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Mark1615

Member
Time Spender,
The difference between Moses, Abraham and the other prophets and Jesus is that no one but Jesus claimed to be God. He accepted other people's worship. Moses, Abraham and the others never did. Not even the angels would accept worship. Jesus was the only one who claimed to be able to take away sin. Jesus said, "...that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38). Jesus was called God's Son. No one else was. Jesus was quite different. He was much more than a prophet.
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
muslimbrother said:
I do not know much about other religions (outside my own), so I am here to just learn from you guys.

Questions: What is the difference between the New and Old Testament, and why did the Old Testament have to be changed.

(This question has probably been asked a million times but I still struggle understanding it)

Jesus never said "I am God, Worship Me." But yet he is considered God and is begin worshipped?

If anyone can answer those questions it will help me with my homework, lol

Thanks and Peace to all of you.
ANSWER HIM PLS! :jiggy:
 

Mark1615

Member
AlanGurvey said:
Why did g-d have to send the messiah through human flesh? :)
God loved us so much and wanted us to be with Him in Heaven that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for us (John 3:16-17). He didn't have to do anything for us. Jesus Christ was a manifestation of God. Again, God loved His creation to the point that He would sacrifice Himself for it.

Just imagine the love a father has for his children. He would do anything for them. He would die for them. His children are faced with an agonizing death (i.e. hell), but because of their father's love for them, he takes their place and suffers and dies for them. But there is a catch! Jesus has the authority to lay His life down, but also has the authority to take it up again (John 10:18). Jesus defeated death.

Because Jesus took the punishment of death for us, we never have to. God's mercy is a free gift to anyone who would receive it. Simply, God wanted to show us how much He loves us.
 
angellous_evangellous:
God bless you, too.

Please use paragraphs. My eyes hurt just looking at your post

Oops.sorry!
so i edit it an re-paste it again!!
U know.In this world ,after my muslim brother and sisters, i love Christians.
They are pious and i feel they are closer to us more than other religions.
We have many cooperative properties in our holy religions and thats great.
But there are some differences too! and thats normal.

i want to talk about the "Jesus is God in flesh" and " Jesus died for our sins".
It seems too much confusing.

The problem i have with Christians is that they make Jesus too big. By doing this they forget the main goal.All the prophets are the same. each of them have amazing true stories about their birth.

Moses(Pbuh) has been thrown on a basket and have been put in a river...the conditions were controled by Lord.he has been grown up in the family that his father was his biggest enemy.he has a snakey

wand!! and a glowing hand!
he strikes on the river and makes it in two part and...
everything seems normal when u understand Gods power.

Ibrahim(Pbuh) had a very nice life.
The fire story and how he could escape the heat!
The birds and how Lord made them become alive.
the HAjir(his wife) story and how the zamzam water came out in the desert.
and about how he made the Kabbah.and how he saw a dream and wanted to kill his child. and how Lord

choosed him as a "khalil"(friend) and etc
each miracle is a sign for the main goal...GOD

Mohammad(Pbuh) was borned while his father died and his mother dies when he was near 6! his life was

amazing too.how he didnt know how to read and write.How he marries a woman that is bigger than himself.
how he predicts the eating termite and the remaining Allah. how he bears the hard conditions in

"sheb" and how Allah told him that the kaffirs(perverts) want to kill him and helpt him to escape from makkah and make a muslim society in Madina.he give us a book from God,Quran, with alots of

amazing miracles in it!for example i link some pages:www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_01.html

(also the page 2 and 3!) and www.miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_index.html are not bad.u can

find more in other sites!
all of these seem like a miracle but sure if u understand God well,then u can know the meanings!

Jesus(Pbuh) was born without a father and talked while he was a child.he made the dead come to life and made ills become well.he made a pigen with clay and made it fly.he talked with deads.he could

say what ppl did in their houses and etc
all was God's will and doesnt seem too much complicated to make the "God in flesh" and "died for sins" and etc tenets.

if we understand God well,we will not have any problem with the miracles.
i think Christians have been lost in the biggest miracle (birth without a dad) ( think that all the miracles are the same.all of them have a same aim and goal)
Christians have been confused when they have seen the unusual birth.
They have misunderstood the goal of this birth.And this is dangerous.because it will harm the main

goal. Making the assumtions that Jesus has been sent down to forgive ppl sins and is God in flesh is very very dangerous in our belief.

this is a serious part. and sure God knew that this wil happen and some people will look at the Christ's birth as an "super-miracle" and loose the goal. This is another big EXAM for the humanity history.

Miracles are only to show that someone is a prophet or not! and thats the best way that Lord has

choosen. a logical and acceptable sign.
We should not get ceased by the Miracles.FOr those who believe in prophets its obvious that Miracles are a tool not a goal.

The christians have walked in Gods path correctly and they have done good.but they have only one

problem. one of the signs in the path(Christ's birth) has been shocking.
for me ,as a muslim, birth of Jesus(May God make his ranking high) is a wonderful sign.
When i see the miracle my faith becomes stronger and i say "There is only one God" louder!!

Its intresting to know (i,m sure u know!) that muslims MUST believe in Jesus(Pbuh) because we have a

verse that says" you will not enter paradise until u believe in Jesus(Pbuh)" and thats very cool. I

Love this verse because it has a big meaning:
U will not enter paradise until u accept Jesus as a sign of God and agree with him.

Jesus is one of the biggest signs "ayyat" for our muslims(especially Shia's).
He is the saviour of us too. He is the holy prophet that will come back soon and save the world but

not single.he will have a great man with him. a man that believe in Jesus too and will do many jobs

for him.Mahdi(AS). and thats a wonderful day.Oh Lord,i wish we survive till then and see the

beautiful face of Jesus(Pbuh) and MAhdi(AS)
For me Jeus(Pbuh) is the same as the other prophets.
and the miracles of the prophets is a sign to understand the truth not to add to the truth!
I can call myself a Christian while i believe in Jesus(Pbuh) as prophet that Lord sent sometime to

make his religion alive. I love jesus and i wish he will intermediates for me in the other

World,InshALlah,if God wants.

I think my question is clear now!
sorry for the english Mistakes
and May lord bless Christian brothers and sisters.
Ameen
Peace and wasalam
~mohammad

-----------------
ok and let me continue!
Mark1615 :

Time Spender,
The difference between Moses, Abraham and the other prophets and Jesus is that no one but Jesus
claimed to be God. He accepted other people's worship. Moses, Abraham and the others never did. Not

even the angels would accept worship. Jesus was the only one who claimed to be able to take away

sin. Jesus said, "...that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (John

10:38). Jesus was called God's Son. No one else was. Jesus was quite different. He was much more than a prophet
hmm...very very intresting.I was thinking about your words and i got something!



Jesus said, "...that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him"

well,it seems that the basic of this verse is completly correct.But again. the disciple of Jesus
(Pbuh) who wrote this has understood something wrong.

I agree with the verse but it has a very small mistake.
Let me talk more so my point becomes clear.

we have something in Islam and its called "Villaya"
Now what does it mean?
here,i first paste a quote that i said before!

Its intresting to know (i,m sure u know!) that muslims MUST believe in Jesus(Pbuh) because we have a

verse that says" you will not enter paradise until u believe in Jesus(Pbuh)" and thats very cool.

now the question that jumps on the mind is, why?
will not believing in Lord be enough? Why should we accept Jesus(Pbuh) too?

the answer is one of the important tenets of SHias(Sunnis dont have it but i believe that they agree with it even if they dont accept it as a "ossool"(tenet))

"villaya" is trying to tell us that even if u believe in God but ur direction of moving in his way

is not the same as Gods will then ur lost!
prophets are like a pointer.When u pick up a leader u are fixing a direction and moving towards it.and thats necessary. if u dont have villaya then u will be absorbed by the wrong guys.ur herald

will be not fixed and thats the danger.

Now.I ask myself! why should i believe in Jesus(Pbuh) or Mohammad(Pbuh) to enter paradise??
the answer is that when we die we will be standing in back of our leaders.if our leader goes to hell we will go there with him and vice versa.thats shows the importanse of villaya.
so i can translate the "Father is in me, and I in him" like this : "if u believe in me then u will have God and if u deny me u believe in nothing". and thats very amazing yet serious!

but the very dangerous red boundary pops up!
dont misunderstand this fact! God is God and Human is human.If u mix these things by saying that Jesus is God or devide God and say that the "x" part is jesus the "y" is God and the "z" is the holy

spirit ur wrong. the only similtude between human and God is having one soul.we have a soul that its source is lord.

i have that soul,u have that,Bob has that,Bryan has that and Rebbeca has that too.
The ONly difference between us and the prophets is that their soul is more big and it tends to the God himself but it never equals.(if u know calculus u can understand what i say!)
who ever u call human cant = God! but he can get so near that u can call him "ayyat"(sign)
now,i believe 5 prophets have reached that position:Nuh,Ibrahim,Moses,Jesus and Mohammad (peace upon all)

I still say that we should not Mix obvious things.If u believe God is ONE and no one is like him u

cant break the law and make him 3. ur just confusing urself and then ur demonstrating it!!Birth of Jesus has done God's will.Another big Exam to pure the beliefs.
God wants us to believe in only one thing "He is ONe"
the birth of JEsus(Pbuh) was a hard exam that seperated those who believe in One God and those who

trend to believe in more than one!
Those people that had uncertatainty and doubts in prooving the monotheism will be absorbed to the

beliefs that break the law but those who are fixed in the important point will be with Jesus(Pbuh)

with Love and trust and with the montheism belief and I will kiss their feet and hands,remeber me in ur prayers!:162:

I tried to tell some facts,sorry if it wasnt understandable.
And Sorry for the english mistakes.
I have alots to say in this feild and i love to hear from u.
God Bless u all
God Bless u believers
May Lord be happy with us...Ameen
peace and Wasalam:)
~mohammad
 

darkwaldo

Member
Mark1615 said:
God loved us so much and wanted us to be with Him in Heaven that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for us (John 3:16-17). He didn't have to do anything for us. Jesus Christ was a manifestation of God. Again, God loved His creation to the point that He would sacrifice Himself for it.

Just imagine the love a father has for his children. He would do anything for them. He would die for them. His children are faced with an agonizing death (i.e. hell), but because of their father's love for them, he takes their place and suffers and dies for them. But there is a catch! Jesus has the authority to lay His life down, but also has the authority to take it up again (John 10:18). Jesus defeated death.

Because Jesus took the punishment of death for us, we never have to. God's mercy is a free gift to anyone who would receive it. Simply, God wanted to show us how much He loves us.
:tsk: I don't think you answered my question very well. I'm asking, how do you know Mary wasn't cheating on her husband? Some evidence besides quoted from the bible would be nice. Really, I don't believe there is any way to prove whether she was or not but, since there is nothing supporting your claim that Mary was a virgin, why believe in as strongly as you do?
People back then did not have the knowledge that we do now to explain the things that happen in the world. If the events that happened in the bible happened today, i'm sure they would be explained away somehow. People who talk to god, other than prayer, are thought to be insane, and illusionist can mimic some of the miracles. There is too little evidence and too many possiblities of exaggeration or lies.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
AlanGurvey said:
Why did g-d have to send the messiah through human flesh? :)
For an answer to that (but not one that would usually be referred to by most western Christians) I'd refer you to On the Incarnation by St. Athanasios(http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm). Our view on the significance of the Incarnation is quite different from that of western Christianity in general, though, and I don't wish to hijack Mark's thread, but I'll be willing to do my best to explain if nobody objects and you have neither the time nor the inclination to read St. Athanasios's words.

James
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'd like to jump in on the question, "Why did God have to send the Messiah through human flesh?"

There is an inherent concept of God as being transcendent -- wholly Other than us. Part of the work of reconciliation is that we must learn to become more like God. The overarching story of the Hb scriptures is God's seeking us out. By becoming one of us, God became immanent, or close to us -- not Other. God did this so that we, who live in a physical world, could experience God in that way -- through the senses, and understand the similarities, as well as the remaining differences, between God and humanity.

There is a wonderful picture, which I'm sure you've all seen. It's Michelangelo's depiction of the creation, on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. In the painting, God stretches out a finger from heaven, reaching for humanity. Adam lies on the ground, reaching a finger up to heaven, toward God. Their fingers do not quite touch, creating both a tiny gap and a deep chasm. God in the form of Jesus provides the bridge that brings God and humanity close enough to "touch" each other. Thus, reconciliation.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
sojourner said:
I'd like to jump in on the question, "Why did God have to send the Messiah through human flesh?"

There is an inherent concept of God as being transcendent -- wholly Other than us. Part of the work of reconciliation is that we must learn to become more like God. The overarching story of the Hb scriptures is God's seeking us out. By becoming one of us, God became immanent, or close to us -- not Other. God did this so that we, who live in a physical world, could experience God in that way -- through the senses, and understand the similarities, as well as the remaining differences, between God and humanity.

There is a wonderful picture, which I'm sure you've all seen. It's Michelangelo's depiction of the creation, on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. In the painting, God stretches out a finger from heaven, reaching for humanity. Adam lies on the ground, reaching a finger up to heaven, toward God. Their fingers do not quite touch, creating both a tiny gap and a deep chasm. God in the form of Jesus provides the bridge that brings God and humanity close enough to "touch" each other. Thus, reconciliation.
I'm not a moderator, but the purposes of this thread is for one person to answer questions. In order to stay on topic, we have to only allow Mark to answer questions and the rest of us can debate with him (support or defend). The best thing to do if you want to address questions is to start another thread with the question so this one can stay on topic.

It's just common courtesy. I did it this morning.

Have fun, Mark. :biglaugh:
 

Mark1615

Member
I have no problem with others answering questions. I expect it. Besides, it helps to have multiple perspectives. I don't mind. I'll answer all the questions anyway, even if someone else already did.
 

Mark1615

Member
sojourner said:
I'd like to jump in on the question, "Why did God have to send the Messiah through human flesh?"

There is an inherent concept of God as being transcendent -- wholly Other than us. Part of the work of reconciliation is that we must learn to become more like God. The overarching story of the Hb scriptures is God's seeking us out. By becoming one of us, God became immanent, or close to us -- not Other. God did this so that we, who live in a physical world, could experience God in that way -- through the senses, and understand the similarities, as well as the remaining differences, between God and humanity.

There is a wonderful picture, which I'm sure you've all seen. It's Michelangelo's depiction of the creation, on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. In the painting, God stretches out a finger from heaven, reaching for humanity. Adam lies on the ground, reaching a finger up to heaven, toward God. Their fingers do not quite touch, creating both a tiny gap and a deep chasm. God in the form of Jesus provides the bridge that brings God and humanity close enough to "touch" each other. Thus, reconciliation.
Very well said.
 

Mark1615

Member
darkwaldo said:
:tsk: I don't think you answered my question very well. I'm asking, how do you know Mary wasn't cheating on her husband? Some evidence besides quoted from the bible would be nice. Really, I don't believe there is any way to prove whether she was or not but, since there is nothing supporting your claim that Mary was a virgin, why believe in as strongly as you do?
People back then did not have the knowledge that we do now to explain the things that happen in the world. If the events that happened in the bible happened today, i'm sure they would be explained away somehow. People who talk to god, other than prayer, are thought to be insane, and illusionist can mimic some of the miracles. There is too little evidence and too many possiblities of exaggeration or lies.
True, I am not aware of any "scientific" proof that Mary was a virgin. But, I have to bring up the faith issue. As I mentioned in my very first response, I have experienced God in certain ways that can't be explained by nature or coincidence (I'd be more than happy to explain if you'd like). These occurances have given me faith in what the Bible says, thus giving me faith in the virgin account. That is why I believe in it so strongly.

Also, in regards to your last remarks, in the book of Exodus when Moses approaches Pharaoh and does certain miracles (i.e. turn staff into snake and ten plagues), the Pharaoh's magicians are able to copy Moses and produce many of the same miracles, with exception to killing all of the Egyptian's first born - the magicians weren't able to duplicate that (not that they'd want to). So even when others can explain away some miracles, they still have to explain the spiritual realm. So really, the first question is "Does God or god(s) exist?" That is the core question from which all other answers will be based.
 

Mark1615

Member
Time Spender,
I looked into your link about the Qu'ran (I think I spelled it right), and it is interesting. Though I would like to know the context in which many of those verses were used. Also, some of those same predictions/proofs are mentioned in the Bible, which would account for Islam and Christianitys' common roots. Thanks for that reference.:)
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Mark, Faith is you're only real argument on any of these questions... I still haven't found satisfaction in Halcyon's questions from the VERY begining of this thread... would you like me to post them again?

I'll drop the questions though if you'd like to tell me, "there is no real answer, i take everything upon faith"
 
Mark1615 said:
I already addressed this question, but I'll expound on my previous answer. John 8:58 says "Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'" A study of the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) will reveal the words of God when He said to Moses "I am who I am. Tell them (Egyptians) that I AM has sent you." Jesus was quoting God when He said that He was I am. Jesus would be guilty of blasphemy and breaking the Third Commandment (don't use God's name in vain). He would have broken the Law that He was teaching. Jesus was affirming that He was God manifest in the flesh. He is the Great "I AM" - the Eternal One who revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3:14).

See also John 1:1-4; 5:19-29!
Jesus was a man with special gifts/blessings. He cried, He was punished by people who rejected him, He was a man with a blessing. I find it hard to comprehend that God would cry, or God would be punished.

This is what Islam is against. God has 99 names in Islam. I will name 3:

All-Powerful
All-Knowing
All- Meriful

I think these 3 names are qualities that are accepted in Christiantiy. You do believe god is the most powerful, knows all, and can forgive who he wishes.

God is All-Powerful, why would he be punished by his creations for his creations?

Islam teaches oneness of God, he has no daughter, no sons, no fathers, no mothers. God is One. We also believe in Jesus Christ and we hold him in high respect just like Christianity. The difference is we see him as a prophet from God (with mircales just like many other prophets). God is One.
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
Buttons* said:
Mark, Faith is you're only real argument on any of these questions... I still haven't found satisfaction in Halcyon's questions from the VERY begining of this thread... would you like me to post them again?

I'll drop the questions though if you'd like to tell me, "there is no real answer, i take everything upon faith"
He has a point :jiggy:
 
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