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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Mark1615, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. muslimbrother

    muslimbrother Member

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    Thanks for noticing me lol, I found a friend
     
  2. GoldenDragon

    GoldenDragon Active Member

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    As a Christian even I have questions about my faith. I have one in mind right now (I kind of forgot the others,forgive me I have a short memory) but here goes:

    What is the REAL deal behind the loin cloth on Jesus on the Crucifix ,I've been through 12 years of Catholic school praying to the statue of the Crucifix and asked my teachers who would always say it was for decency,but I always wondered if there was something more to it cause at the age when the Crucifix was made alot of other human statues were sculpted in the more "natural" state...Is there something else behind the loin cloth or am I over thinking this?
     
  3. flysky

    flysky Member

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    Does any other religion believes in Jesus besides Christianity?


    ***************************************************************************************************
    http://askmuslims.com
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  4. angellous_evangellous

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    Only one person is anwering the questions on this thread.

    So, as my wife says to me daily,

    "SPEAK, GREAT ONE."

    (my wife corrected me)
     
  5. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Yeah, Mark is supposed to be answering all of these for you all... and i'm sure he'll get around to it.... )(
     
  6. GoldenDragon

    GoldenDragon Active Member

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    patience is a virtue....
     
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  7. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Because she was a virgin!:)
     
  8. angellous_evangellous

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    It's a virtue that I don't have! :help:
     
  9. angellous_evangellous

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    This is a debate thread, Mark. This response is entirely inappropriate. It's not fair to simply assert something. I'm sure that our friend knew that the Gospel tradition says that Mary was a virgin.

    You haven't shown why this assertion can be true by expounding on any premises that could help us logically deduce why Mary could not have had Jesus because of infidelity or anything else.

    Helpful exerpts from Saint Wikipedia:

    Debate
    "All forms of debate, whether consciously or not, make certain assumptions about argumentation theory."

    From argumentation theory:
    "Argumentation theory, or argumentation, is the science of effective civil debate or dialogue and the effective propagation thereof, using rules of inference and logic, as applied in the real world setting. Argumentation is concerned primarily with reaching conclusions through logical reasoning based on certain premises. Although including debate and negotiation which are concerned with reaching mutually acceptable conclusions, argumentation theory also encompasses the branch of social debate in which victory over an opponent is the primary goal. This science is often the means by which people protect their beliefs or self-interests in rational dialogue; in common parlance, arguing.

    As it relates to philosophy, argumentation is used with or without empirical evidence to establish a convincing conclusion about issues which are moral, scientific, epistemic, or of a nature too deep to be answerable by science alone. Argumentation theory employs the field of informal logic in constructing credible arguments and identifying faulty reasoning."
     
  10. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    The Old Testament (OT) wasn't changed...in any degree. What the New Testament (NT) did, namely through Jesus, was expound on and fulfill the Old Testament prophecies. The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the OT as He is in the NT. Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their back on Him. The Psalms of David often speak of God's mercy, poured out on sinners.

    He is also just as wrath-filled in the NT as He is in the Old. He killed a husband and wife in the Book of Acts, simply because they told one lie. Jesus warned that He was to be feared because He has the power to cast the body and soul into hell. The apostle Paul said that he persuaded men to come to the Savior because he knew the "terror of the Lord." Read the dreadful judgments of the NT's Book of Revelation. That will put the "fear of God" in you, which incidentally is "the beginning of wisdom."

    Perhaps the most fearful display of His wrath is seen in the cross of Jesus Christ. His fury so came upon the Messiah that it seems God enshrouded the face of Jesus in darkness so that creation couldn't gaze upon His unpeakable agony. Whether we like it or not, our God is a cosuming fire of holiness (Hebrews 12:29). He isn't going to change, sowe had better...before the Day of Judgment. If we repent, God, in His mercy, will forgive us and grant us eternal life in heaven with Him.

    I hope I answered your question.:eek:
     
  11. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    good, glad we have a solid definition for debate now... cause i was confuzzled for a while there... *phew!*

    How do we know Mary was a virgin outside of what the Bible says? If that had truly happened, and Joseph found out Mary was pregnant with another man or thing's baby, he would have had her stoned to death, as was custom in that period. (i may be wrong on this, but i do believe that a woman could be killed for adultery in those days....in jewish law)
     
  12. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Angellous,
    I already addressed the question about the virgin birth in a previous post...

    Besides, even if she did have an affair, it doesn't mean Jesus was born through human will.
     
  13. angellous_evangellous

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    E. Earle Ellis, Paul's Use of the Old Testament, published PhD dissertation from Edinburg, is an outstanding masterpiece on this topic. It revolutionized my understanding of the HB and NT relationships. It is a fairly short book, and a wonderful read. His many other books are excellent as well.
     
  14. time_spender

    time_spender Member

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    hi ,God Bless
    U know.In this world ,after my muslim brother and sisters, i love Christians.
    They are pious and i feel they are closer to us more than other religions.
    We have many cooperative properties in our holy religions and thats great.
    But there are some differences too! and thats normal.
    i want to talk about the "Jesus is God in flesh" and " Jesus died for our sins".
    It seems too much confusing.
    The problem i have with Christians is that they make Jesus too big. By doing this they forget the main goal.All the prophets are the same. each of them have amazing true stories about their birth.
    Moses(Pbuh) has been thrown on a basket and have been put in a river...the conditions were controled by Lord.he has been grown up in the family that his father was his biggest enemy.he has a snakey wand!! and a glowing hand!
    he strikes on the river and makes it in two part and...
    everything seems normal when u understand Gods power.
    Ibrahim(Pbuh) had a very nice life.
    The fire story and how he could escape the heat!
    The birds and how Lord made them become alive.
    the HAjir(his wife) story and how the zamzam water came out in the desert.
    and about how he made the Kabbah.and how he saw a dream and wanted to kill his child. and how Lord choosed him as a "khalil"(friend) and etc
    each miracle is a sign for the main goal...GOD
    Mohammad(Pbuh) was borned while his father died and his mother dies when he was near 6! his life was amazing too.how he didnt know how to read and write.How he marries a woman that is bigger than himself.
    how he predicts the eating termite and the remaining Allah. how he bears the hard conditions in "sheb" and how Allah told him that the kaffirs(perverts) want to kill him and helpt him to escape from makkah and make a muslim society in Madina.all of these seem like a miracle but sure if u understand God well,then u can know the meanings!
    Jesus(Pbuh) was born without a father and talked while he was a child.he made the dead come to life and made ills become well.he made a pigen with clay and made it fly.he talked with deads.he could say what ppl did in their houses and etc
    all was God's will and doesnt seem too much complicated to make the "God in flesh" and "died for sins" and etc tenets.
    if we understand God well,we will not have any problem with the miracles.
    i think Christians have been lost in the biggest miracle (birth without a dad) ( think that all the miracles are the same.all of them have a same aim and goal)
    Christians have been confused when they have seen the unusual birth.
    They have misunderstood the goal of this birth.And this is dangerous.because it will harm the main goal. Making the assumtions that Jesus has been sent down to forgive ppl sins and is God in flesh is very very dangerous in our belief.
    this is a serious part. and sure God knew that this wil happen and some people will look at the Christ's birth as an "super-miracle" and loose the goal. This is another big EXAM for the humanity history.
    Miracles are only to show that someone is a prophet or not! and thats the best way that Lord has choosen. a logical and acceptable sign.
    We should not get stopped in the Miracles.FOr those who believe in prophets its obvious that Miracles are a tool not a goal.
    The christians have walked in Gods path correctly and they have done good.but they have only one problem. one of the signs in the path(Christ's birth) has been shocking.
    for me ,as a muslim, birth of Jesus(May God make his ranking high) is a wonderful sign.
    When i see the miracle my faith becomes stronger and i say "There is only one God" louder!! Its intresting to know (i,m sure u know!) that muslims MUST believe in Jesus(Pbuh) because we have a verse that says" you will not enter paradise until u believe in Jesus(Pbuh)" and thats very cool. I Love this verse because it has a big meaning:
    U will not enter paradise until u accept Jesus as a sign of God and agree with him.
    Jesus is one of the biggest signs "ayyat" for our muslims(especially Shia's).
    He is the saviour of us too. He is the holy prophet that will come back soon and save the world but not single.he will have a great man with him. a man that believe in Jesus too and will do many jobs for him.Mahdi(AS). and thats a wonderful day.Oh Lord,i wish we survive till then and see the beautiful face of Jesus(Pbuh) and MAhdi(AS)
    For me Jeus(Pbuh) is the same as the other prophets.
    and the miracles of the prophets is a sign to understand the truth not to add to the truth!
    I can call myself a Christian while i believe in Jesus(Pbuh) as prophet that Lord sent sometime to make his religion alive. I love jesus and i wish he will intermediates for me in the other World,InshALlah,if God wants.
    I think my question is clear now!
    sorry for the english Mistakes
    and May lord bless Christian brothers and sisters.
    Ameen
    Peace and wasalam
    ~mohammad
     
  15. angellous_evangellous

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    Three points:

    1) You still answered a direct question with a mere assertion, which is not appropriate in a debate
    2) The thread is 12 pages long. A link would be great to the previous post. I searched for a couple of pages and didn't see anything that answered the question.
    3) Why did you write this? "Besides, even if she did have an affair, it doesn't mean Jesus was born through human will." It looks like you're contradicting yourself. Either she was a virgin or she wasn't. The issue of human will is not being addressed, but Mary's virignity.
     
  16. angellous_evangellous

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    God bless you, too.

    Please use paragraphs. My eyes hurt just looking at your post.:help:
     
  17. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    I already addressed this question, but I'll expound on my previous answer. John 8:58 says "Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'" A study of the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) will reveal the words of God when He said to Moses "I am who I am. Tell them (Egyptians) that I AM has sent you." Jesus was quoting God when He said that He was I am. Jesus would be guilty of blasphemy and breaking the Third Commandment (don't use God's name in vain). He would have broken the Law that He was teaching. Jesus was affirming that He was God manifest in the flesh. He is the Great "I AM" - the Eternal One who revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3:14).

    If I give you a small slice of cheese from a large block (the taste being constant throughout the whole block), and you spit out the cheese saying you hate the taste, then you reject the whole block. Jesus was manifest in human form. If the Jews rejected Him, they rejected the Father also - he who is of God hears God's words. John later stated in his epistle, "Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:23).

    See also John 1:1-4; 5:19-29!
     
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  18. angellous_evangellous

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    Now this is cheesy :eek:. If you're a preacher, pleeeaaaassseee don't say this from the pulpit. I'll never look at cheese the same way again.

    :biglaugh:

    EDIT: I actually had an experience just like this recently with a loaf of cheese. I bought some roses, wine and cheese to have a romanric evening with my wife. The first bite tasted like old musty leather, so I spit it out. I drank some wine to cleanse my palet. Like a pathetic loser, I thought that the rest of the cheese would be better, so I cut it up and romantically served it to my wife.

    It ruined the entire evening.:mad:
     
  19. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    You are right, and for that I apologize. My answer to this is found on page 5, last post, second paragraph (sorry, I don't know how to do links).

    I don't know what else to say on that subject, other than to bring in the faith issue. I don't expect anyone to believe me, even if I did have proof. But I have experiencial proof that God exists and what He says is true. Sorry.
     
  20. angellous_evangellous

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    Thanks very much for the post reference.

    One must have faith to believe these things; one can do no better than to admit it. There is no need to apologize for having faith and experiential knowledge of God. We simply need to be honest about the kind of knowledge that we have: knowledge that comes by faith and not by reason. We can confess with Paul:

    Romans 1
    16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,[d] as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

    The righteous ones live by faith, not by proofs.
     
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