea what a KH is.

Yep, bet there is.

Nice, editing my quote at a comma. I see your tactics
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I've lost most of the hearing in my left ear so I'm never 100% sure if I hear people correctly especially if there's background noise and it was 3 years ago, even so I believe it was an accurate description but probably not exactly word for word.



Met some of them who were looking after his house and dog when he and his wife were away.



I have no idea what a KH is.

Nice, editing my quote at a comma. I see your tactics

It is my observation that for a creo, intellectual
honest is impossible. What do you expect?

ETA. I think KH is kingdom hall
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Speaking of those whose minds are made up!

It's perfectly OK to have your mind made up as long as you have considered both sides of an issue carefully.

On the subject of evolution verses creation, I do not see one side having any more real evidence than the other. Both are faith based and dependent on belief. If you don't think so, then you have not truly evaluated the validity of the "evidence".

On the natter of one faith verses another, or verses no faith at all....the same applies. As I see it, we all just choose our belief system....wchih means that we all choose what to believe and who to believe.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It's perfectly OK to have your mind made up as long as you have considered both sides of an issue carefully.

On the subject of evolution verses creation, I do not see one side having any more real evidence than the other. Both are faith based and dependent on belief. If you don't think so, then you have not truly evaluated the validity of the "evidence".

On the natter of one faith verses another, or verses no faith at all....the same applies. As I see it, we all just choose our belief system....wchih means that we all choose what to believe and who to believe.
It's perfectly OK to have your mind made up as long as you have considered both sides of an issue carefully.

On the subject of evolution verses creation, I do not see one side having any more real evidence than the other. Both are faith based and dependent on belief. If you don't think so, then you have not truly evaluated the validity of the "evidence".

On the natter of one faith verses another, or verses no faith at all....the same applies. As I see it, we all just choose our belief system....wchih means that we all choose what to believe and who to believe.

I was referring to conclusion before evidence.
I doubt you can deny that is what you did.

If you think both sides have equal evidence
you've not studied nor thought much. Not just
taking a swipe- stating obvious fact.

IF creation were true, the evidence would all
be on its side. It is the other way 'round.

Equal makes no sense.

That you can and do "choose" what to believe really
expresses so much about how you think, opposite
to science, opposite to real research.

In math, I'd believe an equation after I saw it work.
I believe I can swim because I can. I cannot choose
to think their are pyramids on Mars. I dont do deliberate
self deception.

I accept ToE as I have done many long hours in lecture,
lab, library and field. I understand it. This is not true of you.
There is no, zero chance you've actually investigated the
validity of the evidence.

The man who is closest to your position, with vastly more
knowledge, has a PhD in paleontology, but is a yec.

He says if all the evidence turned against yec, he'd still
be yec, as that is what the bible seems to indicate.

THAT is a "belief". That is the distilled essence of intellectual
dishonesty.

Science is a culture of doubt. Religion is a culture of faith.

See above- faith, belief as a choice, zero to do with evidence.

It is a profound misreading to think they are in any
way equivalent.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I was referring to conclusion before evidence.
I doubt you can deny that is what you did.

I had evidence way before I made any conclusion...I'm just sorry that you are blind to the gifts that are all around us. I believe that it is science who makes all its conclusions fit its scant evidence.

If you think both sides have equal evidence
you've not studied nor thought much. Not just
taking a swipe- stating obvious fact.

You think you are stating the obvious, but I wonder if you would even know if you had been hoodwinked by the power of suggestion?.....science does not have evidence for macro-evolution at all. It has evidence for adaptation which is limited to producing variety within a taxonomic family, but science only assumes that it can go beyond the boundaries of what it can test. You do understand that assumptions are not facts, and that suggestions are not proof of what science wants you to believe?

You have faith that their conclusions are correct...but what if they're not?

IF creation were true, the evidence would all
be on its side. It is the other way 'round.

You think so? I guess it depends on what you consider to be "evidence". You see, science can only interpret evidence and it usually interprets it to suit the theory.....not the other way around. We see the same evidence and come to opposite conclusions based on overall human experience. Nothing comes from nothing and life did not just spring into existence all by itself for no apparent reason......it is too complex to ever have popped up on its own, undirected. It demonstrates planning which requires forethought. Forethought requires intelligence and creation demonstrates the kind of intelligence that would make human intellect seem like no intellect at all IMO.

Equal makes no sense.

"Equal" is exactly what you have when two belief systems collide. Science has no solid evidence for abiogenesis or macro-evolution or any real proof that single celled organisms morphed themselves into creatures the size of a multi-story building over millions of years. Show us how dinosaurs evolved from something you need a microscope to even see. You talk about all this evidence.....so where is it?

That you can and do "choose" what to believe really
expresses so much about how you think, opposite
to science, opposite to real research.

There is nothing "real" about the research...conclusions are drawn from bias, not proof......its all smoke and mirrors, based on nothing but suggestion and assumption about what "might have" or "could have" happened all those millions of years ago when no one was around to tell us anything....throw in some really complicated diagrams and you have the masses worshipping at your feet. Why? Because they want to appear to be the intelligent ones.....only uneducated morons believe in creation......right? Won't it be interesting to find out?

I accept ToE as I have done many long hours in lecture,
lab, library and field. I understand it.

Dogs can learn to do all sorts of things when they are trained with rewards.....when you do long hours in lectures, whose words and ideas are you absorbing? Who is training you to see things that are not there in reality? What expectations are there when experiments are done? Aren't students trained to look for pre-conceived outcomes, dependent upon pre-programmed expectations? You find what you are looking for....they make sure of it.
When you have basically thrown God out the door...you don't want him creeping back now do you...? So you have to keep him out at all costs.....large egos can't afford to have egg on face.

This is not true of you.
There is no, zero chance you've actually investigated the
validity of the evidence.

I have read everything that evolutionists have ever given me. If you think you can provide substantiated evidence for macro-evolution that does not require faith or belief, then by all means present it.....you'll be the first.

The man who is closest to your position, with vastly more
knowledge, has a PhD in paleontology, but is a yec.

He says if all the evidence turned against yec, he'd still
be yec, as that is what the bible seems to indicate.

THAT is a "belief". That is the distilled essence of intellectual
dishonesty.

I do not subscribe to YEC beliefs. I believe in an old earth and an old universe, with creative periods of very long duration. No evolution is required to fill in all those gaps that science has no answers for. I know where life originated and I see how the Creator has skillfully and deliberately fashioned all of his creations.....including the non-biological things that could never have evolved or happened by chance....you know like the placement of the earth in relation to the sun, the size and the shape of it.....the tilt of its axis and the speed of its rotation...the placement of its moon...the mixture of gases in its atmosphere...its ozone layer protecting earth's inhabitants from the sun's radiation.....and the many systems upon which life depends which no thinking person could imagine are just flukes.
Is it just another fortunate accident that fresh water falls from the sky when the oceans are full of water that most living things cannot drink?

How many flukes does it take for intelligent people to stop and say.....yeah, it is all a bit too co-incidental....but do they do that? NO! With religious passion, they defend their beliefs like it was a religion.

Science is a culture of doubt. Religion is a culture of faith.

"Science is culture of doubt" eh?....wow, its funny how it is never presented that way....you have the likes of Dawkins and Coyne strutting about stages like peacocks spouting "facts" to adoring audiences that they can't prove. Yours is just as much "a culture of faith". You can't see it though, can you? Its presented as fact but there are no facts where there is no proof. It's never presented as a suggestion with doubts attached, is it?

faith, belief as a choice, zero to do with evidence.

It is a profound misreading to think they are in any
way equivalent.

You can think that if you wish...I know what sounds more intelligent to me. I see the same evidence that you do, but I come to a vastly different conclusion. To each his/her own.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I've lost most of the hearing in my left ear so I'm never 100% sure if I hear people correctly especially if there's background noise and it was 3 years ago, even so I believe it was an accurate description but probably not exactly word for word.
Uh-huh.
Thanks for stating that your hearing is impaired. My mother's is, and she is constantly misunderstanding people!

What you said that JW told you, just didn't sound right. We do not talk to strangers in such a selfish way.

Unless he was newly baptized....

Nice, editing my quote at a comma. I see your tactics

Those are not my usual tactics, didn't mean to misapply your statement, but I see now where there could be more to this story of your interactions with JW's.

BTW, KH stands for Kingdom Hall....we do not call our places of worship, "churches". (There are reasons.)

So-long.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I had evidence way before I made any conclusion...I'm just sorry that you are blind to the gifts that are all around us. I believe that it is science who makes all its conclusions fit its scant evidence.



You think you are stating the obvious, but I wonder if you would even know if you had been hoodwinked by the power of suggestion?.....science does not have evidence for macro-evolution at all. It has evidence for adaptation which is limited to producing variety within a taxonomic family, but science only assumes that it can go beyond the boundaries of what it can test. You do understand that assumptions are not facts, and that suggestions are not proof of what science wants you to believe?

You have faith that their conclusions are correct...but what if they're not?



You think so? I guess it depends on what you consider to be "evidence". You see, science can only interpret evidence and it usually interprets it to suit the theory.....not the other way around. We see the same evidence and come to opposite conclusions based on overall human experience. Nothing comes from nothing and life did not just spring into existence all by itself for no apparent reason......it is too complex to ever have popped up on its own, undirected. It demonstrates planning which requires forethought. Forethought requires intelligence and creation demonstrates the kind of intelligence that would make human intellect seem like no intellect at all IMO.



"Equal" is exactly what you have when two belief systems collide. Science has no solid evidence for abiogenesis or macro-evolution or any real proof that single celled organisms morphed themselves into creatures the size of a multi-story building over millions of years. Show us how dinosaurs evolved from something you need a microscope to even see. You talk about all this evidence.....so where is it?



There is nothing "real" about the research...conclusions are drawn from bias, not proof......its all smoke and mirrors, based on nothing but suggestion and assumption about what "might have" or "could have" happened all those millions of years ago when no one was around to tell us anything....throw in some really complicated diagrams and you have the masses worshipping at your feet. Why? Because they want to appear to be the intelligent ones.....only uneducated morons believe in creation......right? Won't it be interesting to find out?



Dogs can learn to do all sorts of things when they are trained with rewards.....when you do long hours in lectures, whose words and ideas are you absorbing? Who is training you to see things that are not there in reality? What expectations are there when experiments are done? Aren't students trained to look for pre-conceived outcomes, dependent upon pre-programmed expectations? You find what you are looking for....they make sure of it.
When you have basically thrown God out the door...you don't want him creeping back now do you...? So you have to keep him out at all costs.....large egos can't afford to have egg on face.



I have read everything that evolutionists have ever given me. If you think you can provide substantiated evidence for macro-evolution that does not require faith or belief, then by all means present it.....you'll be the first.



I do not subscribe to YEC beliefs. I believe in an old earth and an old universe, with creative periods of very long duration. No evolution is required to fill in all those gaps that science has no answers for. I know where life originated and I see how the Creator has skillfully and deliberately fashioned all of his creations.....including the non-biological things that could never have evolved or happened by chance....you know like the placement of the earth in relation to the sun, the size and the shape of it.....the tilt of its axis and the speed of its rotation...the placement of its moon...the mixture of gases in its atmosphere...its ozone layer protecting earth's inhabitants from the sun's radiation.....and the many systems upon which life depends which no thinking person could imagine are just flukes.
Is it just another fortunate accident that fresh water falls from the sky when the oceans are full of water that most living things cannot drink?

How many flukes does it take for intelligent people to stop and say.....yeah, it is all a bit too co-incidental....but do they do that? NO! With religious passion, they defend their beliefs like it was a religion.



"Science is culture of doubt" eh?....wow, its funny how it is never presented that way....you have the likes of Dawkins and Coyne strutting about stages like peacocks spouting "facts" to adoring audiences that they can't prove. Yours is just as much "a culture of faith". You can't see it though, can you? Its presented as fact but there are no facts where there is no proof. It's never presented as a suggestion with doubts attached, is it?



You can think that if you wish...I know what sounds more intelligent to me. I see the same evidence that you do, but I come to a vastly different conclusion. To each his/her own.

Somehow a snarky gish of things you just make
does not invite a response.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
Uh-huh.
Thanks for stating that your hearing is impaired. My mother's is, and she is constantly misunderstanding people!

What you said that JW told you, just didn't sound right. We do not talk to strangers in such a selfish way.

Unless he was newly baptized....

I am his neighbour, he was not talking to a stranger. I'm trying to figure out what you mean... JW's talk differently to strangers?


Those are not my usual tactics, didn't mean to misapply your statement, but I see now where there could be more to this story of your interactions with JW's.

So you are willing to bear false witness against a stranger to try and protect the reputation of fellow JW's. I see.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
People who dismiss the idea of a great flood need to rethink their view.

There is plenty of scientific evidence that half (1/2) of the earth was covered in ice about 650 million years ago. Since then the ice has been melting to the point where we have only the Antarctic remaining.

Still, 50%+/- of the earth was covered in ice some 650 million years ago------

A study by NASA and university researchers, published in the June 14, 2013 issue of Science, found however that ocean waters melting the undersides of Antarctic ice shelves are responsible for most of the continent's ice shelf mass loss.[2]
Ice shelf - Wikipedia

The Snowball Earth hypothesis proposes that during one or more of Earth's icehouse climates, Earth's surface became entirely or nearly entirely frozen at least once, sometime earlier than 650 Mya(million years ago). Proponents of the hypothesis argue that it best explains sedimentary deposits generally regarded as of glacial origin at tropicalpalaeolatitudes and other enigmatic features in the geological record. Opponents of the hypothesis contest the implications of the geological evidence for global glaciation and the geophysical feasibility of an ice- or slush-covered ocean[3][4]

Snowball Earth - Wikipedia

"Snowball Earth" Confirmed: Ice Covered EquatorEarth's now steamy Equator was covered with ice 716 million years ago, according to a new study.

Strange fossil may be rare insect preserved in gemstone.

The finding appears to add solid evidence to the theory of an ancient "snowball Earth."
"Snowball Earth" Confirmed: Ice Covered Equator

In the beginning, planet Earth was a very inhospitable place with no oxygen and only single-celled bacteria as inhabitants. According to a new study, the oxygen content in the air began to increase about 2.4 billion years ago, at the same time as the global glaciation and when all continents were gathered in a single huge landmass, or supercontinent. How to explain the exact connection between these events, however, is a question that baffles the researchers.
Oxygen content increased when Earth was covered in ice

A Brief History of Ice Ages and Warming

Global warming started long before the "Industrial Revolution" and the invention of the internal combustion engine. Global warming began 18,000 years ago as the earth started warming its way out of the Pleistocene Ice Age-- a time when much of North America, Europe, and Asia lay buried beneath great sheets of glacial ice.
Global Warming:A Chilling Perspective

As the ice sheet melted the runoff looked like a flood, so they called it a “GREAT FLOOD”

There is ample proof of a great flood and now it is time to flip the argument. It is time for the doubters to prove there wasn’t a flood.

Deniers, it’s your turn; go for it !!!!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
People who dismiss the idea of a great flood need to rethink their view.

There is plenty of scientific evidence that half (1/2) of the earth was covered in ice about 650 million years ago. Since then the ice has been melting to the point where we have only the Antarctic remaining.

Still, 50%+/- of the earth was covered in ice some 650 million years ago------

A study by NASA and university researchers, published in the June 14, 2013 issue of Science, found however that ocean waters melting the undersides of Antarctic ice shelves are responsible for most of the continent's ice shelf mass loss.[2]
Ice shelf - Wikipedia

The Snowball Earth hypothesis proposes that during one or more of Earth's icehouse climates, Earth's surface became entirely or nearly entirely frozen at least once, sometime earlier than 650 Mya(million years ago). Proponents of the hypothesis argue that it best explains sedimentary deposits generally regarded as of glacial origin at tropicalpalaeolatitudes and other enigmatic features in the geological record. Opponents of the hypothesis contest the implications of the geological evidence for global glaciation and the geophysical feasibility of an ice- or slush-covered ocean[3][4]

Snowball Earth - Wikipedia

"Snowball Earth" Confirmed: Ice Covered EquatorEarth's now steamy Equator was covered with ice 716 million years ago, according to a new study.

Strange fossil may be rare insect preserved in gemstone.

The finding appears to add solid evidence to the theory of an ancient "snowball Earth."
"Snowball Earth" Confirmed: Ice Covered Equator

In the beginning, planet Earth was a very inhospitable place with no oxygen and only single-celled bacteria as inhabitants. According to a new study, the oxygen content in the air began to increase about 2.4 billion years ago, at the same time as the global glaciation and when all continents were gathered in a single huge landmass, or supercontinent. How to explain the exact connection between these events, however, is a question that baffles the researchers.
Oxygen content increased when Earth was covered in ice

A Brief History of Ice Ages and Warming

Global warming started long before the "Industrial Revolution" and the invention of the internal combustion engine. Global warming began 18,000 years ago as the earth started warming its way out of the Pleistocene Ice Age-- a time when much of North America, Europe, and Asia lay buried beneath great sheets of glacial ice.
Global Warming:A Chilling Perspective

As the ice sheet melted the runoff looked like a flood, so they called it a “GREAT FLOOD”

There is ample proof of a great flood and now it is time to flip the argument. It is time for the doubters to prove there wasn’t a flood.

Deniers, it’s your turn; go for it !!!!
You mean realists.

First off, yes there have been ice ages in the past. That has nothing to do with a worldwide flood. The fiscal in Antarctica is far younger than you seem to think that it is:

Antarctic ice sheet - Wikipedia

The current icecap began to form about 45 million years ago. Antarctica used to be temperate.

Do you have anything at all besides your misinterpretation of ice ages that occurred hundreds of millions of years before man showed up? Why do you think that supports you in any way at all?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't see that we are assuming the flood happened
instead a discussion to say it did

so if it did happen.....and assuming it did

was it the Hand of God?
and the intent was to kill all but a few?
 
. . . what did it accomplish?

From the way things went afterwards---sin still remaining high on the lists of a lot of people, and rampant throughout the world---it seems to me the whole operation was a waste of life, good water, and gopher wood. :shrug:

.

The ancient Hebrews were jealous of all the Sumerians and their epic of Gilgamesh and decided to write their own one. It's called Genesis.
 
. . . what did it accomplish?

From the way things went afterwards---sin still remaining high on the lists of a lot of people, and rampant throughout the world---it seems to me the whole operation was a waste of life, good water, and gopher wood. :shrug:

.

The ancient Hebrews were jealous of all the Sumerians and their epic of Gilgamesh and decided to write their own one. It's called Genesis.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Bingo. What was the point? However, a hybrid race, fathered by "the sons of the gods" upon human females is mentioned just prior to the Flood event. These beings, as depicted in the book of Genesis were "wicked" and violent, they ate flesh (which was forbidden before the Deluge), fathered a race of giants, and had corrupted the whole earth with violence.

They were around after the "global flood" as well. Some creationists claim that's because Noah's daughters-in-law carried the gene for the Nephilim.
 
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