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Ask about Jehovah's Witnesses

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by WitnessofJah, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Is that a/the question HelpMe?

    Hebrews 1 : The Son Superior to Angels

    I thought you were trying to prove Jesus was an angel.... or was it In heaven: angel only. On Earth: human only. Back in heaven: angel only, again. The creature called Michael entirely ceased to exist, and the creature called Jesus (while here on Earth) began to exist, then, at death, he ceased to exist also. Then a creature identical to the original Michael began to exist again. :confused:

    Maybe you can ask another question....
     
  2. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Don't worry Carrdero, I will be replying...I will make sure of it. :) Replying on weekdays is kind of difficult for me since I work a full-time job during the day and I do other things during the evenings - which does'nt leave much time for anything else. I really do apologize for the delay.

    Thanks.
     
  3. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    you seem to of confused yourself.why can't someone be an angel(MESSENGER) on earth?john the baptist is prophesied as an 'angel', this isn't to say he previously existed as a spiritual creature, but it is to say one on earth can be a messenger.

    what do you mean by angel only?(messenger only?)that honestly doesn't make sense, though perhaps i am wrong in assuming you knew the meaning of the word 'angel'.
    why human only?did i say that, no.why not angel(assuming you mean spirit messenger) only in heaven again?do you think theres a physical being or a spiritual one?who said michael entirely(or at all) ceased to exist?why would you say jesus began to exist when his life on earth started if you know i don't believe that, nor did i say it.i also failed to say he ceased to exist after he died.

    you're little intentional idiocy involved saying there were two people(therefor all the starts and stopping to exist), you know i believe it is the one person michael, whom neither stopped to exist at all or started to exist beyond once.
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    hI there , i hope you dont mind me butting in on your thread, i would just like you to know that i have been following this thread with interest, i am one of Jehovahs witnesses, who has been rather low of late , i have not been to the kingdom hall of late, but after looking at this thread i now realize that Jehovahs people have most certainly got Gods holy spirit , i will now resume my visits to the kingdom hall as i think that jehovah God is working though and revealing his spirit though this organization
     
  5. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Hi may,
    Welcome to Religious Forums.
     
  6. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    WitnessofJah,

    Check your private messages.
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Huh.... now you've stooped to calling me names..... you're a great example for the JW's. :eek:

    I'll wait for Witness to return.... I am trying to understand your faith.... at least he can present it without such plebeian nonesense.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    you misrepresented my stance on purpose so as to belittle me.i am not an example for the witnesses.

    when abrahams name was changed, did he cease to exist?

    when people go to heaven, do they cease to exist?
     
  9. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    you misrepresented my stance on purpose so as to belittle me.which does not excuse me stooping below your level, i was wrong.i am not an example for the witnesses as i am not one of them.

    -Abraham’s original name, for example, was Avram, representing his status as "Av Aram," or the father of Aram, his native country. His name was changed to Avraham to represent his newly gained status as "Av Hamon goyim," or father of a multitude of nations.-

    when abraham changed names(Ge17:5/1ch1:27/ne9:7), did he cease to exist an entirely different person start to exist in his place?

    again it is purely irrational to say that the change of names or substance(spirit/flesh) indicates a different person being.and i never claimed that, yet you asserted it.you know how the nephilim came to be?from 'angels' taking human form.

    when people go to heaven, do they cease to exist?when 'angels' took human form to mate with females, did they cease to exist only to be replaced by an entirely different being?of course not, to assert such is childish.
     
  10. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    I was having a conversation with a friend and former work-mate some while back about the Bible and how it was written and I happened on to something that might be considered germane to this discussion. This was originally much, much longer but I have shortened it considerably, hopefully it will still tie together and make sense:

    “Inspired of God” translates the Greek phrase the·o´pneu·stos, which literally means “God-breathed.” By ‘breathing’ on faithful men, God caused his spirit, or active force, to become operative upon them and directed what he wanted recorded, for, as it is written, “prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” (2 Peter 1:21) This unseen holy spirit of God is his symbolic “finger.” Therefore, when men saw Moses perform supernatural feats they exclaimed: “It is the finger of God!” (Exodus 8:18, 19) Later in a similar display of divine power “God’s finger” began the writing of the Bible by carving out the Ten Commandments on stone tablets. (Exodus 31:18; Deut. 9:10) "The Word" or "Logos", one of Jesus’ many names or titles, also served a role in conveying most but not all the information we now find in the Bible but was not its author. Compare Jesus’ words at:

    Matthew 12:22, 28: “Then they brought him a demon-possessed man, blind and dumb; and he cured him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. . . . But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”

    The parallel account is found at Luke 11:20: “But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”

    Several scriptures and much explanation in support of my statement that Jesus is not the Bible’s author are left out for the sake of brevity and because of being off subject. Most all of this is arrived at by running out the scripture cross-references on the keywords and in both directions and using several study Bibles and Bible study software. Back to the original material:

    Matthew 12:22, 28 and Luke 11:20 are different accounts of the same event. The inspired record of Jesus words reveals that he expelled demons by using "the finger of God". This is not the first time that this term is used in the Bible. This is not the first time that Jehovah empowered one of his servants with "his finger". In the same way that Jehovah bestowed upon and empowered Moses to use, or wield, "the finger of God", so it was with Jesus. Just as God commanded Moses to do and say certain things, so was Jesus.

    The following scriptures provide considerable detail of what transpired between Jehovah and Moses. Moses was sent to deliver the Israelites from slavery to Egypt. Jesus was sent to deliver the world from slavery to Adamic death. How Jehovah dealt with Moses tells us much about how Jehovah dealt with Jesus and other faithful men also. Jesus words above, “the finger of God”, were no mere coincidence. Moses and his actions, as directed by Jehovah, directly foreshadowed Jesus and his actions, as directed by Jehovah. These scriptures clearly show that Moses was not the author of his actions or words, and neither was Jesus, even though at times the scriptures make it seem as though Moses and Jesus are the source or “the author” of what they did and said.

    Exodus 3:2, 11-22 says: 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. . . . 11 However, Moses said to the [true] God {actually to the angel standing in for God as his personal representative}: “Who am I that I should go to Phar´aoh and that I have to bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 To this he said: “Because I {Jehovah as represented by and speaking through this angel} shall prove to be with you, and this is the sign for you that it is I who have sent you: After you have brought the people out of Egypt, YOU people will serve the [true] God on this mountain.”

    13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel {bold blue = Jehovah’s commands}, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation. 16 You go, and you must gather the older men of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers has appeared to me, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying: “I will without fail give attention to YOU and to what is being done to YOU in Egypt. . . .

    18 “And they will certainly listen to your voice, and you must come, you and the older men of Israel, to the king of Egypt, and YOU men must say to him, ‘Jehovah the God of the Hebrews has come in touch with us, and now we want to go, please, a journey of three days into the wilderness, and we want to sacrifice to Jehovah our God.’ 19 And I, even I, well know that the king of Egypt will not give YOU permission to go except by a strong hand. 20 And I shall have to stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonderful acts that I{Jehovah acting through the angel and through Moses}shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will send YOU out. . . .



    Continues below.

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  11. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Exodus 4:10-17, 21: Moses now said to Jehovah {actually through the angel}: “Excuse me, Jehovah, but I am not a fluent speaker, neither since yesterday nor since before that nor since your speaking to your servant, for I am slow of mouth and slow of tongue.” 11 At that Jehovah said to him: “Who appointed a mouth for man or who appoints the speechless or the deaf or the clear-sighted or the blind? Is it not I, Jehovah? 12 So now go, and I myself {in the person of the angel his representative and spokesman} shall prove to be with your mouth and I will teach you what you ought to say.” 13 But he said: “Excuse me, Jehovah, but send, please, by the hand of the one whom you are going to send.” 14 Then Jehovah’s anger grew hot against Moses and he said: “Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I do know that he can really speak. And, besides, here he is on his way out to meet you. When he does see you, he will certainly rejoice in his heart. 15 And you must speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I myself shall prove to be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach YOU men what YOU are to do. 16 And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him. 17 And this rod you will take in your hand that you may perform the signs with it.” . . . 21 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “After you have gone and returned to Egypt see that YOU men actually perform all the miracles that I have put in your hand before Phar´aoh.. . .

    Exodus 6:1-8:So Jehovah said to Moses: “Now you will see what I shall do to Phar´aoh, because on account of a strong hand {composed of the angel and Moses and their use of God’s holy spirit or “finger” following God’s direction} he will send them away and on account of a strong hand {ditto above} he will drive them out of his land.”

    2 And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah. 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them. [The name, the actual word, "Jehovah" had been known, used and misused from the Garden of Eden on as at Genesis 4:1 & 26: “Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.” . . . “And to Seth also there was born a son and he proceeded to call his name E´nosh. At that time a start was made of calling on {in false worship} the name of Jehovah.” The Person represented by that “name” had not revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the way He was now going to do so. The “name” was now to have a fuller meaning as explained at Exodus 3:14. It was now going to represent or portray a Person that “shall prove to be” a fulfiller of promises, covenants and a deliverer, a redeemer.] 4 And I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Ca´naan, the land of their alien residences in which they resided as aliens. 5 And I, even I, have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, whom the Egyptians are enslaving, and I remember my covenant.

    6 “Therefore say to the sons of Israel, ‘I am Jehovah, and I shall certainly bring YOU out from under the burdens of the Egyptians and deliver YOU from their slavery, and I shall indeed reclaim YOU with an outstretched arm and with great judgments {performed by Moses with the aid of the angel and using God’s finger}. 7 And I shall certainly take YOU to me as a people, and I shall indeed prove to be God to YOU; and YOU will certainly know that I am Jehovah YOUR God who is bringing YOU out from under the burdens of Egypt. 8 And I shall certainly bring YOU into the land that I raised my hand in oath to give to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and I shall indeed give it to YOU as something to possess. I am Jehovah [The One who “shall prove to be” what ever is necessary to fulfill promises and covenants, to provide deliverance and redemption].’”

    Exodus 6:28-7:2: And it came about on the day that Jehovah spoke to Moses in the land of Egypt, 29 that Jehovah went on to speak to Moses, saying: “I am Jehovah. Speak to Phar´aoh king of Egypt everything I am speaking to you.” 30 Then Moses said before Jehovah: “Look! I am uncircumcised in lips, so how will Phar´aoh ever listen to me?”

    7 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar´aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. 2 You—you will speak all that I shall command you; and Aaron your brother will do the speaking to Phar´aoh, and he must send the sons of Israel away from his land.

    Again, the above verses make it plain that Jehovah was the author of what Moses was to say and to do and was the source of the power that was described as "the finger of God". The following verses will show that the situation was the same with Jesus.

    John 7:16-31: Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him. . . . 28 Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth30 Hence they began seeking to get hold of him, but no one laid a hand upon him, because his hour had not yet come. 31 Still, many of the crowd put faith in him; and they commenced saying: “When the Christ arrives, he will not perform more signs than this man has performed, will he?”





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  12. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    John 12:23-50: But Jesus answered them, saying: “The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains just one [grain]; but if it dies, it then bears much fruit. 25 He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life. 26 If anyone would minister to me, let him follow me, and where I am there my minister will be also. If anyone would minister to me, the Father will honor him. 27 Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me out of this hour. Nevertheless, this is why I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Therefore a voice came out of heaven: “I both glorified [it] {as in Egypt} and will glorify [it] again29 Hence the crowd that stood about and heard it began to say that it had thundered. Others began to say: “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 In answer Jesus said: “This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for YOUR sakes. 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw men of all sorts to me.” 33 This he was really saying to signify what sort of death he was about to die. 34 Therefore the crowd answered him: “We heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever; and how is it you say that the Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?” 35 Jesus therefore said to them: “The light will be among YOU a little while longer. Walk while YOU have the light, so that darkness does not overpower YOU; and he that walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While YOU have the light, exercise faith in the light, in order to become sons of light.”

    Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. 37 But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38 so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” 39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. 42 All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.

    44 However, Jesus cried out and said: “He that puts faith in me puts faith, not in me [only], but in him [also] that sent me; 45 and he that beholds me beholds [also] him that sent me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in the darkness. 47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day; 49 because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. 50 Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me [them], so I speak [them]

    Who/what is "the arm of Jehovah"? The apostle John is quoting from Isaiah 53:1 and, under inspiration, is applying it to Jesus. At Isaiah 53:1 the expression “the arm of Jehovah,” is also cross-referenced to Isaiah 51:5,9-10 and Isaiah 52:10 and Isaiah 63:11-14 in several study Bibles I have.

    Isaiah 53:1: Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?

    Isaiah 51:5: My righteousness is near. My salvation will certainly go forth, and my own arms will judge even the peoples. In me the islands themselves will hope, and for my arm they will wait.

    Isaiah 51:9-10: Awake, awake, clothe yourself with strength, O arm of Jehovah! Awake as in the days of long ago, as during the generations of times long past. Are you not the one that broke Ra´hab {not the harlot from Jericho, but “the Stormer”, “the arrogant one, that is, impious Pharaoh”; LXXVg, “the arrogant (haughty) one.” See Isaiah 30:7} to pieces, that pierced the sea monster? 10 Are you not the one that dried up the sea, the waters of the vast deep? The one that made the depths of the sea a way for the repurchased ones to go across?

    Isaiah 30:7: And the Egyptians are mere vanity, and they will help simply for nothing. Therefore I have called this one: “Ra´hab—they are for sitting still {Rahab=Pharaoh}

    Isaiah 52:10: Jehovah has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth must see the salvation of our God.

    Isaiah 63:11-14: And one began to remember the days of long ago, Moses his servant: “Where is the One that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is the One that put within him His own holy spirit? 12 The One making His beautiful arm go at the right hand of Moses; the One splitting the waters from before them in order to make an indefinitely lasting name for his own self; 13 the One making them walk through the surging waters so that, like a horse in the wilderness, they did not stumble? 14 Just as when a beast itself goes down into the valley plain, the very spirit of Jehovah proceeded to make them rest.” Thus you led your people in order to make a beautiful name for your own self.

    Exodus 13:21-22: And Jehovah was going ahead of them in the daytime in a pillar of cloud to lead them by the way, and in the nighttime in a pillar of fire to give them light to go in the daytime and nighttime. 22 The pillar of cloud would not move away from before the people in the daytime nor the pillar of fire in the nighttime.



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  13. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Exodus 14:13-18: Then Moses said to the people: “Do not be afraid. Stand firm and see the salvation {Isaiah 52:10} of Jehovah, which he will perform for YOU today. For the Egyptians whom YOU do see today YOU will not see again, no, never again. 14 Jehovah will himself fight for YOU, and YOU yourselves will be silent.”

    15 Jehovah {represented by the angel spokesman} now said to Moses: “Why do you keep crying out to me? Speak to the sons of Israel that they should break camp. 16 As for you, lift up your rod and stretch your hand out over the sea and split it apart{even though Jehovah commanded Moses to do the ‘splitting’ we know it was actually Jehovah acting by means of Moses and “His beautiful arm”}, that the sons of Israel may go through the midst of the sea on dry land. 17 As for me, here I am letting the hearts of the Egyptians become obstinate, that they may go in after them and that I may get glory for myself {Remember John 12:28} by means of Phar´aoh and all his military forces, his war chariots and his cavalrymen. 18 And the Egyptians will certainly know that I am Jehovah when I get glory for myself by means of Phar´aoh, his war chariots and his cavalrymen

    Exodus 14:19-20: Then the angel of the [true] God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them. 20 So it came in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. On the one hand it proved to be a cloud together with darkness. On the other hand it kept lighting up the night. And this group did not come near that group all night long.

    Exodus 14:21-25: Moses now stretched his hand out over the sea; and Jehovah {by means of the angel or, according to Isaiah, “His beautiful arm”} began making the sea go back by a strong east wind all night long and converting the sea basin into dry ground, and the waters were being split apart. 22 At length the sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on dry land, while the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians took up the pursuit, and all the horses of Phar´aoh, his war chariots and his cavalrymen began going in after them, into the midst of the sea. 24 And it came about during the morning watch that Jehovah {by means of the angel} began to look out upon the camp of the Egyptians from within the pillar of fire and cloud, and he went throwing the camp of the Egyptians into confusion. 25 And he kept taking wheels off their chariots so that they were driving them with difficulty; and the Egyptians began to say: “Let us flee from any contact with Israel, because Jehovah certainly fights for them against the Egyptians.”

    Exodus 14:31: “Israel also got to see the great hand that Jehovah put in action against the Egyptians; and the people began to fear Jehovah and to put faith in Jehovah and in Moses his servant.” Just as “true worshipers” would later put faith in Jehovah and in Jesus “his servant”!

    Exodus 23:20-23: Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I shall speak, then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass those who harass you. 23 For my angel will go ahead of you and will indeed bring you to the Am´or·ites and the Hit´tites and the Per´iz·zites and the Ca´naan·ites, the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites, and I shall certainly efface them.

    Joshua 5:13-15 (follow the link, very interesting wording): And it came about when Joshua happened to be by Jer´i·cho that he proceeded to raise his eyes and look, and there there was a man standing in front of him with his drawn sword in his hand. So Joshua walked up to him and said to him: “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14 To this he said: “No, but I—as prince of the army of Jehovah I have now come.” With that Joshua fell on his face to the earth and prostrated himself and said to him: “What is my lord saying to his servant?” 15 In turn the prince [the chief] of the army of Jehovah said to Joshua: “Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place on which you are standing is holy {remember the burning bush}.” At once Joshua did so.

    Are you starting to get the idea the there is something very special and unique about this angel? Let’s see where we go from here:

    Daniel 10:13: But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia.

    Daniel 10:20-21: “So he went on to say: “Do you really know why I have come to you? And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming. 21 However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mi´cha·el, the prince of YOU people." ("The prince of Persia" and "the prince of Greece" are demons. The only nation, ever, to have an angel from God was the nation of Israel. That situation and that nation came to an end in the first century. All nations are, in fact, "under Satan". Matthew 4:8-11 proves it. Follow this link.)

    Daniel 12:1: “And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book.

    Jude 9: But when Mi´cha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”



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  14. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    2 Peter 2:11: “whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring against them an accusation in abusive terms, [not doing so] out of respect for Jehovah.”

    1 Thessalonians 4:16: “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

    Revelation 12:7: And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled

    Revelation 12:10: And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

    Exodus 8:13: Then Jehovah did according to Moses’ word, and the frogs began to die off from the houses, the courtyards and the fields.

    Exodus 8:31: So Jehovah did according to Moses’ word, and the gadflies turned away from Phar´aoh, his servants and his people. Not one was left.

    Exodus 7:1: Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar´aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.

    Romans 15:4-6: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant YOU to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, 6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Just the same as Jehovah made Moses “God”, Jehovah also made “The Word” (God's chief spokesman) “God”, or “God-like”. (John 1:1 according to Edgar J. Goodspeed in his translation, The Complete Bible An American Translation, “the Word was divine”. Or, according to James Moffatt in his translation, The Bible A New Translation by James Moffatt, “the Logos was divine”. Benjamin Wilson in his, Emphatic Diaglott, in the interlinear word-for-word (literal) reading of the Greek reads: “In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” The accompanying English rendering of the text uses capital and small capital letters for “the GOD”, and initial capital and lowercase letters for the second appearance of “God” in the sentence: “In the Beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with GOD, and the LOGOS was God.”) The scriptures above clearly show that Moses was not the author of his actions or words, and neither was Jesus, even though at times some scriptures make it seem as though Moses and Jesus are the source or “the author” of what they did and said.

    Under inspiration John connects Jesus to “the arm of Jehovah” and to other scriptures in Isaiah such as Isaiah 63:11-14. There we find Jehovah is "making His beautiful arm go at the right hand of Moses" thus connecting Jesus to Moses and those events in Exodus. In many other places also, Isaiah connects Jehovah's “arm” with “salvation”, both past (at the time of Moses) and future (referring to Jesus). In Isaiah we find descriptions of actions taken by “the arm of Jehovah” and “His beautiful arm”, etc. that are tied to the events we find recorded in Exodus. And then in Exodus, we find those same events being ascribed to Jehovah, Moses and “the angelof the [true] God who was going ahead of the camp”. Exodus 23:20-23 leads us to Joshua 5:13-15 and cross-references from there lead us to Daniel, where we find that this angel had the personal name Michael. Jude tells us that Michael is the archangel, the chief angel, and again ties him back to Moses and the events in Exodus. Even other scriptures tie Michael and the ‘archangel’ to events and actions that are almost universally attribute to Jesus. In other words, we have come full circle. Now consider the following scriptures:

    John 14:9-17: Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to YOU men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works. 11 Believe me that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me; otherwise, believe on account of the works themselves. 12 Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father. 13 Also, whatever it is that YOU ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. 14 If YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it.

    15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16 and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper {besides me} to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit of the truth {“the finger of God”}, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU.

    John 20:17-22: Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag´da·lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her. 19 Therefore, when it was late on that day, the first of the week, and, although the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May YOU have peace.” 20 And after he said this he showed them both his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord. 21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May YOU have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.” 22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit.






    Continues below.


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  15. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Revelation 1:1-6: A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

    4 John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia:

    May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One {Jehovah} who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”

    To him {Jesus} that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he {Jesus} made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father {Jehovah}—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

    Revelation 19:13: “and he {Jesus} is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.” Interestingly, the LITV, to which I linked repeatedly, capitalizes the phrase “Word of God” every single time it occurs.

    Jesus is not the author of Revelation, God is. God gave the Revelation to Jesus to give to John. There are many, many more scriptures that could be added to the above. So the above is actually brief, believe it or not.



    As Minnie Pearl used to say: I'm through playin' now.




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  16. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    I by no means referred to God as being imperfect/and or negative. I was only referring to your negative outlook on God himself and your scrutiny against his wills and judgements in being “looked upon as negative” – when it actual fact, it is not negative. God is perfect and knows all and his creations and works speak for themselves: “I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, as my soul is very well aware.” (Psalm 139:14)

    A quick question for you: If you accept that God has no negatives (which I wholeheartedly agree with), why do you perpetually scrutinize Him and His works along with His past and future protocols?



    The Bible is the truth, and explains itself remarkably well! The most fascinating aspects in our modern times about the Bible with the accusations that the Bible “is out of date” is BIBLE PROPHECY. Scriptures are being fulfilled as we speak about the political climate of our day and it is affecting us now and also tells us in what ERA Armageddon will come! What are these prophecies? I’ll leave you in suspense for the time being, since I will soon start a thread on it. The age of the Bible is very deceiving to what’s actually inside, and if you are the same as me, you will be awestruck on how detailed and accurate Bible prophecy really is and how it is affecting us NOW. The Bible not only offers hope – but also gives us prophecies in to what will actually happen and WHEN. When I start the new thread soon, THEN you decide whether the Bible is the word of God or not. Until then, please keep an open mind and give it a chance. ;)

    Can I name a religion that has this truth? Carrdero, the very best thing you could do is to go through each and every religion, see how they follow their holy books and most importantly, how they apply them, see their fruitage, how their followers reflect on what they believe, see whether their doctrines are in line with scripture, are they politically influenced or not, and many other more different criteria’s until you thirst has been quenched onto who is right and wrong. The ball is entirely in your court. It is up to YOU to make that decision – nobody on this planet can make that decision for you.





    Unless you are fluent is ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, the Bible does not need to be translated for you! ;) For the rest of us who don’t understand those languages, it is a great privilege to see those very same pages of the Bible that we can now understand in our own language, and therefore, benefit from. The reason why so much effort is put into understanding the truth of the Bible with publications, books, and worldwide circulation, is so that everybody on this planet can be given the chance to benefit from the Bible truths – all for non-profit. Some parts of the Bible are complex for a reason – because they symbolize something more than to what they actually are – therefore, something deeper than at face value. This could be God’s way of “encrypting” certain scriptures to make sure that ONLY the people who are INTENDED to understand these scriptures (i.e. chosen by God) get the deeper truths of it. When you go on Google and see the different and false interpretations of the scriptures, you can see why God wants to only assign this work to a certain group of people (i.e. his people). Carrdero, let me ask you this question: If you look at Matthew 24:14, who is the ONLY religion identified on this PLANET who is fulfilling this scripture? Because I can’t think of any other religion who is doing it – therefore, not fulfilling Jesus’ prophecy, and remember, divine to date has NEVER failed.

    http://www.watchtower.org/library/t13/why_trust.htm

    http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/12/1/article_02.htm



    Even though you have a faith and you are on a quest for TRUTH – which is highly commendable – do you think that if God DOES have a will, will personal revelation have any bearings on it? A human by himself cannot create his own paradise – God can only do that for you. Why don’t you TRY to first get to God’s version of a paradise before you judge it – and if you don’t like it, you can always cease to want to be there. Only THEN, will you be 100% happy that God’s paradise was not for you.

    Proverbs 3:5: “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding”.



    The only way you can quench your thirst for answers if you look deep into your heart, and search for yourself. The Bible is a miracle. It is impossible that its authorship was by men. It was 1600 years in the making. Not a single contradiction. Prophecies that were millenniums in advance. Does this sound like a normal book to you? Could it be from divine sources? What are it’s prophecies? Do these prophecies affect you now? How? Is the Bible just a “good book”, or does it have deeper revelations? Are there any other books like the Bible? Which religion on this planet is best following it’s words? Carrdero, you need to find these question out for yourself.
     
  17. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    God does not NEED exclusive devotion. It is OUR way of showing HIM that we love him: “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind—MATTHEW 22:37. By exacting exclusion devotion from us, it means we are not worshipping OTHER gods, and we therefore love HIM. And for the people who love him, he will bless these people.





    So if God does not judge, how is he supposed to bring about the promises he gave to his followers? If God did not judge, how would this earth EVER change? How would paradise ever come to exist? Why would God not judge the people who are making a mockery of him? What is the point of life if God brought about ZERO changes? 1 Corinthians 15:32,33: “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.” 33 Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. 34 Wake up to soberness in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some are without knowledge of God.





    So you think that God is not capable of following through on his promises?





    No, we are not totally living for Armageddon with nothing else on our mind – but we can’t deny to people that it will not happen either. As kingdom preachers, we try to let everybody on this planet know about what the future holds in store for them. That way, they can at least have an informed choice on the matter – just like Noah did before the great flood. Like Noah, we are ridiculed, laughed and jeered at, and told we are talking rubbish. But did the flood happen? Yes. Is there archaeological evidence? Yes. Ask yourself this: What is a huge man-made wooden box-like structure doing at the top of mountain where the environment is so harsh that not even 21st century explorers have the will to go up there? What mountain is this? It is called Mount Ararat – just like the Bible said where the Ark landed (Gen 8:4). Does that mean that Moses went all the way up to Mt. Ararat before he could write that down? No. He was told where it was. By whom? God. I’m not trying to sway off course here, but the points remain the same: There are people out there who do not believe Armageddon will happen until it is upon them – but it will be too late then. That is why you have to make sure of the time you have NOW!



    “I do not think the world is all that wicked.” That’s because you live in a cocoon called the United States – the richest country in the world and where media coverage is filtered so you don’t really see the outside. On the contrary, the world is on it’s knees right now and is getting worse. If you lived in central Africa, I can assure you that you would not be whistling the same tune as you are now: MILLIONS are getting slaughtered in huge genocides across Africa. Two-thirds of the world population live on less than a dollar a day. 40,000,000 are living with AIDS. 60,000,000 in the last 4 years have died of tobacco related causes. 5,625,000 deaths from infectious and parasitic diseases in Africa 2002. 2,000,000 die of tuberculosis annually. 1,000,000 die of Malaria annually.

    So are you sure that the world progressing….?



    WitnessofJah



    To be continued….
     
  18. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    You have to understand that we are also sinful individuals – so we also make mistakes that we are not supposed to and our perceptive conscience between right and wrong has dimmed significantly since time began. “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” (Romans 5:12, KJ) However, it would be wrong to say that God has deliberately lowered his divine standards over time to accommodate for our shortcomings. Until his cut-off point, he is willing to forgive everybody on this planet because of his LOVING provision that he gave us: The ransom of his Son in exchange for sin. God can see deep into our heart and know whether we are trying to please him or not. No man is sinless, but if he can see into our hearts and see that we are trying, then that is enough for him. However, if people are deliberately wicked, he will not accept them into His kingdom. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: “What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”

    The Bible was fully completed 2000 years ago, so people can’t turn around and say that they did’nt know about his upright principles. ALSO, we are on a worldwide project in theocratic ministry to let everybody on this planet KNOW who God is and what he teaches. We are giving people a LIFE-LINE - and if people reject that, then they can’t complain that they were not given the chance.

    At the same time, if you say that God should not judge people, then you have no available space to complain about why the world is in the state it is in – because you don’t want it to change.



    Are you referring to Revelation? That is my favourite book! :D The most probable reason why you did not enjoy it is probably because you could not understand it. It is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC book that talks about our future! I’ll explain it one day. ;)



    The entire Bible is not an entire dictation from God – it also reflects the different writing styles of the inspired writers and their environment at the time. Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible in nothing but desert in a time where the local culture was very cut-throat and invasions from surrounding tribes were fairly common. Whereas, the book of Revelation was written while John was in prison where it would have been fairly dark and quiet and his surounding culture was fairly civilized because of the current Roman rule. Both men would have had different handwriting – but both are unique in the sense that the intended message God transmitted would have been in the same way.

    Another thing you have to take into consideration is the local culture. Remember, the OT revolved around the Mosaic Law and the Jews, while on the otherhand, the NT reflects the coming of Christ and his new laws – laws not etched in stone, but laws etched in the heart. The OT might appear to be a very rough book and the Jewish culture was very rough around the edges – which is why God gave them the Mosaic laws to not change but regulate their culture. This “tyrannical” God you speak of is the same person in the OT that said that slaves had to be released after 7 years with provisions provided, said that you were not allowed to over-harvest your crops so that the poor and needy had something to eat, and that you should show love to your neighbour. Is the God of the OT and NT really that different? Not at all.



    So what TRUTH are you looking for? What EXACTLY do you expect to find? What REWARDS do you expect to reap?



    Nowhere in the Bible does say it say that God will give us “unconditional love”. He loves humanity dearly, but he will not let evil deeds and wickedness be discreetly swept under the rug, so to speak. King David was very dear to God – and it says this several times in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, when he sinned by killing Uriah and marrying his wife, Bathsheba - a punishment had to dealt. This shows that God is not biased towards any particular group of people; it shows that an individual’s future is in his/her own hands, despite their spiritual background.

    Is our free will being inflicted upon? Well, Jehovah has left humans up to their own devices for the last 6000 years, and what have they done with their free will? Destroy eachother (100,000,000 in WW1 and WW2 only), create a huge gap between the rich and poor, desolate our environment at a crippling rate, create indispensable nuclear warheads, drop two of them on civilians, create more of them after that, kill wildlife to extinction, and then once that’s all done, the promptly BLAME HIM for the mess they have caused. If you are looking for that kind of freedom, then you don’t need to go much further – you’re already living in a system which do as they please.
     
  19. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    I am very aware that you cannot miss the things we never had – I was just emphasizing the point! Nonetheless, Jehovah knows the best for us and did what was the best for us. It might not seem clear to you and some other people out there now, but once his will has finally been carried out, his reasonings will all make sense. It is very easy to point the finger at God, but people never point the finger at Satan for even challenging Jehovah in the first place, and people never point their fingers at the humans who, with their own free will that God gave them (and the free will you are trying to eternally protect), have collectively destroyed our earth and brought down mankind’s morals. Is that sound reasoning to you?



    Your wish is my command! ;) For the first time in history, prophecies are being fulfilled as we speak and the end is now in sight! I guarantee that system will not go on for much longer – and I am not just saying that. All the tools to the end of mankind are now here for the first time in mankinds history – apart from one! The tool that is missing is called “The King of the North” – and it won’t be long until he arrives onto the seen! Who is this “King of the North”? I will be giving full explanations in a new thread as to how close Armageddon is. In the meantime keep this verse in mind: "What I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch."—Mark 13:37. ;)



    Thanks,



    WitnessofJah
     
  20. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    HOGCALLER, I read those posts, and it was excellent material. Anybody who believes in the Trinity or thinks that Michael is not Jesus - please read them!

    When deep examination of the Bible is undertaken, the truth of the Bible becomes revealed to us. The question is: If those truths expose themselves to us, do we act on them or ignore them?

    Again, excellent post.

    WitnessofJah ;)
     
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