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Featured Assuming he exists/existed: Lord, Liar, Loon?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Dec 13, 2019.

?
  1. Lord

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  2. Liar

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Lunatic

    2 vote(s)
    8.0%
  4. A more complex response (please share)

    19 vote(s)
    76.0%
  1. Eddi

    Eddi Well-Known Member

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    In his book Mere Christianity CS Lewis (which I've recently read) says that Christ (as we know him from the bible) himself claimed to be divine, which would mean that if we follow him then we must consider him to be more than simply a wise-man, which is how many secular people imagine him, and some religious folk too...

    Based on this, he said there were three possibilities: That the Jesus (as we know him from the bible) is either Lord, Liar, or Lunatic and that "wise man" was not an option as he explicitly said he was divine, which would rule-out "wise man"

    Lord - he was what he said he was - divine

    Liar - he was a scoundrel and was taking everyone for a ride, by falsely claiming to be divine

    Loon - he claimed to be divine because he was insane
     
  2. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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  3. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I'm not really up on Christian mythos, but in my religion everything is sacred or divine. Thus if a person claims they are divine, I shrug my shoulders and go "well... yes?" And if I'm feeling snarky, perhaps add a "in other news, Gravity is keeping your feet planted on the Earth today." The better question is "what relationship do I have with you, and why do you matter to me?"
     
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  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I don't think he was a loon. Lots of folks feel divinely inspired. Some even feel themselves to be the Messiah. I don't think that makes a person insane, maybe a bit self deluded. These folks mean well, want to help humanity. Not that unusual to feel an internal connection to divinity. Not that hard IMO for the unconscious mind to create a "God" that is consciously autonomous and can have relationship/interaction with the conscious self. In all other ways a person can be rational, normal.

    The unconscious mind is constantly pushing thoughts, ideas, desires onto the conscious self. In a strong religious environment, this can take the form of an autonomous "God" entity. Especially where a belief in God is strongly held, few would question this experience with the divine. Lots of people assume the reality of this experience. Just not everyone takes it to the level of assuming to be a messenger/prophet of God.

    If you want to see this as being a loon, I guess but in all other facets of life they can be pretty normal.
     
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  5. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    There's another alliterative possibility that Lewis carefully ignores.

    Lord, Liar, Lunatic, Legend.

    Nobody knows what Jesus said or did. All we can know about is what later people wrote about. A lot later. And it wasn't much, everything in the NT could be compressed into a few months. Jesus was in His 30s when He was executed. He said and did a lot that didn't make it into the Canon, especially not the Canon compiled centuries after His Death.
    Tom
     
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  6. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Yeah, I have to agree here. I've said this for years, which is why I voted A more complex response. For me it's on several levels... his own contemporaries and followers, those who came after him who established and maintain(ed) the church, and his followers today. I think he could easily feel that everything he did was totally in vain by the looks of things. I'm thinking of John 11:49-50. "Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish." He didn't realize he was speaking not only on the level of his day, but for all of humanity. Better that this rabble-rouser from that jerkwater Galilee be disposed of lest the Romans crush us, and better this sacrifice made for the salvation of all mankind (I was a Bible geek when I was Christian :D). So yeah, Jesus definitely got the short end of the stick, and still does. I actually quite like the bloke; I just dislike many of his followers and what they do.
     
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  7. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Words put in his mouth by later authors.
     
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  8. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros Coincidentia oppositorum
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    Jesus is a story that's consist of a compilation of stories from different men and sources. I don't think we can trace all of it back to a single person and say, "look, that's him, that's the guy." But rather, these guys, these myths, these stories, these allegories, etc, all amalgamated into what we think to be "Jesus".
     
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  9. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    There a legends is Judaism of other rabbis who healed from a distance and did other miracles. Are these true?
     
  10. Left Coast

    Left Coast Well-Known Member
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    Or maybe made up? :shrug:
     
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  11. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I tend to think that we don’t necessarily know what He meant when He claimed to be divine.

    For example did it mean He had a spiritual relationship with God the Father? If so all who have a spiritual relationship with God are divine.

    On the other hand if He did mean that He was a physical son of God I would go with generally wise mixed with a little delusion.
     
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  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    His list wasn't complete; there's a fourth "L:" legend. It isn't necessarily a given that everything written about Jesus in the Bible is true. It's possible for someone's conception of Jesus to be different from the Jesus described in the Bible.

    That aside, Lewis's argument was aimed at people who consider Jesus to be a great moral teacher but not the Son of God. In that respect, he's right: Jesus's value as a moral standard depends entirely on whether hos claims are factually true. A lot of the stuff that Jesus says in the Bible would be insane or evil if he wasn't the Son of God.

    Of course, there's a position that can be reconciled with all these concerns just fine: it's entirely consistent to hold the position that Jesus wasn't the Son of God AND that he wasn't a great moral teacher.

    If Jesus really was a lunatic or a liar, that's no skin off my nose. Many of his teachings in the Bible seem morally problematic to me anyway, so I'm certainly not about to proclaim him to be a great moral teacher.
     
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  13. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Active Member

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    Honestly? One of the many other self proclaimed prophets of his time. In modern terms, probably a cult leader. As time goes on, what he actually said or did would have been exadurated. His legend outgrew the man and became something else, like what happens with many other cult leaders.

    L. Ron Hubbard's followers believe he ascended and didn't die, and his death wasn't even but 33 years ago. Who knows what other things will be attributed to the man long after his death. I was watching a doccumentary where one of Charles Manson's "family" members stated that he had "flown a bus" to Barker Ranch, and that she was in the bus when he had performed that miracle. I also saw another doccumentary where a Christian cult leader said he knew the day of the rapture and wanted to prove it to a reporter, disappeared into the desert with his "flock," and returned with his flock cheering and saying they were victorious and that a miracle had happened (minus the rapture, apperently).

    Brain washing and credulity are for real.
     
    #13 SigurdReginson, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  14. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    He was likely an ascetic mystic wrapped in archetypal imagery and marketed for various purposes--some good, some unsavory.
     
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  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    C.S. Lewis didn't have all the data, and the equation was flawed from before it started; as we have to be logical with the case data to begin.

    Yehoshua was King David reincarnated (Psalms 89:19-21), with the Spirit of Salvation (Yeshua) placed on to him (Isaiah 52:10-14).

    The Pharisees John, Paul, and Simon the stone (peter), are prophesied to mislead the world.

    Once we remove those, we have to use his real name Yehoshua/Yeshua; as jesus (יסס) means a grub that shall tear away in Hebrew (Isaiah 51:8).

    The Lord says it shall become our salvation (Yeshua).

    H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) + Isaiah 33:2-6, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 51:6-8

    H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

    We see the spirit of Salvation (H3444) do mighty things throughout the Tanakh.

    The naming Yehoshua means the 'Lord Saves', and the title of the 'Lord' (Yah - H3050) is specifically placed on his Messiah (Exodus 23:20-23).

    Yeshua fulfilled the role of the Lord's Messiah; yet God is bigger than a man, it is the Source of reality, not the parts or the Word it manifests.

    Yeshua spoke so precisely in the synoptic Gospels, it takes a computer with Esword Bible software, to analyse how it all connects within the Bible properly.

    I'll be honest and explain I just wrote how people who didn't understand some of this, as they didn't study the language, and contexts are loony; then realized that is not logical...

    C S Lewis was highly astute, and didn't understand this, most Jews have no clue what the Tanakh references are; here is a bit better explanation of Yeshua in the Tanakh, yet the topic needs breaking down into smaller bits to be understood.

    Our reality comes from the Source, which means for Yeshua to exist it comes from the Word that makes reality, as does everything, and so for Yeshua to fulfil the things it said would happen globally, means he has to be what he said.

    Yeshua was King David reincarnated as a Divine Being (Elohim); the problem is Jews since Babylon have thought that El (אל) and Eloh (אלה) are the same thing.

    Isaiah 46:9 explains that El and Elohim are not the same thing, reminding the people of Deuteronomy 32:7-9.

    El is the Source, when we add a 'H' to it, it means a being breathed by the Source.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #15 wizanda, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Guessing from what Roman historian's say, he is a zealot who claimed to be a wise teacher of the Jews.

    How can anyone know anything about him accurately without direct evidence?

    If he existed then I am positive that it is likely that he claimed authority and was thus executed to appease the Jewish crowds of people that saw him as a threat to their own positions.

    The Bible writers probably embellished him to adapt to their interpretation of the OT.

    It's interesting that some guy, Paul of Tarsus, came out of nowhere to write interpretations of Jesus' life and message.

    But like any story told throughout history the newer stories are adapted from the older stories.

    Jesus remains someone vastly unknown.
     
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  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I generally agree.

    I tend to lean toward the idea that there's a kernel of historical fact at the centre of the Gospel story (though possibly as an amalgam of multiple people), but even if all that is true, all we have with Jesus is a minor Jewish rebel leader who was much less significant than other rebel leaders of the period (for instance) who would have been forgotten if it weren't for the fact that a few centuries later, his followers managed to get influence with the Roman government.
     
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  18. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I believe as the Bible tells, Jesus is the image of God, a man, mediator between the one and only true God and men, King of Jews. Jesus doesn’t tell he is God, instead he tells God is greater than him.

    the Father is greater than I.
    John 14:28

    And there is only one true God.

    This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
    John 17:3

    Who is Jesus?

    It is interesting why “Christians” don’t believe Jesus.
     
  19. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Jesus wrote nothing. So the whole idea relies on the assumption the Bible is accurate. It isn't accurate and there is no way to prove anything in the NT is word for word from Jesus. So I all I need to do is point that out, which I did, rendering the question irrelevant.
     
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  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Can you prove that?
     
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