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Featured Ask me any bible related question!

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by anonymous9887, May 20, 2018.

  1. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I've posted on this before, and I think you responded. Some scientists believe, at most, the ice is only 80,000 y-o

    Science, by its own definition, refuses to acknowledge any non- material / non-natural explanations, theshe scientists are not going to admit to any explanation that includes the supernatural, like the Biblical Flood, even though that does fit all the evidence that's been discovered. Most of the following scientists and data.....

    Valentina V. Ukraintseva, Vegetation Cover and Environment of the “Mammoth Epoch” in Siberia (Hot Springs, South Dakota: The Mammoth Site of Hot Springs, 1993)


    u N. A. Dubrovo et al., “Upper Quaternary Deposits and Paleogeography of the Region Inhabited by the Young Kirgilyakh Mammoth,” International Geology Review, Vol. 24, June 1982,


    R. Dale Guthrie, Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppe (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1990)



    Henry H. Howorth, The Mammoth and the Flood (London: Samson Low, Marston, Searle, and Rivington, 1887)


    A. E. Nordenskiold, The Voyage of the Vega Round Asia and Europe, translated from Swedish by Alexander Leslie (New York: Macmillan and Co., 1882)


    E. Ysbrants Ides, Three Years [of] Land Travels from Moscow Over-Land to China (London: W. Freeman, 1706) English edition. In 1692, Russia’s Czar Peter the Great directed Ides to explore the vast eastern region of Russia. The natives told Ides (p. 26) that mammoth carcasses were found, “sometimes whole,” “among the hills [yedoma],” along four named rivers and the Arctic coast. The bones in one mammoth’s head were “somewhat red, as tho’ they were tinctured with blood” and a forefoot, cut from a leg, was as big around as a man’s waist.


    u One of the earliest descriptions of frozen mammoths, written in 1724, was authenticated by Dr. Daniel Gottlieb Messerschmidt, a naturalist sent to Siberia by Czar Peter the Great to inquire, among other things, into the frozen mammoth stories. Although Messerschmidt did not personally see the frozen partial remains, his eyewitness, Michael Wolochowicz, described the find in a short report. The report’s credibility is enhanced by its similarity with many later, thoroughly verified accounts. [See John Breyne, “Observations on the Mammoth’s Bones and Teeth Found in Siberia,” Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London, Vol. 40, January–June 1737, pp. 125–138.]


    E. W. Pfizenmayer, Siberian Man and Mammoth, translated from German by Muriel D. Simpson (London: Black & Son Limited, 1939), p. 4.



    John Massey Stewart, “Frozen Mammoths from Siberia Bring the Ice Ages to Vivid Life,” Smithsonian, 1977, p. 67.


    N. K. Vereshchagin and G. F. Baryshnikov, “Paleoecology of the Mammoth Fauna in the Eurasian Arctic,” Paleoecology of Beringia, editors David M. Hopkins et al. (New York: Academic Press, 1982), p. 276.


    Harold E. Anthony, “Nature’s Deep Freeze,” Natural History, Vol. 58, September 1949, p. 300.


    Michael R. Zimmerman and Richard H. Tedford, “Histologic Structures Preserved for 21,300 Years,” Science, Vol. 194, 8 October 1976, pp. 183–184.


    Charles H. Eden, Frozen Asia (New York: Pott, Young & Co., 1879), pp. 97–100.


    A. G. Maddren, “Smithsonian Exploration in Alaska in 1904 in Search of Mammoth and Other Fossil Remains,” Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections, Vol. 49, 1905, p. 101.


    W. H. Dall, “Presentation to the Biological Society of Washington,” Science, 8 November 1895, pp. 635–636.


    N. A. Transehe, “The Siberian Sea Road: The Work of the Russian Hydrographical Expedition to the Arctic 1910–1915,” The Geographical Review, Vol. 15, 1925, p. 392.


    Adrian Lister and Paul Bahn, Mammoths (New York: Macmillan, 1994), p. 46.


    A. P. Vinogradov et al., “Radiocarbon Dating in the Vernadsky Institute I–IV,” Radiocarbon, Vol. 8, 1966, pp. 320–321.


    Robert M. Thorson and R. Dale Guthrie, “Stratigraphy of the Colorado Creek Mammoth Locality, Alaska,” Quaternary Research, Vol. 37, March 1992, pp. 214–228.


    Richard Stone, “Mammoth Hunters Put Hopes on Ice,” Science, Vol. 291, 12 January 2001, pp. 229–230.


    I. P. Tolmachoff, The Carcasses of the Mammoth and Rhinoceros Found in the Frozen Ground of Siberia(Philadelphia: The American Philosophical Society, 1929), p. 71.


    Eske Willerslev et al., “Diverse Plant and Animal Genetic Records from Holocene and Pleistocene Sediments,” Science, Vol. 300, 2 May 2003, pp. 791–795.


    ".....climate change played a big role in the mass extinction of mammoths, ground sloths, and other large North American mammals....."Erik Stokstad, “Ancient DNA Pulled from Soil,” Science, Vol. 300, 18 April 2003, p. 407.


    H. Neuville, “On the Extinction of the Mammoth,” Annual Report of the Smithsonian Institution, 1919, p. 332.


    Nikolai K. Vereshchagin and Alexei N. Tikhonov, The Exterior of Mammoths (Yakutsk, Siberia: Merelotovedenia Institute, 1990), p. 18. (Russian)


    Richard B. Firestone et al., “Evidence for an Extraterrestrial Impact 12,900 Years Ago That Contributed to the Megafaunal Extinctions and the Younger Dryas Cooling,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, Vol. 104, 9 October 2007, pp. 16016–16021......
    ....provide interpretations that simply doesn't fit with all the evidence, as the global Flood does, accompanied by the resultant climate and geologic changes.

    They never will accept an explanation that fits all the evidence comprehensively. (Unless they're from the Discovery Institute).
     
  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    To the tune of Hank Williams junior singing

    "So don't ask me, Hank why do you drink? Hank, why do you roll smoke?
    Why must you live out the songs that you wrote?"

    We ask, "Cowboy, why do you gish? Cowboy, why do you blow smoke"?

    None of your gish has what they call "diddly squat" to do with antarctic ice or age thereof.


    "Some scientists believe, at most, the ice is only 80,000 y-o"

    No names, no data, just your statement.

    And of course, 80,000 would eliminate the bible story of the flood as well as 200,000 years would.
     
  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    But yet, that's exactly what Jesus said to do at Matthew 28:19-20. I'll give you this, though: he certainly didn't force people. His ways, and what he taught, were quite different from Christendom's dogma and the reputation they've built for themselves!
     
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  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    As I explained (Did you miss that? And apparently, you don't remember our past exchange.)

    I'll try to find the info.
     
  5. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I am sure you can interpret the bible to give any dates you like.
    I am not interested in how you do that.

    Try to dig up some on why you gish.

    And if you can dig this up-



    "Some scientists believe, at most, the ice is only 80,000 y-o"

    No names, no data, just your statement.
     
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    It wasn't Antarctica, it was Greenland. The Greenland GISP 2 ice core.

    My previous references still stand.
     
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  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    The age of antarctic ice shows that no flood
    such as described in the bible ever happened.

    Simple as that. A mammoth gish wont
    alter that simple fact.
     
  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Well, I appreciate your amiable reply, and I understand the need for skepticism...grief, we can't believe everything we hear or read, without some evidence!

    But coming to a conclusion on whether an event happened or not, should be based on all the evidence. Not just 50% of it, to the exclusion of the other half....especially if that other half tends to be contradictory to what's accepted.

    Something I always keep in mind, too, is Revelation 12:9b and 1 John 5:19. (And it's not for nothing that Jesus' words are recorded at John 12:30.)
    Confusion and "lack of peace" are rife!
    Don't most people want and desire peace? Then why can't humans acquire it? It's as if 'something' is working against humans accomplishing that goal!

    Then there is paranormal activity....simply too much for it all to be faked! This world is messed up.
     
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  9. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Hell yes.
     
  10. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

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    Any progress on my question regarding who the 12 disciples were?
     
  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Your weird notion that "flood"fits all the evidence simply is not so.
    It fits none of it. Zero.
    "Magic makes it fit" is for children. Or the profoundly superstitious.
     
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    What you believe to be a fact.. Scientists determining the age of -- whatever -- oftentimes rely on uniformitarianism, basically judging by the parameters that exist today...and that's faulty science, right there. The explosion of Krakatoa....global warming we're experiencing now....etc., these things argue for catastrophism, and against a gradualistic uniformitarian view, geologically speaking.

    Question: how old do the mountain ranges, like the Himalayas, the Alps, the Grand Tetons, etc. -- how old do they look to you?
    There's no way they are millions of years old! The rocks, maybe -- I'm not a YEC -- but not the features they form! They are relatively young, with sharply defined features. With the amount of erosion they experience, with high winds and chilly precipitation, if they were millions of years old, these ranges would be rounded stumps!! Anyone observing without biased glasses, can easily tell.

    More evidence for the Earth-transforming Flood.
     
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Or so you've been told. Misled, actually. But don't worry, you're not alone.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No, one has to be very uneducated, very dishonest, or rather mentally ill to believe that story. Most believers are too afraid to discuss it rationally.
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Oh my, you really really dont know from geology, do you?

    Uniform v catas is so 19th century! "Uniform" in the sense that the
    same physical laws apply in the same way, now as then.

    You might notice that there is no bright line distinction between a
    catastrophe and a "gradual" process. Think on that a bit, if you will.
    Of course there are massive volcanic explosions, among which your
    Krakatoa was mere babe in arms. There is also the great plains of
    Nebraska Dakota, Kansas, that is deeply covered in fine grained
    outwash from the Rockies, patiently carried east by sluggish rivers
    like the Platte, that continues doing so to this day. No catastrophe there.

    The Tetons btrw are about ten million yrs old and are sill rising.
    It is so terrifically helpful to actually read some historical geology
    rather than thinking you can figure it out yourself with a bible
    and some ideology!


    Just one tiny q...do you think erosion can actually produce
    sharp ridges, pointed peaks?
     
    #155 Audie, May 21, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I appreciate your 'informative' rating.
    (You mind if I call you AVM?)

    Other questions could be raised, one being about what the torment means.

    I'm tired, so I'll just post a link. Keep in mind, the Bible really says 'the dead are dead...they know nothing'. So how could they be tormented? What other way could "torment" be understood?

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004454#h=4:0-4:667



    Any questions, please ask. Take care, AVM.
     
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  17. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    The following article covers the topic thoroughly and more completely that the one you posted:

    "While it is true that a city does currently exist on the island, that city is not a “rebuilt” Tyre and has no real connection to the city condemned by Ezekiel other than its location. If the history of Tyre is traced more completely, it becomes evident that even the island city of Tyre suffered complete destruction. Fleming noted that in approximately A.D. 193. “Tyre was plundered and burned after a fearful slaughter of her citizens” (1966, p. 73). Around the year 1085, the Egyptians “succeeded in reducing Tyre, which for many years had been practically independent” (p. 85). Again, in about 1098, the Vizier of Egypt “entered the city and massacred a large number of people” (p. 88). In addition, the city was besieged in A.D. 1111 (p. 90), and again in April of 1124 (p. 95). Around the year 1155, the Egyptians entered Tyre, “made a raid with fire and sword...and carried off many prisoners and much plunder” (p. 101).

    In addition to the military campaigns against the city, at least two major earthquakes pummeled the city, one of which “ruined the wall surrounding the city” (p. 115). And ultimately, in A.D. 1291, the Sultan Halil massacred the inhabitants of Tyre and subjected the city to utter ruin. “Houses, factories, temples, everything in the city was consigned to the sword, flame and ruin” (p. 122). After this major defeat in 1291, Fleming cites several travel logs in which visitors to the city mention that citizens of the area in 1697 were “only a few poor wretches...subsisting chiefly upon fishing” (p. 124). In 1837, another earthquake pounded the remains of the city so that the streets were filled with debris from fallen houses to such a degree that they were impassable (p. 128).


    Taking these events into consideration, it is obvious that many nations continued to come against the island city, that it was destroyed on numerous occasions, and that it became a place for fishing, fulfilling Ezekiel’s prediction about the spreading of nets. Furthermore, it is evident that the multiple periods of destruction and rebuilding of the city have long since buried the Phoenician city that came under the condemnation of Ezekiel. The Columbia Encyclopedia, under its entry for Tyre, noted: “The principal ruins of the city today are those of buildings erected by the Crusaders. There are some Greco-Roman remains, but any left by the Phoenicians lie underneath the present town” (“Tyre,” 2006, emp. added)."

    "Thus, the only connection that the present town maintains with the ancient one in Ezekiel’s day is location, and the present buildings, streets, and other features are not “rebuilt” versions of the original city. If Ezekiel’s prophecy extended to the island city as well as the mainland city, it can be maintained legitimately that the ruins lying underneath the city have not been “rebuilt.”
    http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=13&article=1790
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, that fails. It ignores the fact that Tyre was regularly attacked before the prophesy. The fact that the prophesy failed is not a valid excuse to extend it. Nebby was the "many countries" . If you read the Old Testament you will find him referred road the "king of kings". He was the many countries as demonstrated by the second part of this failed prophesy that Nebuchadnezzar would attack and defeat Egypt too. He didn't. Zeke was 0 for 2 when it came to Tyre.
     
  19. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

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    Here's one. Tim McGrew (lots of videos on YouTube) claims there are errors of the type we see with eyewitness accounts, yet he believes in inerrancy of the Bible. Yet if there are errors, no matter how small, we can't know which words, verses, and passages are true and which are errors.

    Seems to me the whole of Christianity depends on some sort of dictation theory (perhaps using the mind of the writer) of God creating scripture, but if there are errors, why would God dictate errors?
     
  20. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Whether Tyre was regularly attacked before the prophecy does not invalidate the prophecy or the fact that it was subsequently attacked never to be rebuilt again. Nebuchadnezzar was not the "many nations", the Bible passage makes a clear distinction between he (Nebuchadnezzear) and they (many nations) and as history shows many other nations besieged Tyre, according to the prophecy.

    "Regarding the prediction that “many nations” would come against Tyre, the historical records surrounding the illustrious city report such turmoil and war that Ezekiel’s prophecy looks like a mild understatement of the facts. After Nebuchadnezzar’s attack of the city “a period of great depression” plagued the city which was assimilated into the Persian Empire around 538 B.C. (Fleming, p. 47). In 392 B.C., “Tyre was involved in the war which arose between the Persians and Evagorus of Cyprus” in which the king of Egypt “took Tyre by assault” (p. 52). Sixty years later, in 332, Alexander the Great besieged Tyre and crushed it (see below for further elaboration). Soon after this defeat, Ptolemy of Egypt conquered and subjugated Tyre until about 315 B.C. when Atigonus of Syria besieged Tyre for 15 months and captured it (Fleming, p. 65). In fact, Tyre was contested by so many foreign forces that Fleming wrote: “It seemed ever the fate of the Phoenician cities to be between an upper and a nether millstone” (p. 66). Babylon, Syria, Egypt, Rome, Greece, Armenia, and Persia are but a sampling of the “many nations” that had a part in the ultimate destruction of Tyre. Thus, Ezekiel’s prophecy about “many nations” remains as a historical reality that cannot be successfully gainsaid."
    http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=13&article=1790
     
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