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Asking Questions and Not Taking it All So Seriously

Howdy! I just thought I’d share some thoughts while they were fresh in my mind.



I’ve been fascinated with religion most of my life but for a long time it was purely academic. I was an atheist after I left Islam and remained as such for quite a while. I would debate people about the existence of God and numerous other metaphysical things almost nonstop. These days I recognize that I often wanted to be proven wrong on some level but I can get to that later.

There are things that I came to believe after studying various religions and philosophies which shaped the way I viewed said religions and the world itself. For instance studying early Buddhism lead me to believe that the Buddha never claimed to be divine and was far from perfect. Studying early Christianity lead me to believe that Jesus never claimed to be God and that this was a later edition to the religion. Maybe not super late but after Jesus’s life at least.

I also thought Muhammad was at best a man of his time and had plenty of redeemable moments as well as tons of less redeemable moments. Thoughts like this could translate to most religions in some way shape or form.

The thing is after having my mystical experiences and continuing to have them it is neigh unto impossible for me to say “ I don’t think God exists.” I came to recognize that even when I was an atheist I was often longing for God or some kind of relationship with the divine. For awhile I entertained the idea of starting my own religion but the Gita and Tao Te Ching inspired me to move away from that idea.

Here is the thing, coming to believe in God again makes it so I want to reanalyze a lot of my formerly held beliefs. Jesus not claiming to be God isn’t super important when you are an atheist but it takes on a more important role when you start to believe in a universalist God.

Even if Jesus didn’t claim to be God one has to ask the question what he actually was then? Was he a prophet? Was he someone who was just a spiritual teacher who may have been in touch with the divine? Was he merely a fanatical zealot that suddenly took on new meaning after his death?

What about Muhammad? What about Baha’u’llah? Did God use these men? What of the numerous sufi saints and mystics? What is this underlying experience that mystics seem to have and what does it mean? Do you have to believe in “the truth” for the divine to make an appearance?

For example if Jesus didn’t claim to be God why would people who believe he was God be able to experience mystical transcendence and experience the very ground of being if God requires you to have only the correct beliefs to get anywhere spiritually? If Muhammad wasn’t a prophet why are there so many Sufis who seemed to of had mystical and enlightening experiences?

SO far as I can tell God doesn’t really care what you believe and it’s more about longing. Longing for contact with the divine and to put this world behind us. Completely contradictory religions produce mystics with vastly similar experiences. Imply to me that there is a throughline through all of this.

However that just begs other questions, questions like why have a world like this one? Why have a species like humans which are so silly and often so very evil. I mean people just lie and cheat and do ridiculous things all the time. People love to try and make themselves sound great and the world itself is a barely controlled state of constant chaos. Large systems seem to inevitably fail.

I suppose when it comes to the world I am still very cynical. Humans are in many ways defective and prone to doing foolish things. We’re horny, messy, angry creatures in a lot of ways and yet we are also capable of incredibly complex reasoning and morality. Marcus Aurelius stands out among emperors for his morality and philosophy for example.

There is an underlying chaos to all things. Reality is full of this chaos and frequently it makes it impossible to be truly rational is a silly world. Before I would of just said that is just the way things are but coming to believe in God the question now begs an answer.

The only thing I have been able to come up with is that this is all a game on some level. This was the basis for a fantasy setting I wrote and continue to write to this day. Part of the reason I embraced Hinduism was that it fit best with the narrative I had come to see in the world and the concept of the divine play made a lot of sense to me.

Part of the reason I started trying to worship Kali at all was that she represented that chaos and death I saw in the nature of God. She smiled and danced in carnage as well as bliss. This seemed to me to encompass the strange nature of reality. She is there in it and we dance together and laugh. What else can you do except laugh at a certain point?

There is a fundamental absurdity to all of existence that I used to be able to shrug at but now it demands an answer. There answer is to laugh and honk a clown nose. The answer is to help out each individual person and to defy our inner demon to become like the angels of myth and legend. To let that inner light shine unto all things.

The thing that is funny to me is that looking at the world through this lens it has never looked more beautiful. Smiling and mindfully breathing as we watch it all spiral out of control is surprisingly pleasing. Then you get to imagine all of the chaos and silliness out in the universe. The strange beauty of watching the great game unfold time and time again. I kind of love it.

The Tao is in all places, the high and the low. It’s like water and flows everywhere. Maybe we just all take ourselves a little bit too seriously to see how silly our situation is. Maybe if we could laugh at it we’d be a lot happier. Maybe we shouldn't put so much stock in our truths and should just try and embrace God as what God is.

I've gotten results from doing things like praying, dancing, chanting the names of God and so many other things I used to think was pointless. Now I get to revel in it and on some level embrace what I used to think was madness.

Just a few thoughts.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
We aren't configured to understand these things you're asking about. We are configured to recognize those questions, however, and to wonder. We have the ability to ask questions that we do not have the ability to answer. And that can be frustrating until we finally realize that it's in our not knowing these answers that we become free to choose our own answers. And to live accordingly. And in so doing to we 'create ourselves'.

I see this as a fantastic gift. And amazing gift from a God that chooses not to control our thoughts and actions. That allows us to decide these for ourselves; even though we may decide very badly. That's unconditional love.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Howdy! I just thought I’d share some thoughts while they were fresh in my mind.



I’ve been fascinated with religion most of my life but for a long time it was purely academic. I was an atheist after I left Islam and remained as such for quite a while. I would debate people about the existence of God and numerous other metaphysical things almost nonstop. These days I recognize that I often wanted to be proven wrong on some level but I can get to that later.

There are things that I came to believe after studying various religions and philosophies which shaped the way I viewed said religions and the world itself. For instance studying early Buddhism lead me to believe that the Buddha never claimed to be divine and was far from perfect. Studying early Christianity lead me to believe that Jesus never claimed to be God and that this was a later edition to the religion. Maybe not super late but after Jesus’s life at least.

I also thought Muhammad was at best a man of his time and had plenty of redeemable moments as well as tons of less redeemable moments. Thoughts like this could translate to most religions in some way shape or form.

The thing is after having my mystical experiences and continuing to have them it is neigh unto impossible for me to say “ I don’t think God exists.” I came to recognize that even when I was an atheist I was often longing for God or some kind of relationship with the divine. For awhile I entertained the idea of starting my own religion but the Gita and Tao Te Ching inspired me to move away from that idea.

Here is the thing, coming to believe in God again makes it so I want to reanalyze a lot of my formerly held beliefs. Jesus not claiming to be God isn’t super important when you are an atheist but it takes on a more important role when you start to believe in a universalist God.

Even if Jesus didn’t claim to be God one has to ask the question what he actually was then? Was he a prophet? Was he someone who was just a spiritual teacher who may have been in touch with the divine? Was he merely a fanatical zealot that suddenly took on new meaning after his death?

What about Muhammad? What about Baha’u’llah? Did God use these men? What of the numerous sufi saints and mystics? What is this underlying experience that mystics seem to have and what does it mean? Do you have to believe in “the truth” for the divine to make an appearance?

For example if Jesus didn’t claim to be God why would people who believe he was God be able to experience mystical transcendence and experience the very ground of being if God requires you to have only the correct beliefs to get anywhere spiritually? If Muhammad wasn’t a prophet why are there so many Sufis who seemed to of had mystical and enlightening experiences?

SO far as I can tell God doesn’t really care what you believe and it’s more about longing. Longing for contact with the divine and to put this world behind us. Completely contradictory religions produce mystics with vastly similar experiences. Imply to me that there is a throughline through all of this.

However that just begs other questions, questions like why have a world like this one? Why have a species like humans which are so silly and often so very evil. I mean people just lie and cheat and do ridiculous things all the time. People love to try and make themselves sound great and the world itself is a barely controlled state of constant chaos. Large systems seem to inevitably fail.

I suppose when it comes to the world I am still very cynical. Humans are in many ways defective and prone to doing foolish things. We’re horny, messy, angry creatures in a lot of ways and yet we are also capable of incredibly complex reasoning and morality. Marcus Aurelius stands out among emperors for his morality and philosophy for example.

There is an underlying chaos to all things. Reality is full of this chaos and frequently it makes it impossible to be truly rational is a silly world. Before I would of just said that is just the way things are but coming to believe in God the question now begs an answer.

The only thing I have been able to come up with is that this is all a game on some level. This was the basis for a fantasy setting I wrote and continue to write to this day. Part of the reason I embraced Hinduism was that it fit best with the narrative I had come to see in the world and the concept of the divine play made a lot of sense to me.

Part of the reason I started trying to worship Kali at all was that she represented that chaos and death I saw in the nature of God. She smiled and danced in carnage as well as bliss. This seemed to me to encompass the strange nature of reality. She is there in it and we dance together and laugh. What else can you do except laugh at a certain point?

There is a fundamental absurdity to all of existence that I used to be able to shrug at but now it demands an answer. There answer is to laugh and honk a clown nose. The answer is to help out each individual person and to defy our inner demon to become like the angels of myth and legend. To let that inner light shine unto all things.

The thing that is funny to me is that looking at the world through this lens it has never looked more beautiful. Smiling and mindfully breathing as we watch it all spiral out of control is surprisingly pleasing. Then you get to imagine all of the chaos and silliness out in the universe. The strange beauty of watching the great game unfold time and time again. I kind of love it.

The Tao is in all places, the high and the low. It’s like water and flows everywhere. Maybe we just all take ourselves a little bit too seriously to see how silly our situation is. Maybe if we could laugh at it we’d be a lot happier. Maybe we shouldn't put so much stock in our truths and should just try and embrace God as what God is.

I've gotten results from doing things like praying, dancing, chanting the names of God and so many other things I used to think was pointless. Now I get to revel in it and on some level embrace what I used to think was madness.

Just a few thoughts.

I'm glad you have developed a belief system that is working for you.

I am curious though, as to why you have chosen to share this under Religious Debates. Are you wanting folks to challenge your beliefs? If so, why? If you are happy and content, what is your goal in debating your views?

Thanks.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Even if Jesus didn’t claim to be God one has to ask the question what he actually was then? Was he a prophet? Was he someone who was just a spiritual teacher who may have been in touch with the divine? Was he merely a fanatical zealot that suddenly took on new meaning after his death?
This is actually one of CS Lewis arguments, then repeated by Josh McDowel and others in their books. It has created more than one book sale.

For example if Jesus didn’t claim to be God why would people who believe he was God be able to experience mystical transcendence and experience the very ground of being if God requires you to have only the correct beliefs to get anywhere spiritually? If Muhammad wasn’t a prophet why are there so many Sufis who seemed to of had mystical and enlightening experiences?
One possibility out of left field: a third party intercepted that longing and replied to it. Its just a possibility. Another is that perhaps like-minds can encounter each other, perhaps in some huge meeting place. This might give one a feeling of being grounded or being more informed or alive. It may not imply that God is involved. It might. I'm not saying it does or doesn't. I'm merely adding an idea to the hat.

SO far as I can tell God doesn’t really care what you believe and it’s more about longing. Longing for contact with the divine and to put this world behind us. Completely contradictory religions produce mystics with vastly similar experiences. Imply to me that there is a throughline through all of this.
To me God isn't human and actually cannot be touched by our weaknesses. Rather than caring God might contain the ideal of caring, and it might be more like its us that care about God. We find it easy to care about family or people who can do things for us, but we find it hard to care about other people that can't do anything for us. I think a lot of us realize there is something wrong with that -- something not divine about it, and thus we sense that there is divinity beyond our reach. It is something inhuman, something painful to us, something better than what we are. We reach out for it as if gazing into the Sun...and then something happens like what you are talking about.

I've gotten results from doing things like praying, dancing, chanting the names of God and so many other things I used to think was pointless. Now I get to revel in it and on some level embrace what I used to think was madness.
It is not clear to me what you mean, and I am curious. What do you count as a result? Are you talking about a chill down your spine or more like an earthquake or...what? Also what were you trying to do? You say you thought you were just behaving madly? Did you feel like you were being naughty/sneaky? I'm just curious about what motivated you and what you felt was a significant result.
 
I'm glad you have developed a belief system that is working for you.

I am curious though, as to why you have chosen to share this under Religious Debates. Are you wanting folks to challenge your beliefs? If so, why? If you are happy and content, what is your goal in debating your views?

Thanks.
Oh , I just wanted to let folks disagree if they wanted to.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
SO far as I can tell God doesn’t really care what you believe and it’s more about longing. Longing for contact with the divine and to put this world behind us. Completely contradictory religions produce mystics with vastly similar experiences. Imply to me that there is a throughline through all of this.
I think it's not even longing for the contact with the divine as people of non-theistic religions have had similar experience. "God" is just a word describing mystery beyond to someone with a theistic mindset...

I have come to the conclusion that what counts is not faith, theology, mystical experience, special knowledge, altered states of consciousness, austerity etc. It's love that counts. All is in vain if there is no love.

There is a passage in NT Bible that also contains this wisdom:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. (1 Cor 13)​
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Howdy! I just thought I’d share some thoughts while they were fresh in my mind.

I'll provide my take on a couple things. Feel free to disregard. :)

The thing is after having my mystical experiences and continuing to have them it is neigh unto impossible for me to say “ I don’t think God exists.” I came to recognize that even when I was an atheist I was often longing for God or some kind of relationship with the divine. For awhile I entertained the idea of starting my own religion but the Gita and Tao Te Ching inspired me to move away from that idea.

I would suggest that any longing or desire is going to impact objectivity, in my opinion. We are imperfect and fallible creatures after all, as you touch upon on later in your post.
So, if your goal is to satisfy your longing and need as it relates to religion, then you seem to be on the right track for you. If your goal is to evaluate the veracity of religious thought broadly as well as specific religious claims and ideas, then you would have to mitigate that loss of objectivity in some manner.

SO far as I can tell God doesn’t really care what you believe and it’s more about longing. Longing for contact with the divine and to pit this world behind us. Completely contradictory religions produce mystics with vastly similar experiences. Imply to me that there is a throughline through all of this.
However that just begs other questions, questions like why have a world like this one? Why have a species like humans which are so silly and often so very evil. I mean people just lie and cheat and do ridiculous things all the time. People love to try and make themselves sound great and the world itself is a barely controlled state of constant chaos. Large systems seem to inevitably fail.

You speak of begging questions, and your post to this point would prompt a host of questions for me. It would start with nailing down what exactly a mystical experience is and what exactly causes it or induces it.

I do not want you to relate your specific experience for that isn't important (other than to you of course). Instead it is material to understand the mechanism behind any mystical experience. Once there is a some understanding of mystical experience, one can then evaluate if it can be used to justify the belief in a god entity.

You state there is a throughline based on similar mystical experiences in contradictory religions. I assume you mean they each connect or derive from the same source, which you identify as "God", whatever that term may mean to you. The commonality that jumps out to me is that each case is the reported experience of a human being, such that human behaviour is the first place I would look to understand that commonality.

I suppose when it comes to the world I am still very cynical. Humans are in many ways defective and prone to doing foolish things. We’re horny, messy, angry creatures in a lot of ways and yet we are also capable of incredibly complex reasoning and morality. Marcus Aurelius stands out among emperors for his morality and philosophy for example.
There is an underlying chaos to all things. Reality is full of this chaos and frequently it makes it impossible to be truly rational is a silly world. Before I would of just said that is just the way things are but coming to believe in God the question now begs an answer.

I find perfectly sound, non-religious explanations for the above.

The only thing I have been able to come up with is that this is all a game on some level.

Perhaps if you are trying to reconcile a specific theistic concept with actual reality one might draw such a conclusion.

From my view, however, life and reality are absolutely not a game.

Maybe we shouldn't put so much stock in our truths and should just try and embrace God as what God is.

And that begs the question, "What is God, and how do you know?". What exactly is one supposed to embrace? Whatever moves us or makes us happy? That's fine, but how to reconcile or prioritize conflicting wants and desires between folks. If each is behaving in accordance with the Devine, who's Devine impulse trumps?

I would much rather understand the world and ourselves as objectively as possible and use that as the starting point for figuring out how we can best live life together in as much social harmony as we can muster.

I've gotten results from doing things like praying, dancing, chanting the names of God and so many other things I used to think was pointless. Now I get to revel in it and on some level embrace what I used to think was madness.

And this is wonderful. I'm glad you have a reliable way of creating joy in your life. :)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
"There are things that I came to believe after studying various religions and philosophies which shaped the way I viewed said religions and the world itself. For instance studying early Buddhism lead me to believe that the Buddha never claimed to be divine and was far from perfect. Studying early Christianity lead me to believe that Jesus never claimed to be God and that this was a later edition to the religion. Maybe not super late but after Jesus’s life at least." from the OP.

I believe that view to be false. Such a view will lead to a total lack of understanding of Christianity.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I'm glad you have developed a belief system that is working for you.

I am curious though, as to why you have chosen to share this under Religious Debates. Are you wanting folks to challenge your beliefs? If so, why? If you are happy and content, what is your goal in debating your views?

Thanks.

I believe he said he wanted proof. After all, we all want a solid rock to stand on.
 
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