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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Mark1615, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    So i guess you ran from my question?
     
  2. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    Because as we see in the OT we sacrificed animals to be forgiven for our sins. Something must die in place of our sin. This is what free's us from guilt. Now guilt it what keeps us from G-d, we hide when we feel guilt. (Adam and Eve felt naked and ashamed). If we repent we free ourselfs from the guilt therefore can be closer to G-d.

    Jesus's death was the ultimate sacrifice, his death was our forgivness. So we come to Christ and ask for forgivness and free ourselfs from the guilt. Now if you don't accept Christ as your sacrifice you still carry the guilt. Because nothing has died in place of your sins, so you can't get close to G-d without him.

    Hope this helps...
     
  3. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Interesting. Very interesting. A bit off topic, but I don't mind. All the more questions for me to ponder, right? BTW, I'll try to go in order of the questions asked (hopefully).)(
     
  4. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Some Bible scholars would say that these people are just as valid as those in the Scriptures. But I really don't know why their works weren't chosen, other than to say that the early groups who canonized the Bible deemed them "uninspired" by God. I don't know that much on that subject, but I can certainly find out! Sorry.
     
  5. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    It depends on your definition of "Christian." Today, many people would consider themselves to be Christian. But their views of being a Christian means going to a building every Sunday, or doing good works.

    There is more to being a Christian.

    To answer your question, I'll probably get into trouble. But so be it. I have great respect for LDS'. I have had a few friends who belonged to the Church, but I have many objections to the beliefs - many of which have already been addressed. The number one concern is the idea that Jesus is not God, though LDS does deem Him nearly or as equal to God. Another concern is the prophet Joseph Smith. The president or prophet of the Church is thought to be the sole spokeman and revelator of God. Joseph Smith was the initial prophet, but each successive president holds that position. Through him God's will can be made known to the church. All revelations are made scripture and no Mormon can attain godhood without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet. The Mormon scriptures state that Latter-day Saints "shalt give heed unto all his [the prophet's] words and commandments...For his word ye shall receive as if from mine [God's] own mouth" (Doctrine and Covenants 21:4-5).

    Old and New Testament prophets were God's spokemen. Their words were always consistent with the Bible and pointed to God's Son, Jesus Christ. A test of genuineness for prophets was that any prediction they proclaimed would come true (Deut. 18:20-22). For example, Joseph Smith predicted that the temple of the church would be built in Independence, Mo., within his lifetime (Doctine and Covenants 84:2-5). No temple has yet been built there. New Testament prophets spoke, along with teachers, pastors, and evangelists, in evangelizing with and edifying the church (Eph. 4:11-13).

    The Mormon church claims to be the only true church. In God's supposed revelation to Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ told him "to join no other church for they were all wrong...their creeds were an abomination ...those professors [members] were all corrupt "(The Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History 1:19). Mormons teach that after the New Testament all churches became heretical and no true saints existed until the Church of the Latter-day Saints was organized, hence their name. Non-Mormons are thus called Gentiles. The new revelations given to Smith, the institution of the prophet and apostles in the church, the restoration of the divine priesthoods, and the temple ceremonies make the church authentic. True and full salvation or exaltation is found only in the LDS Church.

    The true church of Jesus Christ has had an ongoing presence and witness in the world since Pentecost. Jesus Christ promised that His church, true baptized and regenerate believers, would not fail (Matt. 16:17-18). The marks of a true church include faithfulness to the teaching of the first apostles (Acts 2:42), not the creation of new doctrines.

    Mormons accept four books as scripture and the word of God. The King James Version of the Bible is one of them, but only as far as it is translated correctly seemingly allowing for possible questions about its authority. Joseph Smith made over 600 corrections to its text. Other standard works are the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. The Bible is missing plain and precious parts according to the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 13:26) which the other three volumes complete. The Book of Mormon has the fullness of the gospel and tells the story of a supposed migration of Israelites in 600 BC to the American continent. These Israelites subsequently lapsed into apostasy although their story was preserved on golden plates written in Reformed Egyptian. Joseph Smith, it is said, translated the plates by the gift and power of God (Doctrine and Covenants 135:3). Reformed Egyptian does not exist as a language. The golden plates were returned to the angel Moroni after they were transcribed and Moroni returned them to heaven. The Book of Mormon does not contain explicit Mormon doctrine. Doctrine and Covenants contains the revelations of the Mormon prophets 138 in number along with two declarations. Here most of Mormon doctrine can be found including the priesthood, baptism for the dead, godhood, and polygamy. The Pearl of Great Price contains Smith's religious history, the Articles of Faith, the Book of Abraham, and the Book of Moses.

    The Bible explicitly warns against adding to or detracting from its teaching (Rev. 22:18; Deut. 4:2). The New Testament contains the inspired and totally accurate witness of contemporary disciples and followers of Jesus. It alone claims to be fully inspired of God and usable for the establishment of doctrine (2 Tim. 3:15-17; 2 Pet. 1:19-21).

    I could go on, but I think you know my stance now.
     
  6. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    I do *smiles*
     
  7. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Mark, try answering the rest of Halcyon's questions. I'd like to see what you can come up with.
     
  8. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Simply, to do that which Christ does. But more specifically, one needs to recognize Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Why? Because we have sinned - that is, transgressing the Ten Commandments, or the Law of God. Once you realize that you will go to hell without Christ's compassion, you cling to the blood-stained cross. Once you do that, you are saved from hell.

    But many people claim to have done that, but don't do good works. Why? The apostle Paul says to be rich in good works. Good works is a by-product of salvation. We are not saved by works, but by faith. If it were possible to save ourselves by doing good, then there would be no need for Christ's death and resurrection.

    A Christian is doing that which is prescribed in the Bible. Nothing more and nothing less.
     
  9. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    I believe in my friend's description of his great grandfather even though they never met, and has never seen a picture of him. People who have seen him relate their experiences to others.

    Paul was inspired by God to write the things he did. When you write a letter, do you write the letter, or does the pen? Obviously, you do; the pen is merely the instrument you use. God used men as instruments to write His letter to humanity. They ranged from kings to common fishermen, but the 66 books of the Bible were all given by inspiration of God. Proof that this Book is supernatural can be seen with a quick study of its prophecies.

    The Bible doesn't attempt to defend its inspiration. But here is an intersting thing: Genesis opens with the words "God said" nine times in the first chapter. The statement "Thus says the Lord" appears 23 times in the last Old Testament book, Malachi. So you have "God says" from Genesis to Malachi. "The Lord spoke" appears 560 times in the first five books of the Bible and at least 3800 times in the whole Old Testament. Isaiah claims at least 40 times that his message came directly from the Lord; Ezekiel, 60 times; and Jeremiah, 100 times.

    There are about 3856 verses directly or indirectly concerned with the prophecy in Scripture. God's challenge to the world is "Prove Me now...I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass. Mormons, Buddhists, and Muslims have their own sacred writings, but the element of proven prophecy is absent in them. The destruction of Tyre, the invasion of Jerusalem, the fall of Babylon and Rome - each even was accurately predicted in the Bible and later fulfilled to the smallest detail.
     
  10. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    You might have to be more specific, but the first seemingly contradictory statement that some people point out is in Matthew 1 when it gives the geneology of Jesus. Matthew gives the paternal geneology of the Messiah (through His legal father), and Luke (3:23) gives His maternal geneology (through His mother).

    In Matt. 20-23 some say that Mary was not a "virgin" but merely a "young maiden." Isaiah 7:14 says that God Himself will give a "sign." A young maiden becoming pregnant is not a sign from God, but an everyday occurance. A virgin conceiving is a supernatural sign.

    Matt. 5:38 says, "You have heard that it has been said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth...'" This verse is so often misquoted. Many believe it is giving a license to take matters into our own hands and render evil for evil. In reality, it is referring to civil law concerning restitution. If someone steals you ox, he is to restore the ox. If someone steals and wrecks your car, he is to buy you another one...a car for a car, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The spirit of what Jesus is saying here is radically different from the "sue the shirt off the back of your neighbor" society in which we live.

    This may be what you are refering to: contradictions in the resurrection accounts. Did Christ appear first to the women or His disciples? Both Matthew and Mark list women as the first to see the resurrected Christ. Mark says, "He appeared first to Mary Magdalene" (16:9). But Paul lists Peter (Cephas) as the first one to see Christ after His resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:5). Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene, then to the other women and then to Peter. Paul was not giving a complete list, but only the important one for his purpose. Since only men's testimony was considered legal or official in the first century, it is understandable that the apostle would not list the women as witnesses in his defense of the resurrection here. A list of Christ's appearances: 1)Mary (John 20:10-18); 2) Mary and women (Matt. 28:1-10); 3) Peter (1 Corinth. 15:5); 4) Two disciples (Luke 24:13-35); 5) Ten apostles (Luke 24:36-49; John 20:19-23); 6) Eleven apostles (John 20:24-31); 7) Seven apostles (John 21); 8) All apostles (Matt. 28:16-20; Mark 16:14-18); 9) 500 brethren (1 Corinth. 15:6); 10) James (1 Corinth. 15:7); 11) All apostles (Acts 1:4-8); 12) Paul (Acts 9:1-9; 1 Corinth. 15:8).

    The four Gospels give four differing accounts as to what was written on the sign that hung on the cross. Matthew said, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" (27:37). However, Mark contradicts that with "The King of the Jews" (15:26). Luke says something different: "This is the King of the Jews" (23:38), and John maintains that the sign said "Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews" (19:19). Those who trust God have no problem harmonizing the Gospels. There is no contradiction if the sign simply said, "This is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews." The godly base their confidence on two truths: 1) "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); and 2) an elementary rule of Scripture is that God has deliberately included seeming contradictions in His Word to "snare" the proud. He has "hidden" things from the "wise and prudent" and "revealed them to babes" (Luke 10:21), purposely choosing foolish things to confound the wise (1 Corinth. 1:27).

    How many angels were at the tomb - one or two? The question has arisen simply because Matthew and Mark mention one angel, whereas Luke and John refer to two. There is no conflict if there were two angels but Matthew and Mark quote the one who was a spokesperson.

    It is interesting to note that the seeming contradictions in the four Gospels attest to the fact that there was no corroboration between the writers.
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Hey, mark, where are you from in Oregon? I lived most of my life in that state.
     
  12. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    The great city of Portland right now, but mostly in Sherwood.
     
  13. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    OH, nevermind. I'm mostly southern oregon, myself. Although my parents are in the process of moving to portland-ish, probably beaverton.
     
  14. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    The Bible tells us: "As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself also am a man" (Acts 10:25,26). Peter refused worship in light of the Law that said, "You shall worship the Lord you God, and Him only you shall serve." In Revelation 19:10, when the apostle John saw an angel, he said, "I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "See you do it not: I am your fellow-servant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God." Even the angel of the Lord refused to be worshipped.

    However, here are many more verses showing that Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped, simply because he was God "manifest in the flesh": "While he spoke these things to them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, "My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay your hand upon her, and she shall live" (Matt. 9:18); "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, "Of a truth you are the Son of God" (Matt. 14:33); "Then she came and worshipped him, saying, "Lord, help me" (Matt. 15:25); "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, 'All hail.' And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him" (Matt. 28:9); "When they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted" (Matt. 28:17). He received their worship because He was "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15) - "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (1 Timothy 3:16, emphasis added).
     
  15. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    I have a question, why whould g-d send to ETERNAL damnation to those who do not believe in him or his son, but are virtueous in every other way. Why would g-d do that? Why would he take personal anger at not being acknowledged? After all many artists play not for recognition, but for the art itself. Why wouldn't g-d then protect man for the act of doing it? After all the man does the greatest mitzot of all, acting just and kind to his fellow man. Why would g-d do that? Why would g-d send ghandiji or other non christian heroes to hell? Like pericles? or Voltaire, who was a lone voice of tolerance in an age of biogotry and hatred? After all all three men lived virtueous lives, and acted kind and did thier best to keep g-ds creation in its best possible condition. Now i know you will say that as a jew, it is in my own beliefs to honor g-d. But g-d is above that, g-d in compairson to us is like a human and ameoba. Of course it is good to honor g-d, but it is not neccasary for salvation, after all as the most high supreme being, he is above childish human emotions such as pride. I see however why i as a jew must honor g-d, we are the missionary race, our laws have influenced and made more just the laws of the world. We act as servants to hashem, to bring light to the world so it is our obligation to acknowledge hashem (g-d) as our master. But the other races do not have to, in this they are lucky, after all they are not under the same oath as the children of israel. They are not the chosen people, and this is a good thing, for it is easier for them to go to heaven. Sorry for the long question/statement, hunger makes me ramble :bounce
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    All people have sinned, wether it be lying, stealing, etc. God dosnt just send people to hell for ignoring him, but for their sin. It was for peoples sin that Christ was crucified, so either Christ has paid for your sin or you pay for it yourself. Quite simply people are not virtueous or perfect "in every other way".
     
  17. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    I believe that g-d takes all our actions as an over all whole, he knows we are human
     
  18. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    After all my deaf friend steve, he sets reasonable standards for HIS OWN creations
     
  19. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Again, you have to be specific. I defer to your 3rd(?) question.
     
  20. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

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    Imagine a father who buys his children a television set as a gift. The TV is for their enjoyment and pleasure. But one day when the father comes home from work, he is saddened that his children don't come running to his side like they usually do - they are too busy watching TV. What was meant for his children's enjoyment has become an object of their affection.

    God demands our full allegiance to Him. He does not like it when we replace Him with other things such as a graven idol or even television.
     
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