Exactly what it says on the tin. Have at it!
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Ask me anything about Eastern Catholicism
- Thread starter Shiranui117
- Start date
Do you have a pope? If so, who is he?
And most importantly, is his hat more fabulous than the Roman Pope's?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Are there anything specific that it differs from Roman Catholicism other than the authority of the Pope, liturgy, and role of the priest and marriage? Are there more intimate differences within both Churches or are they mostly theological?
Ignorant Philosopher
Freethinker
What is, in your experience, the most common reason people follow that form of Christianity?
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
What's the differences (theologically & otherwise) between Eastern Catholicism & Orthodox Christianity, and Eastern Catholicism & Roman Catholicism?
Is Eastern Catholicism just Eastern orthodoxy under the jurisdiction of Rome, or does it have any unique doctrine and practices not found in EO?
Has anything from Roman Catholicism made it's way into Eastern Catholicism? For example, praying the rosary or the differentiation between venial and moral sin?
Has anything from Roman Catholicism made it's way into Eastern Catholicism? For example, praying the rosary or the differentiation between venial and moral sin?
I don't think the Greek Orthodox and the Ecumenical Patriarchate have, but then again Eastern Catholics have a much smaller presence in the southern Balkans and in Turkey compared to elsewhere. That said, I find that revanchism and phyletism (AKA ethnic tribalism) is much less of an issue among Eastern Catholics than among our Orthodox brethren.
That depends on the Eastern Catholic Church in question--there are 22 sui iuris (self-governing) Eastern Catholic Churches. Some of us have our own Patriarchs (like the Coptic Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Armenian Catholics, and Melkite Catholics), but some other Eastern Catholic Churches just have Metropolitans (AKA archbishops) or major archbishops (who are Patriarchs in all but name). The Ukrainian Greek-Catholics technically only have a Major Archbishop named Sviatoslav, but he is called a Patriarch by the members of his church. The Ukrainians are basically my second home whenever I'm at university and away from my Byzantine Catholic parish.
The head of my church, the Byzantine Catholic Church, is Metropolitan William Skurla. Since our church is basically like an archdiocese and we're not attached to another Eastern Catholic Patriarchate, we are by default under the Pope of Rome. The Melkites here in town are, however, under Patriarch Gregory of Antioch.
By far.
Patriarch Sviatoslav has also got it going on:
The Armenian Catholic Patriarch has a hat just like the Pope's, except his is way cooler (he's the one on the left, Pope Francis is in the middle behind another person) :
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Ehhhh... There are two answers to this question.
Answer 1--According to traditional boundaries, Roman Catholicism stretches form the westernmost part of Europe until it hits the border between Poland and Belarus, Subcarpathian Ruthenia, and the Balkans. Everything from then on, including the Caucus Mountains and parts of India is Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox. Eastern Catholicism also spreads down into Egypt, Eritrea and Ethiopia. (And as a fun fact, just last year the Eritrean Catholic Church got independence from the Ethiopian Catholic Church. I have met one of their bishops before, when he came to my parish to meet with the Eritrean community that worships with us, since they don't have their own priest.) Beyond those points, Roman Catholicism kicks back in--being under oppressive Muslim rule where only Islam was legally allowed to spread, the Eastern Christians were wholly unable to evangelize any further eastward, whereas Roman Catholicism spread with colonialism. So between Eastern Europe, Northeast Africa and Western Asia are the Eastern Catholic heartlands (and by extension, the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox heartlands).
Answer 2--the immigration age has really muddled the boundaries. You'll find Eastern Catholics all over the world now--in fact, my own Ruthenian (Byzantine) Catholic Church was established in the US, and we number a little over 100 thousand faithful, let alone all the other Eastern Catholics from all the other Churches here in the country. As more people emigrate from traditionally Eastern Christian countries, they will bring their Eastern Catholicism and their Orthodoxy with them to their new homelands.
Theologically, Eastern Catholics are basically identical to their Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox counterparts, except we also accept the post-Schism Roman doctrines and dogmas. We accept the authority of the Pope as stated by Vatican I and II. We have our own Saints, many of whom are not found on the Roman calendar--for example, the Oriental Catholics have St. Severus of Antioch and Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria as Saints, both of whom are traditionally not well-received in the Byzantine and Roman Churches. Likewise, we Byzantine Catholics have St. Photios the Great of Constantinople and St. Gregory Palamas, the former of whom was denounced by Roman Catholics as a schismatic and borderline heretic for centuries (and many old-school Romans still hate his guts), and the theology of St. Gregory Palamas was severely misunderstood as being some kind of heresy by Romans for about 500 years before they finally started to figure out what it is that he actually taught.
Most Eastern Catholics are born into it--we make up a pretty tiny portion of the Catholic Church (only 18 million of us, compared to 1 billion Catholics total), and given that we're mainly a diaspora in countries that already have a strong Roman Catholic presence with established dioceses, there's nowhere else that we can really spread to and be the dominant Catholic Church in outside of our heartlands. There are some Roman Catholics like myself who are drawn to the Eastern Catholic Churches because we find that the spirituality of the Eastern Churches fits us better--we enjoy the prayer life, the different emphases within spirituality, an increased emphasis on the Church Fathers and asceticism, more fasting, and a far more robust and reverent liturgical tradition (ever since the Roman Church completely gutted and watered down the Mass to make it more Protestant-like after Vatican II). Interestingly, Eastern Orthodox who convert to the Catholic Church are also automatically assigned to the Eastern Catholic Church that is their counterpart--for example, a Coptic Orthodox would automatically become a Coptic Catholic, a Russian Orthodox a Russian Catholic, an Antiochian Orthodox a Melkite Catholic, etc.). In the case that a Roman Catholic marries an Eastern Catholic, any children they have are automatically considered Eastern Catholic.
Ignorant Philosopher
Freethinker
How can a new born child be religious?
In layman's terms, pretty much, except that there are a group of Eastern Catholic Churches who came from the Oriental Orthodox, and not the Eastern Orthodox. We also accept all the post-Schism Roman Catholic doctrines and dogmas, we are completely fine with the Immaculate Conception of Mary, St. Augustine's idea of Original Sin, Papal Infallibility, the Filioque and Purgatory, even if we have alternative explanations for the theological things on that list.
Many Eastern Catholics will pray the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet, and my Ukrainian Greek-Catholic parish up near where I go to university prays the Rosary before the Divine Liturgy on Sundays. Normatively, however, we try to discourage Latinization in our churches; there was an era where Eastern Catholic churches were heavily Latinized, including the removal of our iconostases (the icon-screens that separate the sanctuary from where the congregation stands/sits) from our churches, installing altar rails, forbidding married Eastern Catholic men from becoming priests outside of our traditional territories in the diaspora, and other things like this. I've heard different Eastern Catholics saying whether that was mandated by the Roman Church or whether the Eastern Catholics themselves were instituting these changes to fit in with the Roman Catholics and be more socially acceptable, though.
Nowadays, however, there's a big drive to revitalize our authentic Eastern Catholic traditions and do away with the Latinizations; Pope St. John Paul II actively encouraged us to do this, and Popes Benedict and Francis have done likewise. The deacon at my Byzantine parish has refused requests from some parishioners to start a Rosary club at the parish, saying that they can do the Jesus Prayer instead, but if they want to have a Rosary club, they can go to one hosted by the Roman parishes in the area.
The distinction between venial and mortal sin is there in Eastern Catholicism, though I wouldn't necessarily say that that's a Latinization. There has definitely been cross-pollenation, though; Roman Catholics are increasingly starting to take an interest in the Desert Fathers, the Church Fathers, the Jesus Prayer, iconography, and the Byzantine concept of theosis. Comparing the Roman Catholic spirituality of today vs. several hundred years ago, there is far less emphasis on merits, indulgences, Purgatory and the now-defunct idea of Limbo, and much more emphasis on a personal relationship with God, on becoming united to Him through our own personal transformation, on God's love and mercy, and on what God's eternality and omnipresence implies for our spiritual life. Likewise, we Eastern Catholics have definitely taken in a lot of influence from the Roman Church. It's a healthy, organic exchange of ideas, concepts and practices, and honestly one of the reasons that so many Catholics love the diversity that we have within our Church.
Hoo boy, here's the doozy. Volumes can and have been written on this subject. Because of that, I'm going to keep this at the entry-level, but feel free to ask for further elaboration.
Theological differences between Eastern Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity: Effectively none. All Eastern Catholic Churches will have the same theology as their Eastern and Oriental Orthodox counterparts--Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox are the same, Ukrainian Greek-Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox are the same, Russian Catholics and Orthodox are the same, Armenian Catholics and Orthodox are the same... You get the picture. The only theological difference between the two, if you want to call it that, are that the Eastern Catholics do not see certain unique Roman Catholic doctrines and theological ideas as being heretical, but rather as being complementary to the Byzantine and Oriental theological ideas.
Ecclesiological (i.e. hierarchical) differences between Eastern Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity: Quite a lot. Eastern Catholics accept the authority of the Pope of Rome--he is the head of the Church Universal, and accept that he has infallibility when declaring an official teaching on faith and morals to be held by all the faithful that has been made in consultation with his brother bishops and in accordance with the Apostolic Tradition. Eastern Catholics have their own separate Catholic Churches, and 22 or 23 of them are self-governing (i.e. are not subject to any Roman bishop except the Pope himself), with many of them having Patriarchs just as their Orthodox counterparts do. The Eastern Catholics are united to the Pope of Rome and the Magisterium (i.e. bishops, cardinals and the heads of the various Vatican committees and commissions that handle the various aspects of Church life and faith), which means that if any of the Eastern Catholic Churches ever have some kind of MASSIVE issue with anything to do with the faith or with canon law that needs to be handled on the pan-Catholic level, they can get it sorted out in a far more organized and streamlined manner than the Orthodox can.
tl;dr, the Eastern Catholics are mostly still self-governing like their Orthodox counterparts, but they are also united to the rest of the Catholic Church, which on the whole is more centralized and organized than the Orthodox Church. We also recognize the Pope's authority, and though the Eastern Catholic Churches with Patriarchs don't usually need to answer to the Pope for anything, they still acknowledge him as top dog at the end of the day, and the Pope is still the referee when crap hits the fan for whatever reason. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is something that is VERY hotly debated in the dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox.
Ecclesiological differences between Eastern Catholicism and Roman Catholicism: Outside of a few cosmetic things (i.e. an Eastern Catholic Metropolitan is basically the same thing as a Roman Archbishop), the basic structure of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches is the exact same; you have deacons, priests, bishops, and synods (gatherings of bishops; Roman Catholics have synods for regions, whereas Eastern Catholics have synods for our entire church, like the College of Cardinals for the Romans). Fun fact: Eastern Catholic bishops, priests, Major Archbishops and Patriarchs can be Cardinals, and as such can vote for the Pope. Roman Catholics and self-governing Eastern Catholics have separate hierarchies--a Roman Catholic answers to a Roman bishop, not an Eastern one, and vice-versa in most cases. Eastern Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church each have their own set of canon law that only applies to them.
Also, in the Eastern Catholic Churches, married men can be ordained as priests. In the Roman Church, only celibate men are eligible for the priesthood.
Liturgical, prayer and spiritual differences between Eastern Catholicism and Roman Catholicism: As far as differences liturgical and musical traditions between Roman and Eastern Catholics go... Well, nothing like seeing it for yourself. Here's a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy. If you have time, you can go ahead and watch some or all of it to get an idea for how the liturgy, prayer, music, worship and architecture between Roman and Byzantine Catholicism differs.
Note: Not all Eastern Catholic Liturgies will look like this--the Coptic Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics and Armenian Catholics all have their own liturgical and prayer traditions. What I am going to say below applies only to the Byzantine-rite Eastern Catholics, as I am not informed enough to be able to properly do justice to Oriental Catholicism.
Outside of liturgical differences, Roman and Eastern Catholicism have very different emphases in terms of spirituality. Roman Catholicism is big on the Rosary, statues of Jesus, Mary and the Saints, Eucharistic Adoration (that is, keeping a piece of the Eucharist wafer and worshipping it, and therefore Jesus, since the Eucharistic bread and wine is literally Jesus), having Mary as a "mommy", so to speak, and the Romans also think of beholding God in Heaven as the end goal of salvation.
Eastern Catholicism, on the other hand, does not have the Rosary or Eucharistic Adoration. Instead, we say the Jesus Prayer on a prayer rope (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, have mercy on me, a sinner), and we have icons of Jesus, Mary, the Saints, and various events that happened in the Bible. We view icons as windows to who and what they depict. Just as soldiers honor their country by saluting the country's flag, so we give honor to Jesus, Mary and the Saints by venerating icons (generally done by making the Sign of the Cross, bowing and kissing the icon). Icons are, however, NEVER worshipped, not even icons of Jesus. Many devout Byzantine Catholics keep icon corners in their home, where they keep their prayer books, prayer rope, holy water, incense burner, candles/lamps, icons, crosses, Bibles and other things. Here's my modest little one on my bedroom windowsill:
We have no Eucharistic Adoration, because we believe that the Eucharist is meant to be consumed. We believe that the end goal of salvation is theosis, or becoming more and more like God, for all of eternity. Through becoming more and more like God, we partake of His Divine Energies, and thus grow ever closer in communion with Him, for all eternity, without end. Theosis is both the end goal of salvation, and the means of attaining salvation--through repentance, seeking God's mercy, and improving ourselves, we become more and more like God and perfected in virtue. We honor Mary as the Theotokos (Greek for "Mother of God"), and ask for her prayers, though it has been my experience that the Romans usually think of Mary as more of a tender, loving mother to us all, just as if we were children and she was our biological mother. I can't say that I've noticed quite the "emotional" or "sentimental" side of that quite as much among Byzantine Catholics, though we certainly do ask for her intercession and we do feel that she is a woman under whose prayerful protection we can take refuge.
Both the Roman and Byzantine things are ultimately all pointing to the same realities, and nothing above is a hard contradiction, and neither side is wrong--our respective liturgical and spiritual traditions are different facets of the same Apostolic Tradition.
To be continued...
Continued...
Theological differences between Eastern Catholicism and Roman Catholicism: And here is the part that takes a LOT of explaining. I'm going to see how short I can get this while still getting in all the important information. I already covered how Romans and Byzantines think of the end goal of salvation and how we think of Mary, but there's a lot more to it than that. To give a few points of comparison...
-Roman Catholics believe in Purgatory, a place after death for people who are definitely going to Heaven, but because they are still "scuffed up" by the effects of their sins in life, they need to be purged of those aftereffects in Purgatory before they can experience the full force of the fire of God's love. Roman Catholics once upon a time thought of this as a place of punishment, like getting a jail sentence, but I think the idea's starting to shift away from that. Byzantine Catholics basically have the same idea, we just don't call it Purgatory, and we believe that Purgatory and Heaven aren't separate. We instead like to use the metaphor of a man who comes out of a dark cave into the bright sunlight. The light will burn his eyes for a few minutes, and he might get sunburn after the first couple days, but soon his eyes have adjusted to the light of day, and his sunburn has turned into a tan so he can withstand the sun. So in other words, Purgatory and Heaven for us are the same thing--it's just a matter of adjusting to the absolute love and radiance that is Heaven.
-Roman Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son, and say so in their version of the Nicene Creed. We stick to the original wording of the Creed, and say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (notice that the Son is not included in this). Many Eastern Orthodox say that the Roman formulation is heretical--if you want to know why, I can explain in a follow-up post. Eastern Catholics don't see the Roman view as heretical, but we definitely do share the same opinion as the Orthodox that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, as the Father is the source of the Trinity. The Romans look at the procession of the Holy Spirit as that occurs within time--the Holy Spirit comes forth from the Father, and the Son sends the Holy Spirit into the world. We Eastern Catholics look at the procession of the Holy Spirit as it happens outside of time--the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, just as the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, before all time.
-Roman Catholics believe in what is known as "Original Sin", an idea espoused by St. Augustine. This idea asserts that, when Adam and Eve fell, their sin corrupted humanity, and so now our free will is impaired, our senses darkened, and we are subject to death, suffering, disease, inclinations towards sin, and a certain "debt" to God. We broke our pact with God, and we became unable to make amends; this inability to make amends or pay the penalty for breaking the debt is what St. Augustine called Original Sin, and according to Roman Catholic teaching, every human since then has been born with this debt. Byzantine Catholicism agrees with everything except the idea that we were born with a "debt" or a "penalty" that we had to pay, but we still have all the other stuff to worry about. Rather than looking at the matter primarily with legal metaphors like Sts. Augustine and Anselm of Canterbury did, we instead look at the Fall of Adam and Eve relationally and medicinally; they betrayed God through sin, and that introduced a gulf of alienation and a disease of sin. As the millennia wore on and humanity kept sinning like how Adam did, we kept widening that gap and getting sicker and sicker. Jesus had to therefore become incarnate and bridge the gulf of alienation, heal our human nature, unite it to His Divinity, and reopen to us the gates of Paradise (Byzantine and Roman view), and pay back the debt/penalty that we couldn't (Roman view).
Speaking of which, if you want to know the Roman and Byzantine views of how exactly Jesus atoned for us on the Cross and in the Resurrection...
-The Byzantine and Roman views are a composite of these four things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_influence_theory_of_atonement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_theory_of_atonement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory_of_atonement
And the Roman view adds this one on top of the rest, whereas the Byzantine leaves it out entirely:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_theory_of_atonement
-Because of the above, Roman Catholics ran into the question of Mary. Both Byzantine and Roman Catholics believe Mary was sinless throughout her entire life, protected by the grace of God. Roman Catholics believe that God exempted Mary from the penalty incurred by Original Sin, so she would be able to bear God in her womb for 9 months straight without basically exploding. I mean, people died just from touching the Ark of the Covenant. Having God Himself inside your womb for 9 months? Talk about an increase in magnitude of power there! So logically, in the Roman view, Mary had to be conceived without this penalty, otherwise there was no way she could possibly give birth to God. Byzantine Catholics, however, never had this problem, as we don't believe in St. Augustine's idea of Original Sin in the first place.
Whew! I think that's the major stuff. Let me know if you would like any points to be further explained!
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Wow, thanks for your detailed responses. I've not read my way through them yet - I just wanted to jump ahead and thank you in advance for the plethora of information you've given me. Clicking my alert took me to the second one and when I saw "Continued..." I thought 'oh boy, I'm gonna be here a while'. And that's great! I especially love the picture of your icon corner. I especially love the dedicated vial of Holy Water and the sizeable Orthodox Crucifix on the left.. At risk of making a mockery of it (that's not my intent); all it's missing is the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!
It'll take me a while to read through all of this and to make up any further questions so if I don't respond right away please don't think I've not bothered to read anything you've written.
Wu Wei
ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Thank you
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
K. I've thought of one more (in all this time). What's the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Orthodoxy? What are the similarities between the EP and the Papacy in Catholicism? What are the differences?
1. What is the role of music in your tradition?
2. Is there a reason for using robes? Are they considered plain or fancy? Are they made of special materials?
2. Is there a reason for using robes? Are they considered plain or fancy? Are they made of special materials?
Just curious, why the Idolatry in both forms of Catholicism ?