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Ask about Jehovah's Witnesses

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by WitnessofJah, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ????? Arianism was a fourth century heresy..... that pre-dates the Church?

    Not by a long shot.... try again.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm
     
  2. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    WitnessOfJah thank you for your responses. These two questions were somehow overlooked or possibly misunderstood.

    Is GOD not available to everyone who desires TRUE UNDERSTANDING? Can GOD inspire and teach us today as the authors of THE BIBLE did back in the early centuries?



    I guess the question can be elaborated to why does Jehovah need a book? Cannot GOD be reached for questioning and answers received in a timely and TRUTHFUL manner if we spoke to Him directly or were inspired by GOD like the authors of THE BIBLE? Would this not alleviate the need for a book or the act of putting faith into a book if an outspoken two way conversation between human and Supreme BEing was available? There were also a couple of points in your response that I wanted to discuss but I do not believe that this is the thread to debate them.
     
  3. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    sorry scott, but that is a plain lie, as scripture supports the stance blatently.just because 'universalism'(rcc) labeled it as a heresy in the 4th century doesn't mean it didn't exist before that.

    jesus* had a pre-existence and is not equal to the father.this is also found in the jewish belief which as i hope you know pre-dates christianity.*the messiah to come, as the jewish do not believe in 'jesus' of course.

    excuse me if i repeat myself as i try to show my evidence using scripture alone?

    Acts7:35"This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? him hath God sent [to be] both a ruler and a deliverer with the hand of the angel that appeared to him in the bush."

    Joh 17:3"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ."

    Ga4:14"and that which was a temptation to you in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but ye received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus."

    Joh 14:28"Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I."

    John 15:10"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love"

    John15:1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser."

    Luke16:8"...for the sons of this world are for their own generation wiser than the sons of the light."

    Matthew 26:39"...My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

    1tim2:5"For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, man, Christ Jesus"

    Dan9:12"And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil; for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem."

    dan12:1"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book"

    heb5:8,9"though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered;and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation"

    heb1:2-4"hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they."

    1co3:23"and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's."

    1co11:3"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

    1pe1:3"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

    john4:6"and Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour."

    rev3:12[jesus speaking]"He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name."

    acts3:13"...The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus"

    acts3:26"Unto you first God, having raised up his Servant, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities"

    isa42:1"Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."

    John13:16"Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him."

    Joh 7:16"Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me."

    Matthew20:28"even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

    john3:35"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand"

    heb4:15"For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin."

    Jas 1:13"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man"

    Nu 23:19"God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?"

    2Sam7:13-16"He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.I will be his father, and he shall be my son: if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;but my lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."

    Isa53:10-12"Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

    1co15:20"But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep."

    1Th 4:14"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

    tbc
     
  4. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    1Ti6:3"If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness"

    1Ti 3:16"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh..."

    1ti4:7"but refuse profane and old wives' fables. And exercise thyself unto godliness"

    rev17:14"These shall war against the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings; and they that are with him, called and chosen and faithful."

    Da 2:37"Thou, O king, art king of kings, unto whom the God of heaven hath given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory;"

    1Ti6:15"which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"

    Eze 26:7"Thou, O king, art king of kings, unto whom the God of heaven hath given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory"

    Ezr 7:12"Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect and so forth"

    Ro8:29"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

    Colossians1:18"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence"

    heb12:23"to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven..."

    rev1:5"and from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood"

    mt7:14"For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it."

    acts5:31"Him did God exalt with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins."

    1John2:12-14"I write unto you, [my] little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.I write unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil one. I have written unto you, little children, because ye know the Father.I have written unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the evil one."

    John 5:21"For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will."

    John 5:25"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live."

    1Th4:16"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

    Jud13:21,22"..Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of [hwhy]..Manoah said..We shall surely die, because we have seen 'God'.."

    1co15:28"..And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that elohim may be all in all..."

    heb5:9"and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;"

    acts2:36"Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified."

    Zec3:1-3"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.thee, O Satan; yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the angel."

    Ex23:20-22"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.Take ye heed before him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgression: for my name is in him.But if thou shalt indeed hearken unto his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries."

    heb2:17"Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

    john14:31"but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do..."

    ro8:17"and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him]."

    john20:23"whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained."

    Ps8:4-6"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him?For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.Thou makest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet"

    Ps 82:6"I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High."

    Joh 10:34"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?"

    1Co 8:5,6"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."


    love
     
  5. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    if you weren't so into quoting historians or historical figures i would not offer the following, not that i believe you will read it, but that i wish you would.

    Historian Will Durant: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."

    Albrecht Ritschl (1822-89) saw the Trinity doctrine as flagrantly Hellenistic. It had corrupted the Christian message by introducing an alien "layer of metaphysical concepts, derived from the natural philosophy of the Greeks," and it had nothing to do with early Christianity.

    Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

    "Despite their orthodox confession of the Trinity, Christians are, in their practical life, almost mere monotheists. We must be willing to admit that, should the doctrine of the Trinity have to be dropped as false, the major part of religious literature could well remain virtually unchanged." Karl Rahner, The Trinity, J. Donceel, trans, p.10

    "We are judged to be heretics because we can no longer believe in essence, person, nature, incarnation, as they want us to believe. If these things are necessary for salvation, it is certain that no poor peasant Christian be saved, because he could never understand them in all his life." -- Francis David (1510-79)

    "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." -- The Illustrated Bible Dictionary

    The New Encyclopedia Britannica: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."

    Yale University Professor E. Washburn Hopkins: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it." -- Origin and Evolution of Religion.

    Tom Harpur states, "As early as the 8th century, the Theologian St. John of Damascus frankly admitted what every modern critical scholar of the NT now realizes: that neither the Doctrine of the Trinity nor that of the 2 natures of Jesus Christ is explicitly set out in scripture. In fact, if you take the record as it is and avoid reading back into it the dogmatic definitions of a later age, you cannot find what is traditionally regarded as orthodox Christianity in the Bible at all."

    Historian Arthur Weigall: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord." -- The Paganism in Our Christianity

    "Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything." -- Robert A. Heinlein

    ect. much more.


    Have you ever noticed that Bible Dictionaries and most scholarly religious encyclopedias and reference works don't use scriptures when discussing the Trinity? Why is that? Because they don't prove a trinity. For a trinity you need "THREE". But if the Trinity is not in the Bible, then where did we get it from? Welcome to the Nicene Creed

    325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the church. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.

    According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
    "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'."

    The American Academic Encyclopedia states:
    "Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement."

    At the end of this council, Constantine sided with Athanasius over Arius and exiled Arius to Illyria.

    328 AD - Athanasius becomes bishop of Alexandria.

    328 AD - Constantine recalls Arius from Illyria.

    335 AD - Constantine now sides with Arius and exiles Athanasius to Trier.

    337 AD - A new emperor, Contantius, orders the return of Athanasius to Alexandria.

    339 AD - Athanasius flees Alexandria in anticipation of being expelled.

    341 AD - Two councils are held in Antioch this year. During this council, the First, Second, and Third Arian Confessions are written, thereby beginning the attempt to produce a formal doctrine of faith to oppose the Nicene Creed.

    343 AD - At the Council of Sardica, Eastern Bishops demand the removal of Athanasius.

    346 AD - Athanasius is restored to Alexandria.

    351 AD - A second anti - Nicene council is held in Sirmium.

    353 AD - A council is held at Aries during Autumn that is directed against Athanasius.

    355 AD - A council is held in Milan. Athanasius is again condemned.

    356 AD - Athanasius is deposed on February 8th, beginning his third exile.

    357 AD - Third Council of Sirmium is convened. Both homoousios and homoiousios are avoided as unbiblical, and it is agreed that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son.

    359 AD - The Synod of Seleucia is held which affirms that Christ is "like the Father," It does not however, specify how the Son is like the Father.

    361 AD - A council is held in Antioch to affirm Arius' positions.

    380 AD - Emperor Theodosius the Great declares Christianity the official state religion of the empire.

    381 AD - The First Council of Constantinople is held to review the controversy since Nicaea. Emperor Theodosius the Great establishes the creed of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. The Nicene Creed is re-evaluated and accepted with the addition of clauses on the Holy Spirit and other matters.

    If Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church, then why all the conflicts? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or accept not being Christians.

    It was a theological power grab by a faction of the church. A major complication throughout all this was that the emperors were involved and directed the outcome. At Nicaea it was Constantine that decided the outcome. Then we have the flip-flopping of opinion with the result that Athanasius is exiled and recalled depending on who is in power. In 357 AD the declaration that homoousios and homoiousios are unbiblical, and that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son. This is 180 degrees from Nicaea.

    For the most part, the Trinitarian church has silenced critical thought and dealt treacherously with anyone of open mind and free thought. In the 1670's, Isaac Newton quietly studied the Trinity and came to the conclusion that the doctrine was foisted on the Church by Athanasius in order to swell the numbers and fill the coffers. He concluded Arius was right and he claimed that the Bible had prophesied the Rise of Trinitarianism("this strange religion of the west", the cult of 3 equal gods) as the abomination of desolation.
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Great cut and paste work, but arianism denied the divinity of Christ.... so you are saying that they were doing that BEFORE Christ was born???????????

    You're not paying attention..... it was you that said arianism was part of JEWISH tradition....
     
  7. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Absolutely - and that's the only proof that you need - the Bible, the word of God. If according to you, the Bible also relies on "external sources" to prove it's case, than anything can be "proved" and is inconclusive. That's what seperates the Bible from any other book - the ability to prove itself right.

    SOGFPP, ask yourself this question: If the God(s?) wanted his followers to know about the Trinity, why does'nt the word "Trinity" appear in the Bible a single time in any translation?

    This is the first time I have heard this one. :) What "traditions" do you have in mind?

    Going back to what you said earlier, that the Trinity and "Christianity" coincided before the 3rd century - I 100% agree with you. However, it was not really accepted as a mainstream doctrine in Christianity until the 3rd century. Before then, only small minority groups promoted the idea (like your references showed). The Trinity "grew" into Christianity - but was not always a part of it.
     
  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    thanks, i hope you know i participate in more than one forum, and i have discussed these issues before.i wonder if you noticed the responses to your quotes which i made today, not pasted(and not refuted by you..).

    arianism-the belief that the messiah had a pre-earth existance sub-ordinant to the father

    this as you may be able to tell, is as the jewish belief is, it doesn't have to pertain to 'jesus' as it pertains to the messiah.in christians instance it is of course 'jesus', but in the jewish sense, it of course refers to the 'yet-to-come' messiah.in that they do not expect the almighty to come to earth as no scripture denotes such an occurance.

    according to all definitions i find, to be divine is basically to be perfect.and i know of no arian that claims any less of the messiah yeshua(jesus).

    divine=
    1. Having the nature of or being a deity.
    2. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity.
    3. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.
    4. Superhuman; godlike.
    1. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent.
    2. Extremely pleasant; delightful.
    3. Heavenly; perfect.
    diety=
    1. The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.
    none of these imply equality with the almighty nor do any of them imply that said figure was not created.no biblical verse states the father alone is divine.

    so if you mean something you're not saying, i encourage you to use plain english, and scriptural support would be apprectiated more than you know.

    love
     
  9. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    What is your definition of "True Understanding"? If your definition of "True Understanding" is the same as mine (which is what he teaches in the Bible and what he foretells), then yes, it is available to everyone. However, it has to be said that for people to get "True Understanding", it has to work both ways, which means that they also have to follow his commands and apply what he teaches in conjuction with reading his word. "...faith without works is dead." - James 2:26

    If you are referring to the powerful works and miracles that the Bible writers did in the times of the Bible to reprimand, to protect, and to teach the people and can God do that today, that is an good question. :) It is not necessary for God to perform such miracles in these times to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants. Even if God were to continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not even all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings. (Joh 12:9-11) So in this era, it's all about having faith. There are people today that would'nt even have faith even if the skies opened up before them! So therefore, it's just about having faith in his word, the Bible.




    The reason why God uses a book is to help "shepherd" his people to keep them in a steady and good manner in which we follow his commands and remain upright individuals. Without a book, we would be left to our own devices to "guess" what is right and what is wrong - therefore, open to anybody's interpretation! The Bible is also a double-edged sword. It not only tells us about the past and gives us good advice for the present - it also tells us about the future. Without this "book", how would we know what the future holds for us?

    A one-on-one conversation with God no longer happens for a single reason - we have the Bible! The only reason why God spoke directly to prophets back in biblical times is for the exact opposite reason he does not speak to us today - they did'nt have a book which told them what was right and wrong! However, your suggestion of God "speaking" to us no longer holds true in a literal sense, however, he does use his Holy Spirit (God's active force) to help,encourage, and comfort his people in the era we are in now.
     
  10. Jenny89

    Jenny89 New Member

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    i dont understand your answer...why dont you celebrate birthdays???
     
  11. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    The reason why we don't celebrate birthdays is not because we are trying to be anti-social or segregate ourselves in society, the real reason is because the origins of birthdays are shrouded in paganism and superstition. :) There is much more to birthdays that meet the eye. Here are some facts:

    - There is no denying, though, that numerous reference works reveal the superstitious and religious antecedents of celebrating birthdays. The Encyclopedia Americana (1991 edition) notes: "The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles." It says that the Romans observed the birth of Artemis and the day of Apollo. In contrast, "although the ancient Israelis kept records of the ages of their male citizens, there is no evidence that they had any festivities on the anniversary of the birth date."

    - Birthday parties began years ago in Europe. People believed in good and evil spirits, sometimes called good and evil fairies. Everyone was afraid of these spirits, that they would cause harm to the birthday celebrant, and so he was surrounded by friends and relatives whose good wishes, and very presence, would protect him against the unknown dangers that the birthday held. Giving gifts brought even greater protection. Eating together provided a further safeguard and helped to bring the blessings of the good spirits. So the birthday party was originally intended to make a person safe from evil and to insure a good year to come.’—Birthday Parties Around the World, 1967.

    - The book explains, too, the origin of many birthday customs. For example: "The reason [for using candles] goes back to the early Greeks and Romans who thought that tapers or candles had magical qualities. They would offer prayers and make wishes to be carried up to the gods by the flames of candles. The gods would then send down their blessings and perhaps answer the prayers."

    Also, there are only two references to birthdays in the Bible - and both result in a death. Read Genesis 40:2, 3, 20, 22 and Matthew 14:6-11 for both accounts.

    Clearly then, given the known origin of celebrating birthdays, and more important, the unfavorable light in which they are presented in the Bible, Christians have ample reason to abstain from the practice. The above information is only a little I have delved into, I could easily present much more evidence that shows the dark side of birthdays.

    If you would like me to elaborate on this, feel free to ask. ;)


     
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  12. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Protokos is used here only to show that Jesus is God. It is not used to prove the "trinity." It only shows that Jesus is inherently equal with God. Never is the Holy Spirit described as the firstborn of creation that I can remember. Besides I think it is inherent that God is preeminent over creation. Wouldn't you agree?





    Then who does Him refer to in verse 18? It refers to Jesus. You are changing the context of the passage to make it read something that isn't even there. The pronoun "Him" has to refer to a different noun in order to make it change its refference to God. The last noun used (besides creation, to which I think we can both agree it does not refer) is "protokos", firstborn, to whom you yourself say means Jesus. Therefore, all the following "Him"s and "He"s must refer back to Jesus because the noun "God" is not mentioned. Do you see my point?

    Also consider John: 20: 27 and 28. Thomas calls Jesus God directly. What is your opinion?



    The tricky thing to remember is that Jesus is not only God but, while on earth He was a man. God sent His son, (also Himself, God the Son) to earth to die. God can do Anything God wishes. To deny that God can do anything (i.e. come to earth in a physical body) is to deny the power of God Himself.



    Read John 10:30-33. Pay special attention to the end of verse 33 - The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
    Even the Jews who didn't even believe Jesus had any power at all realized that Jesus was claiming to be God. Whether or not that is proved by the previous verse is insignificant, because the Jews still realized what Jesus was claiming.


    That is because I never intended to prove "the trinity." I don't know where you even got that idea. My intent from the Beginning was to prove that Jesus was God. Nothing else. But if you want proof or evidence I can give it to you. Acts 5:3-5 equates the Holy Spirit to God. It reads,
    "Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
    5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened."
    To me it appears that Peter is equating The Holy Spirit to God.
     
  13. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Can Jehovah Witnesses conduct a BIBLE study with an interested homeowner without the aid of other Watchtower Tract publications? In other words can a BIBLE study consist of just studying THE BIBLE from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation without any outside references? Is it TRUE that Jehovah’s Witnesses encourage interested homeowners to use their own Bibles during a BIBLE study?
     
  14. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    So why would the meaning of Protokos change just for that one occasion when throughout the Bible the same word was used to describe other situations in exactly the same contexts? Why not use a different, more decisive word? If it is inherent that God is pre-eminent (which is true), why is it not also inherent that Jesus is preeminent, and also God? Also, if God intended to tell us that Jesus is God, why does’nt the Bible have a passage in the Bible in which Jesus says ‘I am a God the Almighty, equal to the father’ to save all the confusion? Why did the Trinity doctrine only get accepted into mainstream “Christianity” 300 years after he died and not before? Linus, there are just too many questions about the Jesus=God theory, and all the evidence in it’s favour is very vague at best. On the other hand, the Jesus = God’s son argument is in perfect harmony with the rest of the Bible, makes perfect sense, and actually has non-vague biblical support.



    Like I said before, I 100% agree with you that when it refers to “Him/He” it is referring to Jesus. However when it refers to “God” in verse 15 it is referring to the Almighty God, not Jesus. If God was Jesus, then why was “God” not replaced with “him”? The reason why is because the verse is talking about 2 separate individuals.

    Also, does Colossians 1:16, 17 exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan´ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan´ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.



    First of all, I want to say that 3 verses later in John 20:31 it says “Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”…. explain that one to me bearing in mind that you said Jesus is God and not his son and also in the same chapter John 20:17 which says ”Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God

    Right, onto your question of John 20:27,28. When Thomas calls Jesus “God” he did not mean “Almighty God” or “The God” he simply meant “God”. If you didn’t know, the word “God” means a strong one”. Jesus is also called “Mighty God” – but never called “Almighty God” in the entire Bible once – which is strictly reserved for Jehovah God. The Bible uses the word “god” and attributes it to various people throughout the Bible. For example: Moses was said to be as god to Pharaoh, and in the Psalms men are called gods, and the best one yet, Satan is referred to as “the god of this system of things” in 2 Corinthians 4:4. So, if according to you, the word “God” is taken in a literal sense, we would have many gods on our hands, both good and extremely evil!



    One verse:

    Matt. 26:39, RS: “Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face and prayed, ‘My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.’” So if the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father’s will.

    Linus, why would Jesus pray to himself to ask if it was possible for the task that was ahead of him to be turned away from him?



    The problem with this argument is that the bigger picture is not being looked at, you have to understand the situation, the context of Jesus words, and surrounding verses to grasp the full meaning.

    When charged by opposers with ‘making himself a god,’ Jesus’ reply was: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son (John 10:31-37) Jesus there quoted from Psalm 82, in which human judges, whom God condemned for not executing justice, were called “gods.” (Ps 82:1, 2, 6, 7) Thus, Jesus showed the unreasonableness of charging him with blasphemy for stating that he was, not God, but God’s Son.



    The scripture did not mean that he was lying to the Holy Spirit in a literal sense, it was that he was anointed with Holy Spirit (had the hope of going to heaven) and he defied it by cheating the congregation of money. Peter discerned his pretense, exposed him as ‘playing false to the holy spirit and to God,’ and Ananias fell down and expired. The “You have not lied to men but to God” was not referring for one moment to the Holy spirit, but to the Almighty God, Jehovah.



    Also, the Holy Spirit is God’s active force (his power), not a person. Proof? “How much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!”—LUKE 11:13. This reference to the holy spirit definitely does not fit a person. Also, not once is the Holy Spirit given a personal name in the Bible like Christ, the Son, is Jesus, and Almighty God is Jehovah. Why is that?



    Linus, if I come across a little aggressive, it is totally unintentional, I don’t mean any harm. ;)
     
  15. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    The literature that we use are an aid to what the Bible says, it is not a "deviation" or a "slant" to try and trick the householder. They promote exactly what he Bible says and makes the scriptures within the Bible digestible and easy to understand.

    Do we ever use the Bible by itself to conduct Bible studies? We use the Bible regularly, but we don't use it to the extent like you say, to Go from Genesis 1 to Revelation 21 non-stop. The reason being is that to the average Joe would not understand the Bible complexities and would render nothing from an exercise like that, and would need it to be fully explained - which is where the Bible aids come in.

    We don't encourage anybody to use our Bible. The reason why we show our householders our Bible is because it is probably the only one handy at the time! In fact, we regularly urge the householder to use their own Bible to look up our references to prove that we have nothing to hide.
     
  16. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    There is a question of Universal Sovereignty that I have just discovered about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If I am CORRECT this concept implies that as a society we are conflicted between GOD’s loving kindness and our exclusive worship for Him as opposed to GOD’s arch-nemesis, the cunning and seductive Satan. According to this "legend," if truly left by our own accord, humankind would surely pursue the pleasures of their fleshly existence rather than to the spiritual endeavors GOD has to offer. This conflict supposedly made itself evident for the first time in the Garden of Eden, and has continued through Job and Jesus and many civilizations to this day.



    Does this theory encourage the belief that GOD has conflicts or doubts not only about Himself but about us?



    Does this theory of Universal Sovereignty mean that GOD has to intervene into society’s affairs?



    If GOD has to intervene into our affairs is GOD acquiring the TRUE answers about our devoted LOVE and worship for Him?



    Does GOD necessarily need our LOVE and devotion to exist?



    Do we need GOD’s LOVE and devotion to exist?



    Does an All-K(NOW)ing GOD already K(NOW) our heart’s TRUE desires and which side (GOD or Satan’s) we will choose or can we still “surprise” GOD?



    Am I properly understanding the concept of Universal Sovereignty?



    I apologize for all the inquiries but when I found this topic on site it intrigued me and the questions kept pouring forth.
     
  17. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Nope... that's called circular logic and my athiest friends on this forum will shoot this false theory down in a heartbeat.

    Again, you are under the mistaken assumption that the Bible was intended as a stand alone "rule book" for an individual reader to interpret. God promised not to leave us a orphans and he didn't.... that's why Christ founded a Church that has remained to this day. The pillar and bullwark of the truth.

    Never heard of it? Whoo boy. :confused:
    The false theory of "Bible alone" was not taught by Christ.
    Nor the Apostles.
    Nor the Second Century Christians.
    or the 3rd
    or the 4th
    or the 5th
    or the 6th
    or the 7th
    or the 8th
    or the 9th
    or the 10th
    or the 11th
    or the 12th
    or the 13th
    or the 14th
    or the 15th

    The "Bible alone" doctrine is new.... a product of the Reformation...... a tradition of man that nullifies the word of God that remained unchanged for 1500 years.

    The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether it comes to us in written or oral form. (2 Thess 2:15, 1 Cor 11:2)

    Nice try, but quite untrue. Those quotes given are from the theological leaders of their day. If they were not widely accepted they would have been tossed out of the Church as heretics. Calling Jesus "my God"..... you think that's something they would have just let slide? I think not.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  18. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    i showed how the quotes, at least the early one point towards no trinity, just to the existence of the three.which is very different than equality.if calling someone 'my god' makes you inferior to them, then i suggest you read Rev3:12 amongst many others."He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name".4x, one verse, clean enough?in this case, yeshua was already in heaven, and not in his (supposed and unscriptural double nature) inferior man-state-of-being as trinitarians use this to combat john14:28.

    i seriously believe the to verses you quoted are indicating that we should only follow scriptural traditions, as i believe other verses point out clearly.mark7:8/9/13,matthew15:3/6.

    Mt 4:4:But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    this obviously is a reference to scripture, and not to church fathers.
     
  19. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    The bible must be difficult to believe if two people are arguing so much about it.
     
  20. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    It might explain why I had to go to GOD Himself to obtain my own.
     
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