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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Mark1615, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. EiNsTeiN

    EiNsTeiN Boo-h!

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    Hi everybody, I have some questions for you :)

    1)From where did you conclude the trinity principle?
    2)Did Jesus came for specific people (children of Israel) or to the whole world?

    thank you in advance
     
  2. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

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    Why did'nt Adam die the day he ate the forbidden fruitlike God said he would. He lived to be 930 years old.

    Genesis 2:17 (New International Version)


    17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
     
  3. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Very good question. It is interesting to note that in the book of Job, Satan had to ask for permission to "attack" Job. Also in 1 Kings 22:21, an evil spirit came before God and asked if it could be a "lying spirit" in the words of a certain man's prophets. So, we have here strong evidence - not necessarily proof - that it is by God's will that Satan and demons have power.

    And this brings us to the next logical question, "Why hasn't God dealt with evil?" In Dr. Robert Morey's book The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom, he talks with an atheist about this issue. The atheist assumes that everything is relative, and there are no absolutes (he is absolutely sure of that). Morey replies that the first thing an atheist must do is prove the existence of evil. By what process can an atheist identify evil? He must have a universal absolute to do so. Without an absolute reference point for good (which only God can provide), no one can identify what is good or evil. Thus without the existence of God, there is no evil or good in an absolute sense. Everything is relative. The problem of evil does not negate the existence of God. It actually requires it.

    Many assume that because evil still exists today, God has no dealt with it. How can atheists assume that God has not already solved the problem of evil in such a way that neither His goodness nor omnipotence is limited? On what grounds do they limit what God can and cannot do to solve the problem? God has already solved the problem of evil. And He did it in a way in which He did not contradict His nature or the nature of man.

    We assume God will solve the problem of evil in one single act. But why can't He deal with evil in a progressive way? Can't He deal with it throughout time as we know it, and then bring it to the climax on the Day of Judgment?

    God sent His Son to die on the cross in order to solve the problem of evil. Christ atoned for evil and secured the eventual removal of all evil from the earth. One day evil will be quarantined in one spot called hell. Then there will be a perfect world devoid of all evil. If God declared that all evil would, at this moment, cease to exist, you and I and all of humanity would go up in a puff of smoke. Divine judgment demands that sin be punished. Ron Meade
     
  4. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    I believe (though I haven't found much proof) that Satan exists to give us an option - an option to choose between good and evil. The Bible tells us that the Genesis creation was good. There was no sin and therefore no suffering or death. Why then did God give Adam and Eve the ability to sin, knowing full well that they would sin and bring death and pain to the human race? Some believe that if Adam had been created without the ability to choose, then he would have been a robot. A father cannot make his children love him. They choose to love him because they have a free will. Others point out that humanity would never have seen the depth of the love of God, as displayed in the cross, unless Adam had sinned, and that fact could be on reason why God allowed sin to enter the world.

    Your second question is a category mistake - like asking "How big is green?" While God can operate in space and time, this does not mean that He is spatially extended (i.e. He occupies space) given that spatial extension is a quality of material objects, not immaterial objects. God is a spiritual being. Technically speaking, God would fall under the category "Repletive presence" - infinite objects, God being the only one, are ubiquitous (everywhere simultaneously) and omnipresence given His infinite nature.:)
     
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  5. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    First, as I'm sure you are aware, nowhere in the Bible does the word "Trinity" appear. It is a name given to the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit collectively. Acts 16:31 says "And they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, and your house.'" God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. They are the Godhead.

    "In every major phase of the redemption, each Person of the Godhead is directly involved. Their involvement in each successive phase may be set out as follows:
    1. Incarnation. The Father incarnated the Son in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35).
    2. Baptism in the Jordan River. The Spirit descended on the Son, and the Father spoke His approval from heaven (Matthew 3:14-17).
    3. Public Ministry. The Father anointed the Son with the Spirit (Acts 10:38).
    4. The crucifixion. Jesus offered Himself to the Father through the Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
    5. The resurrection. The Father resurrected the Son by the Spirit (Acts 2:32; Romans 1:4).
    6. Pentecost. From the Father the Son received the Spirit, whom He then poured out on His disciples (Acts 2:33).

    Each Person of the Godhead - and I mean this reverently - was jealous to be included in the process of redeeming humanity." Derek Prince, Atonement. If belief in God was the only way to heaven, why then did Jesus and the Holy Spirit play a part in salvation?
     
  6. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should no perish, but have everlasing life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

    Salvation is possible for every person. Romans 5:8-"But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." 2 Corinthians 5:21-"For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Isaiah 53:5,6-"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

    God bless you.
     
  7. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    He certainly did. He died spiritually. The moment he sinned, he became "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). Ezekiel 18:4 says "The soul that sins, it shall die." It is because we are born spiritually dead that Jesus came to give us spiritual life (John 5:40; 10:10; 14:6, etc.). This is why Jesus told us that we must be born again (John 3:3). When we repent of our sins and believe in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that we "pass from death to life" (John 5:24; Romans 6:13; 1 John 3:14).
     
  8. angellous_evangellous

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    Just for the readers' information: this interpretation allows Christians to accept evolution and the Genesis account, as well as affirm the full humanity of Adam and Jesus Christ. That is, the punishment for sin is death, not just death, but death as a punishment. A sinless Adam would have still died because he was human and we know that our bodies aren't immortal. He would have died and simply gone to heaven had he not sinned. However, because Adam sinned he died as a punishment for sin, and death takes on theological meaning. This is John Calvin's interpretation (see his commentary on Genesis.

    Keils and Delitch (sp?) take a different view: Adam was androgenous and immortal until he sinned. AiG also takes this view. Such a view has to reject evolution: no death at all until the first human sins.
     
  9. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Is there anything within Genesis itself to support this view?
     
  10. angellous_evangellous

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    It is an interpretation of Genesis, and I do think that the story sustains this interpretation. God created Adam as a human. Humans are mortal. Adam and Eve both had to eat from the tree of life to live indefinately, but they would die if they did not eat from the tree. They were expelled from the Garden on the day that they sinned, and therefore cut off from the tree of life, fulfilling the judgment of God, "on the day that you eat of the tree you will surely die." So the story itself allows for death before sin (evolution), but not death as punishment for sin.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    the hebrew translated litrerally actualy says "dying, you shall die", it was a spiritual and physical death sentance pronounced by God.
     
  12. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Interesting. I never thought of it like that before. However, to be a Christian and accept macroevolution is a whole other story (and thread).
     
  13. Ibrahim Al-Amin

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    I'm new here, and too lazy to read the entire thread. But I just have one simple question: Where in the Bible does Jesus claim divinity?

    Thank you.
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    One example: John 6:27-51
     
  15. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I'm missing what you are saying...before they ate of the tree of life the could have lived forever since God said nothing about the days of their lives being limited. Are you saying that sin is evolution?...the moment they ate of the tree they had sinned against God therefore they not only became mortal but had the realization of that fact and their punishment WAS death.
     
  16. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    John 1:1-4,14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."
    Hebrews 1:8
    Matthew 1:23
    John 10:38
    John 8:58
    John 6:38, etc.
     
  17. EiNsTeiN

    EiNsTeiN Boo-h!

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    Thank you Mark1615.. :)
    But from what I read from the Bible, I noticed many times that Jesus (peace upon him) mentiond he was sent to children of Israel...I dont remember where exactly in the Bible...
     
  18. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    I'm not quite sure what you mean.
     
  19. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    That verse does not say that Yeshua said directly, "i am your lord, bow before me" If Yeshua did actually say that exact quote, then he just said, basically, "in the beginning was the word...the same then is now.... and the word was made into someone that was around us at one point."
    that's what i get out of it..
     
  20. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    does this mean that God could be a "oneness" within and without us all?
     
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