Ask About Islam - an independent perspective.

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Here is a question for you and you can even have your Islamic Guru Ibn Kathir answer it. Ayatallah is often translated as verses, but original meaning meant signs of God and the type rehearsed from Quran included miracles of past Prophets.

If a person doesn't witness signs of God in form of miracles, can, they be a disbeliever in context of how Quran talked about it?

Look forward to seeing your proofs of one way or the other.

 

[Secret Chief]

We all used to be Muslim, according to Islam.

Maybe so, but I don't accept that.

Would it make a difference?

It might to me. I think if I wish to gain an understanding of Islam, a Muslim would be an obvious source to go to. Non-Muslim sources might also be of interest, but getting it from the "horse's mouth" would I think be good.

So...were you?

 

[stevecanuck]

What is the point of quoting scripture when we are dealing with an organized religion that has grown around multiple attempts at interpreting said scripture in particular ways? Wouldn't it make more sense to look at Islamic jurisprudence and theology and find the common or popular strands of religious interpretation and practice there?

I do that all the time. Take the case of Asia Bibi as a perfect example. A Christian Pakistani woman, she was sentenced to death for allegedly saying, "At least my Jesus died for me. What did your Mohamed ever do for you?". Can that be explained and/or justified by the Qur'an?

Yes, it can. Verse 5:33 says that people guilty of "spreading corruption ('fasad' in Arabic)" should be killed. The key here is to determine if her statement rises to the level of 'fasad'. In its various forms (verb, noun, and participle) it appears 50 times in the Qur'an, and is translated as 'corruption', 'mischief', and obvious synonyms. Given that the entire Qur'an is based on delineating the difference between belief and disbelief, and given the context in which 'fasad' is used throughout the Qur'an, it is obvious that it is a synonym for disbelief in Islam. For example:

- 8:73 not only ties 'fasad' to disbelief, but shows it as being synonymous with 'fitnah', "As for the unbelievers, they are friends one of another. Unless you [Muslims] do this [unite in friendship], there will be persecution [fitnah] in the land and great corruption [fasad]".
- 16:88 is another direct link of 'fasad' to disbelief, "Those that disbelieve and bar from the way of God ... they were doing corruption [fasad]".
- 38:28 is a rhetorical question meant to highlight that believers (Muslims) are superior to, and therefore the opposite of, those who commit 'fasad'. Clearly this implies that disbelief and committing 'fasad' are one and the same, "Shall We make those who believe and do righteous deeds as [equals to] the workers of corruption [fasad] in the earth?".

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

 

[stevecanuck]

So how do you know for a religion, which is based on faith, what is the correct answer? I mean, how do you know, because you can't use knowledge on faith, as it is not a matter of knowledge, but faith?

Faith is what makes one believe the Qur'an is from God. The Qur'an is what 'God' said. Therefore the knowledge of what 'God' wants comes from reading his words.

 

[stevecanuck]

Why is that more important to our understanding of "Islam" than the Islam that is factually being practiced, taught and lived by factually existing people? In what capacity is what you are referring to even Islam qua Islam, rather than your personalized construction of what you think true Islam ought to be?

It's as though you didn't read a word of his explanation of what his goal is here.

I consider the Qur'an to be Islam - full stop. If it was good enough for Mohamed-pretending-to-receive-revelations-from-God, then it's good enough for me. Verse 5:3 puts a cap on it with, "This day have I perfected your religion for you".

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe so, but I don't accept that..

No, nor do I.
I think this notion is often misunderstood.

 

[stevecanuck]

And that is Islam as it factually exists in our world.

So the insight you are offering is not into Islam as it is factually beight taught, lived and practiced, but into your personal interpretation of its scriptures.


You claim to accurately answer questions about Islam, while completely discarding factual Islamic practice and theology. The accuracy of your answers therefore cannot be based on a factually existing Islam, but only an idealized version of it.

Islam was conceived, created, and defined between the years 610 and 632. Anything and everything that is practiced differently from what is said in the Qur'an is a man-made add-on, and therefore a perversion.

If you want to look at Islam as practiced today, you have to start with the founding document, and that is all that Kwed is trying to do (IMO).

 

[muhammad_isa]

If it was good enough for Mohamed-pretending-to-receive-revelations-from-God,.

This is the crux of the matter.
How can anybody who doesn't believe it to be true, understand what it is saying?
The Qur'an is not a book of proofs. It is a book for those who believe.
A disbeliever is misguided, so how can they guide anybody to the truth?

They simply cannot !

 

[stevecanuck]

This is the crux of the matter.
How can anybody who doesn't believe it to be true, understand what it is saying?

Erm,,,,,,but reading it. I don't believe in Nazism, so I suppose it would be useless for me to read a translation of Mein Kampf.

The Qur'an is not a book of proofs.

It says it is. Many times.

It is a book for those who believe.
A disbeliever is misguided, so how can they guide anybody to the truth?

They simply cannot !

Catch-22. How can a person know the truth if he doesn't read it first? And if he already knows the truth, then the Qur'an is redundant.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Catch-22. How can a person know the truth if he doesn't read it first? And if he already knows the truth, then the Qur'an is redundant.

It's not that simple.

I didn't think it was true when I first read it. If G-d had not helped me, I wouldn't have known it to be truth.

If one has the wrong intention in the first place, one can never understand it. One cannot get everything from books.
One needs a community to show them how it is true.

If people don't listen to educated Muslims on the meaning, and just wish to be smart and prove it is incoherent, they are either wasting their time, or have an agenda on opposing it for reasons best known to themselves.

I would rather listen to a beggar in a poor country than a wealthy person in a rich one.
How can one expect a rich person to be guided when both Jesus and Muhammad taught that paradise will not be for the rich?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are mistaken.

What do you mean by "well grounded"?

See verse 3:7.
راسخون في العلم

Men of understanding of the meaning of the Quran. Who have been bestowed with knowledge by Allah, etc.

Right

I claim to be one as well. Pretty easy, huh?
Judging by the volumes he wrote, the sources he used, and the reputation he acquired, Ibn Kathir was clearly "well-grounded in knowledge", even of he didn't go around boasting about it like Sadiq.

If Sadigh was boasting that Allah made Him one of those who is well grounded in knowledge, one can say, Muhammad and other prophets were boasting around that they are a Messenger of God!!
It is not about boasting. It is about Allah choosing certain people to reveal His words, and certain people to explain and interpret His words. So, this was the case in Judaism. Moses revealed Book of God, then the prophets of Bani Israel explained and promoted the religion.
Likewise in Christianity, Jesus brought the new revelation, and then Allah also chose the Apostles to help. They became the teachers. As also confirmed in the Quran.
Likewise in Islam, Muhammad revealed the Book, and then those who were well-grounded in knowledge chosen by God to explain Quran.
just as a Prophet would tell, God chosen Him as Prophet, a well-grounded in Knowldeg would have done. So, did Sadigh.
ibni khatir did not claim., simply because he was not chosen by God.

Tell you what. You start your own thread and use Imam Sadiq as your preferred tafsir. Happy?

I am not biased towards anyone, Sadigh or anyone. I am discussing Islam Logically, according to its Sources.

Tell you what. You choose a verse from Quran which is difficult to understand, and bring a Tafseer from Ibni Khateer, or your own personal Tafseer. I will bring the explanation from those who claimed to be well-grounded in knowledge. And we compare their knowledge, and judge fairly. How's that?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It seems that like some other Muslims, you seem overly concerned with excluding other Muslims from Islam.
I don't do that, but good luck in your endeavours.

I simply quoted Hadith of Muhammad. That's what your Prophet said, not me. I'm sorry didn't mean to make you feel bad.

 

[rational experiences]

We all used to be Muslim, according to Islam.
Would it make a difference?

The historic advice we all needed to cover our bare naked tribal human bodies with cloth.

Garden burning tree bush life oxygen gone history. Eviction out of healthy DNA.

From burning irradiation effect of falling stone.

Felled disintegrated mountains at feet angel cloud burning gases came to ground attacking temples on mount.

Wise man given visions by heavenly so feedback voice image in attacks of causes.

Man scientist pyramid theist reinvented dusts. Began thesis ground chemistry dusts ended effect.

Visionary advice science after ice age advised choice.

 

[stevecanuck]

Canon vs cannon. The one with two N's is the big gun and the other is general rule or principle/the body of holy scripture in a religion.

Canons have probably caused more death and destruction than cannons.

 

[rational experiences]

Man human scientist designer inventor AI machines bombs rockets weapons of metal life's destroyer the fake lying prostelyzing God self not any God.

Just thinks he is by the weapons he invents.

 

[Clara Tea]

As the last couple of AAI threads seemed to be just intended for preaching dogma with no attempt at actually informing, discussing or responding to questions in good faith, I thought I'd start one where there will be no agenda other than to present what the Quran, sunnah and classical tafsir actually say on an issue. No sectarianism. No opinions (apart from those of authoritative classical scholars). Just the 'facts', ma'am.

And I promise not to accuse anyone of hate or bashing or ignorance if they don't agree with my replies. And I won't put anyone on ignore if I can't come up with an answer.

Most, but not all, religions want to spread the good word of God to all. This means that they want to convince others to join their religion. But, to what

As the last couple of AAI threads seemed to be just intended for preaching dogma with no attempt at actually informing, discussing or responding to questions in good faith, I thought I'd start one where there will be no agenda other than to present what the Quran, sunnah and classical tafsir actually say on an issue. No sectarianism. No opinions (apart from those of authoritative classical scholars). Just the 'facts', ma'am.

And I promise not to accuse anyone of hate or bashing or ignorance if they don't agree with my replies. And I won't put anyone on ignore if I can't come up with an answer.

"No opinions (apart from those of authoritative classical scholars). Aren't those also called "believers?"

1. Religions only accept opinions from believers.

2. Believers get so bogged down in scriptures, that they fail to see the harm that they do.

2a. Religious Right's candidate (W. Bush) had torture camps.

2b. Islamics bombed the World Trade Center.

The purpose of a Religious Forum is to discuss our religion with the religions of others. It is good to find the points of commonality (while not being bombed).

 

[Clara Tea]

Yes.
Try me.

Thank you for offering to answer any question about Islam.

What is the meaning of life and the universe? Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy said that after programming the world's most complex computer to find that answer, and after working on it for billions of years, the answer was......42.

 

[Clara Tea]

We all used to be Muslim, according to Islam.
Would it make a difference?

The Muslim religion, like the Christian religion, is a spin-off of the Jewish religion. Essentially, all Christians and Muslims are Jewish (with slight modifications and much hatred).

Delta variant blamed for most COVID-19 cases in Palestine

August 15, 2021 article: Palestine's Health Ministry accused the United States and Israel of making Covid to frame China and Russia. (source: above). With such blatant antisemitism and falsehoods, how can the world trust anything that they say? Lying for God is still lying. Muslims use propaganda to rally terrorists (this is why their followers were willing to die while crashing into the World Trade Center). Israel has been taking the brunt of such lies. When a religion motivates people to lie and bear false witness, and encourages acts of terrorism, one must protest.

 

[rational experiences]

O earths nature natural no religion just families.

Two of each families parent. Animals and humans.

O on planet earth. We named the stone ark owning all laws the planet.

Living spiritually inside of the heavens.

The only story that is real.

Religion.... my story is the one.

No it's not actually.

 

[stevecanuck]

Maybe so, but I don't accept that.



It might to me. I think if I wish to gain an understanding of Islam, a Muslim would be an obvious source to go to. Non-Muslim sources might also be of interest, but getting it from the "horse's mouth" would I think be good.

So...were you?

My experience has been that asking Muslims about Islam often gets you a sanitized lie. For example, the Canadian Council of Imams released a declaration that was basically a list of lies (CCI Declaration – CCI). I selected one as an example:

- "The best Muslim is one....who avoids harming others with his/her hand or tongue".

This is an outright lie. Hadiths are the source of this statement, and as shown below, the real wording contains a significant difference:

- Bukhari, Volume: 1, Book Number: 2, Hadith Number: 9, Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:
The Prophet said, "A Muslim is the one who avoids harming Muslims with his tongue and hands".

- Bukhari, Volume: 1, Book Number: 2, Hadith Number: 10, Narrated Abu Musa:
Some people asked Allah's Apostle, "Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good Muslim)?". He replied, "One who avoids harming the Muslims with his tongue and hands."