Ask a Mormon! (Part Two)

[Reverend Rick]

St. Luke 23:34

Then said Jesus, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".

It would not make sense to speak out loud to yourself. Also, what was the reason Jesus made this statement? Was he not worried about the wrath of his father?

 

[FFH]

St. Luke 23:34

Then said Jesus, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".

It would not make sense to speak out loud to yourself. Also, what was the reason Jesus made this statement? Was he not worried about the wrath of his father?

From what I understand Jesus was speaking of the Roman soldiers who were in charge of setting up the cross and nailing him to it...

Jesus could have also been speaking in much broader terms, knowing that not even his own disciples really understood who He really was...

Peter knew that Jesus was the Son of God, but I don't think the others really understood that, until later, after the crucifixion.

He was crucified for blasphemy, which many thought a legitimate punishment for the crime...

The reason Christ may have voiced this thought out loud, was so that we would understand the fact that many did not know what they were doing, when they agreed, or voiced their opinion, that Jesus should be crucified, but were only agreeing to, and therefore helping to carry out, the punishment necessary for the crime, according to Old Testament law and Roman forms of punishment....

 

[FFH]

Was he not worried about the wrath of his father?

God the Father already knew who was worthy of forgivenes and who was not. Jesus did not need necessarily need to ask the Father for forgiveness, on their behalf.

Jesus voiced his thoughts, which were directed at the Father, so we would also understand that Jesus held no ill will toward any man, and desired that all would be forgiven of their crimes, through His sacrifice, especially those who do not knowingly sin against Him, but are truly innocent or blinded by the evil men of this world...

 

[Reverend Rick]

OK, ask a Mormon time. Do you believe someone can be saved on their death bed and get right with the lord just before they die?

I believe you are going to say no. What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Jesus told him he would see heaven with him and I am quite sure he was not baptised. I understand you all baptise people who have been dead for a long time in the LDS church. Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[Comprehend]

OK, ask a Mormon time. Do you believe someone can be saved on their death bed and get right with the lord just before they die?

When you say "saved" you mean go to heaven right? LDS believe that almost everyone is going to heaven anyway so the question doesn't make much sense from an LDS perspective.

If you simply mean can one repent of their sins on their deathbed? I can imagine situations where that is possible although it isn't an ideal situation.

I believe you are going to say no. What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Jesus told him he would see heaven with him and I am quite sure he was not baptised. I understand you all baptise people who have been dead for a long time in the LDS church. Any comments would be appreciated.

Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise not Heaven. LDS doctrine teaches that once a person dies, they will go to one of two places, spirit prison or paradise.

We do believe baptism to be a necessary component for salvation. This is the "narrow gate" we must pass through in order to proceed.

 

[FFH]

OK, ask a Mormon time. Do you believe someone can be saved on their death bed and get right with the lord just before they die?

We will be judged according to the deeds done while in the body...

It all depends on what sort of "deeds" were done throughout a person's life, and how sincere the repentance was, and what sort of knowledge he/she had/has of Christ's gospel...

I believe you are going to say no.

We believe in eternal progression towards becoming like God. He is a merciful God and will do all in his power to "save" as many as possible, in his kingdom, who are willing to be "saved" in his kingdom..

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Jesus told him he would see heaven with him and I am quite sure he was not baptised.

Baptism is obviously not necessary, in order to enter into "paradise"...

Jesus Christ will accept all the sincere in heart and those who believe in him into paradise...

Luke 23: 43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

....but it is necessary that one be baptised, in order to enter into the kingdom of God/heaven/Celestial kingdom, and by one having the proper authority (Aaronic priesthood)...

I understand you all baptise people who have been dead for a long time in the LDS church. Any comments would be appreciated.

"Baptism by immersion, for the remission of sins", by one having the proper authority (Aaronic priesthood), is absolutely necessary, in order to move from paradise, into the kingdom of God/heaven/Celestial kingdom...where God the Father and the Son dwell...

Other ordinances such as "the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost" by one having the proper authority (Melchizedek priesthood) is absolutely neceassary, and are also performed on behalf of every deceased individual the LDS church can find records for...including our own relatives, who may never have had these necessary saving ordinances performed...

Other saving ordinances, are also performed, for the living and the deceased, such as marriages and sealings of families together forever...

 

[joeboonda]

HI, thank you all for answering my questions about whether there is one God or more than one. I cannot possibly answer everything, especially Aqualung's posts, but I thank you for sharing what you believe with me. I guess we interpret the Bible very differently from one another and we will have to simply agree to disagree. Thank you again for sharing with me, you are very kind. Perhaps we may discuss these scriptures on another thread sometime, (I'm not able to get on the forums much except for a bit mostly on the weekends.)
Thank-you all,
Mike

 

[joeboonda]

Long time no see, Mike. I have just a couple of questions for you, seeing as I've done my best to answer yours.

To whom do you believe the following scriptures are comparing God?

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (Exodus 15:11)

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. (Exodus 18:11)

What do you believe the following scripture means when it says that God is "God of gods"? Who are the "gods" He is God of?

For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward. (Deut. 10:17)

"They" is a plural pronoun, Mike. Were three divine beings speaking to each other or was one divine being talking to himself?

We would agree fully with that. But do you believe that Jesus submitted to himself or to another divine being?

It does... except in the verses I mentioned.

Hi, Katzpur I hope you are doing well these days. I felt I should give an answer to you since, as you said you do your best to answer mine. I have to look at these phrases, "among the gods" "greater than all gods"," God of gods", in light of the many verses that say that God is one God and there are no others beside Him. These 'gods' are not capitalized I noticed first off. Also, people turned from the one true God and began worshipping other 'gods' carved of wood and stone, etc., animals, the sun, moon, (the creation rather than the creator), which Paul says that they are not gods, for there is but one God, that these are demons. Again in light of the many, many verses that say that there is only one God, I do not believe there is any other(s). In regards to the questions on Jesus, I believe Jesus is one of the three persons making up one tri-une God. They can converse, and Jesus could submit to the Father. I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, begotten long before He came to earth, having made the heavens and the earth, (in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.)
I hope that clarifies somewhat what I believe, I see where you are coming from about there being many gods, and I respect your beliefs, although I don't share them. I hope what I have posted is acceptable (as far as being respectful). Thanks again for your time and interest in sharing with me, you are very thoughtful and diligent in teaching others about your faith, I have always admired that.
Thanks again,
Mike

 

[Katzpur]

aqualung, you are WAAAAAAAYY more patient than I am. I thought I was going out of my way to actually post scriptures... you need an award for what you just posted.

Yeah, I've got to admit that those last few posts blew me away. :clap

 

[Katzpur]

I have to look at these phrases, "among the gods" "greater than all gods"," God of gods", in light of the many verses that say that God is one God and there are no others beside Him. These 'gods' are not capitalized I noticed first off. Also, people turned from the one true God and began worshipping other 'gods' carved of wood and stone, etc., animals, the sun, moon, (the creation rather than the creator), which Paul says that they are not gods, for there is but one God, that these are demons.

Mike, since this is not a debate forum, I hesitate to comment on what you just said. Hopefully, you will see my thoughts as an attempt to clarify our belief and not to encourage a debate on this particular thread.

As you pointed out, "gods" is not capitalized. This is a significant point. The only time you will ever see "God" with a capital "G" in the Bible is when it is referring to the God both you and I worship. Also, you will never see the word "Gods" (plural and also capitalized) as there is only one "God." I think it would be a real stretch to say that all references to "gods" (plural and lower-case 'g') are to demons. If God is the "God of gods," that would mean that He is the God of demons. Surely you don't believe that. We don't claim to know who or what the Bible is referring to when it uses the word "gods," but we don't just pretend that those verses simply aren't there. We recognize that there must be beings that are deemed to be divine entities of some sort, because God is said to be their God as well as ours. He is said to be the greatest among them. As to what constitutes a "false god," we could probably have an interesting discussion. We Latter-day Saints would say that any god other than our God is a "false god" to us. Such beings, whoever they may be, do not have any influence on our lives. They cannot answer our prayers. They do not merit our worship in any way. They simply exist, that is, if you believe what the Bible says. What the Bible does not say -- or even vaguely imply -- is that they are demons. Remember, Paul's statement refers to "gods" both in Heaven and on the Earth. Surely, there are no demons in Heaven.

 

[Katzpur]

OK, ask a Mormon time. Do you believe someone can be saved on their death bed and get right with the lord just before they die?

I believe you are going to say no. What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Jesus told him he would see heaven with him and I am quite sure he was not baptised. I understand you all baptise people who have been dead for a long time in the LDS church. Any comments would be appreciated.

Oh, why do I always see these posts right when I have to leave!!!!! I want to put in my two cents worth on this, Rick (big surprise, huh?), but it will have to wait until after I get back from Church. Just one quick thought, though, for now...

Jesus said nothing to the thief on the cross about seeing him in Heaven. He said He would see him in Paradise. On Easter morning, He told Mary that He had not yet returned to Heaven, so clearly Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same.

More later.

 

[Aqualung]

aqualung, you are WAAAAAAAYY more patient than I am. I thought I was going out of my way to actually post scriptures... you need an award for what you just posted.

Well, it looks harder than it was. This is just such a common place argument that over time I have accrued a txt file with all these in it.

 

[Katzpur]

...and those I mentioned...

Actually, I think that both you and Aqualung were addressing the doctrine of the Trinity while I was addressing the doctrine of the plurality of gods. Both of you did an excellent job of showing (scripturally) how the Father and the Son are "one" but not "physically one." I was thinking more along the lines of the other "gods" mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Katzpur]

OK, ask a Mormon time. Do you believe someone can be saved on their death bed and get right with the lord just before they die?

That all depends. We don't believe in what is commonly referred to as "deathbed repentence." The idea that someone can lead a willfully sinful life and then, at the moment of death, in some sort of a state of panic, profess a belief that Jesus' sacrifice will atone for all of his sins is hardly Biblical.

I believe you are going to say no. What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Jesus told him he would see heaven with him and I am quite sure he was not baptised.

I agree that it would be a safe bet that he was not baptized, although there is no way of knowing for sure. I can guarantee that there are a heck of a lot of inmates on death row today who were baptized. The point, really, is that Christ is in a position to see into each of our hearts. He knew what kind of a life the thief had led and what the circumstances were surrounding his apparent last-minute conversion. Had the thief not been truly repentant, I doubt very much that Christ would have extended His forgiveness quite as readily as He did. On the flip side, He did ask that His Father forgive those who crucified Him. Would He have even made that request if He knew that this was an impossiblility?

I understand you all baptise people who have been dead for a long time in the LDS church. Any comments would be appreciated.

How about if I resurrect an old thread I started on the subject of proxy baptism. That should answer your questions and will give others who weren't around at the time the thread was active the chance to post their questions, too. Here it is: Baptizing the Dead?

 

[nutshell]

Here's a question:

Do you believe the strict "codes" we live by (such as the Word of Wisdom) lead us to indulge in other areas or ways that are not healthy for us?

 

[Katzpur]

Here's a question:

Do you believe the strict "codes" we live by (such as the Word of Wisdom) lead us to indulge in other areas or ways that are not healthy for us?

I do. But even more than that, I feel that we too often think of obedience to the Word of Wisdom as a definition of a "good Mormon." While I think it's an important commandment, it's a "word of wisdom" concerning how we should care for our bodies. It's not "the gospel of Jesus Christ." The president of the company I work for is SOOOO proud that, "never has a drop of alcohol touched my lips," and yet he is one of the most self-serving, hypocritical, dishonest Latter-day Saints I have ever known. In my own personal opinion, God has less of a problem with someone who has an occasional glass of wine than He has with someone who would cheat his customers. I'm not saying it has to be an either/or situation, but I do think that sometimes we put our priorities in the wrong place.

 

[FFH]

Here's a question:

Do you believe the strict "codes" we live by (such as the Word of Wisdom) lead us to indulge in other areas or ways that are not healthy for us?

No, ice cream is still healthier than beer and cigarettes.

Try dried papaya, cherries, pineapple, appricots, mangos, etc. they are better than candy, especially the cherries, a little pricey but well worth it..

Whole wheat, peanut butter and honey or healthy jam sandwiches give the most long lasting energy...

Try peanuts, almonds, cashews with honey and real butter melted and cooked in a pan..

Almond butter can be purchased at most health food stores and is not much more than peanut butter and tastes a lot better...

Walmart supercenters and grocery stores sell an awesome chocolate soy milk for 2.28 a quart, that's a dollar cheaper than the Silk soy milk brand...

They also sell a black licorice that is full of molasses and wheat, which is awesome and tastes great. Just look for the other brand next to the Vine brand licorice...

It's possible to indulge in things like chocolate if you buy the right stuff or make your own with cocoa, real butter, milk and honey...

Sugar is more addicting than cocaine, or so they say, but not near as deadly or destructive of course...

As far as avoiding other vices...well beer, cigarettes, drugs, etc. would only increase the chances of indulging in more serious things...

 

[nutshell]

No, ice cream is still healthier than beer and cigarettes.

Try dried papaya, cherries, pineapple, appricots, mangos, etc. they are better than candy, especially the cherries, a little pricey but well worth it..

Whole wheat, peanut butter and honey or healthy jam sandwiches give the most long lasting energy...

Try peanuts, almonds, cashews with honey and real butter melted and cooked in a pan..

Almond butter can be purchased at most health food stores and is not much more than peanut butter and tastes a lot better...

Walmart supercenters and grocery stores sell an awesome chocolate soy milk for 2.28 a quart, that's a dollar cheaper than the Silk soy milk brand...

They also sell a black licorice that is full of molasses and wheat, which is awesome and tastes great. Just look for the other brand next to the Vine brand licorice...

It's possible to indulge in things like chocolate if you buy the right stuff or make your own with cocoa, real butter, milk and honey...

Sugar is more addicting than cocaine, or so they say, but not near as deadly or destructive of course...

As far as avoiding other vices...well beer, cigarettes, drugs, etc. would only increase the chances of indulging in more serious things...

You lost me at black licorce is awesome and tastes great.

 

[joeboonda]

Mike, since this is not a debate forum, I hesitate to comment on what you just said. Hopefully, you will see my thoughts as an attempt to clarify our belief and not to encourage a debate on this particular thread.

As you pointed out, "gods" is not capitalized. This is a significant point. The only time you will ever see "God" with a capital "G" in the Bible is when it is referring to the God both you and I worship. Also, you will never see the word "Gods" (plural and also capitalized) as there is only one "God." I think it would be a real stretch to say that all references to "gods" (plural and lower-case 'g') are to demons. If God is the "God of gods," that would mean that He is the God of demons. Surely you don't believe that. We don't claim to know who or what the Bible is referring to when it uses the word "gods," but we don't just pretend that those verses simply aren't there. We recognize that there must be beings that are deemed to be divine entities of some sort, because God is said to be their God as well as ours. He is said to be the greatest among them. As to what constitutes a "false god," we could probably have an interesting discussion. We Latter-day Saints would say that any god other than our God is a "false god" to us. Such beings, whoever they may be, do not have any influence on our lives. They cannot answer our prayers. They do not merit our worship in any way. They simply exist, that is, if you believe what the Bible says. What the Bible does not say -- or even vaguely imply -- is that they are demons. Remember, Paul's statement refers to "gods" both in Heaven and on the Earth. Surely, there are no demons in Heaven.

Hi Katzpur, thanks for posting! No, I definetely am not interested in debating in here, just getting feedback is all. I guess what I was referring to concerning other gods, is that the Bible seems to indicate that the gods of the nations around Israel, (and nations today), are referred to as idols, like in Chronicles below, and even as devils as in I Corinthians below. These are definetely false gods, not really gods at all, and sometimes, at least, even devils. God clearly states as in Isaiah below, that before Him no god was formed nor will there be after Him, and that there is no other God but God, He knows of no other. So, my belief is just that, that there is only one God and no others except false gods, idols, and devils. The numerous explicit statements of God, that there are no other gods except for God, none before, none after, is a solid foundation for my beliefs on that matter, even though there are verses that seem contradict that, I don't think they do. That is my interpretation, although I respect the views of others on the subject. Again, thank-you for clarifying your beliefs, it is always nice to learn more about each other. I hope my post didn't sound 'debatish', I just wanted to clarify my beliefs, too. Well, I gotta go, my children have dibs on the computer during the week mostly, and I just got off work, wore out!
I pray all is well with you and your family. Hopefully I will be able to get on the forums some more soon, although I have to work 6 days (Saturday) this week.
Thanks again,
Mike

1. 1 Chronicles 16:25
   For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
2. For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
3. I Cor. 10
4. 
   19What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
5. Isaiah 43:10
   "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
   Isaiah 44:8
   Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

 

[Comprehend]

Here's a question:

Do you believe the strict "codes" we live by (such as the Word of Wisdom) lead us to indulge in other areas or ways that are not healthy for us?

I don't understand the question, all of the commandments are "strict codes", we aren't supposed to violate any of them. We aren't supposed to do a long list of things, and we are supposed to do another long list of things.

what am I missing?