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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Mark1615, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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  2. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    Good job on the duplication, but some peoples question remain to be answered
     
  3. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    Mark,

    Was Mary from the line of David as well? I heard she was....Luke 3 describes Joseph's line to David I think. What about Mary's lineage?
     
  4. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Again, I like to answer the questions in order - to give everyone equal time.
     
  5. angellous_evangellous

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    What is the definition of arrogance?
     
  6. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Often I hear people say, "It's all in God's plan," "This was not in God's plan" "God has a special plan for everyone, and it doesnt include certian things" "We can't know God's plan, but we can know God and what he wants for our lives through the scriptures"... ***?

    Do you think you know God's plan? If so, would you like to share it with us?

    Do you believe that demons cause all bad things to happen?

    Couldn't an almighty God simply wish away Satan, blood spilled or not?

    If God is omnipresent, is he in your ears?

    .... i should sleep....
     
  7. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Luke 3:23-31 says, "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli...Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David."

    Technically, Jesus was not a blood descendent of Joseph, because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. But His human father was Joseph - a descendent of David.
     
  8. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    okay, wait, you're picking and choosing... it blatantly says in that scripture that Yeshua was THE SON of Joseph! Maybe he was filled with the holy spirit, but to say that the holy spirit ****ed Mary and still have Joseph be the father is absurd!

    The Gospel of Philip:
    Mary Conceiving-
    "Some said Mary became pregnant by the holy spirit. They are wrong and do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever get pregnant by a woman?"
    My Father-
    "The master [would] not have said, 'my [father who is] in heaven' if [he] did not also have another father. He would have simply said, '[My father].'"
     
  9. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Flavius Josephus was a historian who lived from 37 A.D. to about 100 A.D. He was a member of the priestly aristocracy of the Jews. Josephus mentions Jesus in Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 (this paragraph is so phenomenal, that scholars now debate the authenticity of some of the more “favorable” portions of this text):

    “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

    Cornelius Tactitus (55-117 AD) is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome:

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45). This account seems to detail the time Jesus died:
    [​IMG]"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
    [/font]​
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins:
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][​IMG]"Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles."
    [/font]​
    For more examples visit www.myfortress.org/historians

    [/font]

    [/font]
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
    [/font]​
    [/font]
     
  10. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Flavius Josephus was a historian who lived from 37 A.D. to about 100 A.D. He was a member of the priestly aristocracy of the Jews. Josephus mentions Jesus in Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 (this paragraph is so phenomenal, that scholars now debate the authenticity of some of the more “favorable” portions of this text):

    “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”


    Cornelius Tactitus (55-117 AD) is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome:

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."


    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/font] ​
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45). This account seems to detail the time Jesus died:



    [​IMG]"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."


    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

    [/font]​
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins:



    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][​IMG]"Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles."

    [/font]
    For more examples visit www.myfortress.org/historians




    [/font]



    [/font]
    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

    [/font]


    [/font]
     
  11. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Buttons,
    it is hard for us to understand that a person can be from two different paternal lineages. But this is God we are talking about. The Holy Spirit caused Mary to become pregnant. But Jesus' human father was Joseph. His heavenly father was God.
     
  12. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Mike, it is true that there are many different versions of the Bible. There are versions in Chinese for the Chinese. There are versions in Russian for the Russian people. There are actually thousands of versions of the Bible - some are in modern languages, some in foreign languages, and some are in old English. Few, in the printing age, can claim that they don't gave access to the Scriptures in their own language. However, each translation is based on the original biblical texts.

    In 1889 a schoolteacher told a ten-year-old boy, "You will never amount to very much." That boy was Albert Einstein. In 1954 a music manager told a young singer, "You ought to go back to driving a truck." That singer was Elvis Presley. In 1962 a record company told group of singers, "We don't like you sound. Groups with guitars are definitely on their way out." They said that to the Beatles. Man is prone to make mistakes. Those who reject the Bible should take the time to look at the evidence before they come to a verdict.

    If just 10 people today were picked who were from the same place, born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made about the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible stands alone. It was written over a period of 1600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony. They wrote in dungeons, in temples, on beaches, and on hillsides, during peacetime and during war. Yet their words sound like they came from the same source. So even though 10 people today couldn't write on one controversial subject and agree, God picked 40 different people to write the Bible - and it stands the test of time.

    The invention of the printing press in 1450 made it possible to print books in large quantities. The first book printed was the Bible. Since then, the Bible has been read by more people and printed more times than any other book in history. By 1930, over on billion Bibles had been distributed by Bible societies around the world. By 1977, Bible societies alone were printing over 200 million Bibles each year, and this number doesn't include the many other Bible publishers. No one who is interested in knowing the truth can ignore such an important book.

    The Bible has been translated into over 1400 languages. No other book even comes close.

    In ancient times, books were copied by hand onto manuscripts which were made from parchment and would decay over time. Ancient books are available today only because someone made copies of the originals to preserve them. For example, the original writings of Julius Caesar are no longer around. We know what he wrote only by the copies we have. Only 10 copies still exist, and they were made 1000 years after he died. Only 600 copies of Homer's The Iliad exist, made 1300 years after the originals were written. No other book has as many copies of the ancient manuscripts as the Bible. In fact, there are over 24,000 copies of New Testament manuscripts, some written within 35 years of the writer's death.
    Compiled by Justin and Jordan Drake​

    Hope I didn't go off on too much of a tangent.
     
  13. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Mike,
    What is the thread of continuity that runs through the Bible - the consistent theme from the Old Testament through the New Testament?

    The Old Testament was God's promise that He would destroy death. The New Testament tells how He did it. I think that any idea of someone being able to defeat death is very relevant, regardless of your culture. And don't forget...the Bible was written by men coming from three different continents and wrote in three different languages.
     
  14. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    I agree. I could write an in-depth comment to this...but then I would be found guilty of "proselytizing.":tsk:
     
  15. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    To the first part of your question...woooo. This may take a while. No other book is questioned or maligned like the Bible. Critics looking for the flyspeck in the masterpiece allege that there was a long span between the time the events in the New Testament occurred and when they were recorded. They claim another gap exists archaeologically between the earliest copies made and the autographs of the New Testament. In reality, the alleged spaces and so-called gaps exist only in the minds of the critics.

    Aristotle's Ode to Poetics was written between 384 and 322 BC. The earliest copy of this work is dated AD 1100, and there are only 49 extant manuscripts. The gap between the original writing and the earliest copy is 1400 years. There are only seven extant manuscripts of Plato's Tetralogies, written 427-347 BC. The earliest copy is AD 900 - a gap of over 1200 years. What about the New Testament? Jesus was crucified in AD 30. The New Testament was written between AD 48 and 95. The oldest manuscripts date to the last quartar of the first century, and the second oldest AD 125. This gives us a narrow gap of 35 to 40 years from the originals written by the apostles.

    From the early centuries, we have some 5300 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Altogether, including Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic, we have a whopping 24,633 texts of the ancient New Testament to confirm the wording of the Scriptures. So the bottom line is, there was no great period between the events of the New Testament and the New Testament writings. Nor is there a great time lapse between the original writings and the oldest copies. With the great body of manuscript evidence, it can be proved, beyond a doubt, that the New Testament says exactly the same things today as it originally did nearly 2000 years ago.

    Critics also charge that there are no ancient writings about Jesus outside the New Testament. Writings confiriming His birth, ministry, death and resurrection include Josephus, the Babylonian Talmud, Pliny the Younger's letter to the Emperor Trajan, the Annals of Tacitus, Maria Bar Serapion, and Suetonius' Life of Claudius and Life of Nero. Another point of contention arises when Bible critics have knowingly of unkowingly misled people by implying that Old and New Testament books were either excluded from or added into the canon of Scripture at the great ecumenical councils of AD 336, 382, 397, and 419. In fact, one result of these gatherings was to confirm the Church's belief that the books already in the Bible were divinely inspired. Therefore, the Church, at these meetings, neither added to nor took away from the books of the Bible. At that time, the 39 Old Testament books had already been accepted, and the New Testament, as it was written, simply grew up with the ancient Church. Each document, being accepted as it was penned in the first century, was then passed on to Christians of the next century. So, this foolishness about the Roman Emperor Constantine dropping books from the Bible is simply uneducated rumor.

    Prophecies from the Old and New Testament that have been fulfilled also add credibility to the Bible. The Scriptures predicted the rise and fall of great empires like Greece and Rome (Daniel 2:39, 40), and foretold the destruction of cities like Tyre and Sidon (Isaiah 23). Tyre's demise is recorded by ancient historians, waho tell how Alexander the Great lay siege to the city for seven months. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had failed in a 13-year attempt to capture the seacoast city and completely destroy its inhabitants. During the siege of 573 BC, much of the population of Tyre moved to its new island home approximately half a mile from the land city. Here it remained surrounded by walls as high as 150 feet until judgment fell in 332 BC with the arrival of Alexander the Great. In the 7 month siege, he fulfilled the remainder of the prophecies (Zechariah 9:4; Ezekiel 26:12) concerning the city at sea by completely destroying Tyre, killing 8000 of its inhabitants and selling 30,000 of its population into slavery. To reach the island, he scraped up the dust and rubble of the old land city of Tyre, just like the Bible predicted, and cast them into the sea, building a 200-foot-wide causeway out to the island.

    Alexander's death and the murder of his two sons was also foretold in the Scripture. Another startling prophecy was Jesus' detailed prediction of Jerusalem's destruction, and the further spreading of the Jewish diaspora throughout the world, which is recorded in Luke 21, in AD 70, not only was Jerusalem destroyed by Titus, the future emperor of Rome, but another prediction of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:1-2 came to pass - the complete destruction of the temple of God.

    In the Book of Daniel, the Bible prophesied the coming of the one and only Jewish Messiah prior to the temple's demise. The Old Testament prophets declared He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12-13), die by crucifixion (Psalm 22), and be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9). There was only one person who fits all of the messianic prophecies of the Old Testament who lived before AD 70: Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Mary.

    To the second part of your question: everything we need to know about God and salvation is contained in the Bible. What else is there?
    Yes, the Bible is an amazing book.
     
  16. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Because Jesus is God. If a person denies Christ, then they deny God. Jesus is the One who said that He is the only way to the Father. For Christians to say that there are other ways to find peace with God is to bear false testimony.

    In one sweeping statement, Jesus discards all other religions as a means of finding forgiveness of sins. This agrees with other Scriptures: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12), and "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).
     
  17. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    To the first part of your question...People often accuse God of being unjust, because they assume that everyone will receive the same punishment in hell. God's judgment, however, will be according to righteousness (Acts 17:31). Mark 6:11 shows that there will be degrees of punishment.
     
  18. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Yeshua never explained that...
    You just have no better reason than "the Bible says so" in this case, and truthfully, that's all you have. No proof is needed in faith....
     
  19. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    To compare a musician with God....
    I mentioned this analogy already, but I think it applies here too. A father buys a TV for his children for their enjoyment and pleasure. But one day when he comes home from work, he is saddened to see that his kids didn't come running to his side as they usually do - they are too busy watching television. What was meant for the children's pleasure has become an object of affection replacing their father. God wants our affection and enjoys our pleasure - that is why we were created (Revelation 4:11).
     
  20. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    You might be referring to "circular reasoning." That's like saying you can't prove that the President lives in the White House by looking into the White House. It is looking into the White House that will provide the necessary proof. The fulfilled prophecies, the amazing cosistency, and the many scientific statements of the Bible prove it to be the Word of God. They provide evidence that it is supernatural in origin.

    See also my other entries about the reliability of the Bible.
     
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