Ask a Mormon! (Part Two)

[Comprehend]

oh yeah, and how do you deal with these scriptures as well?

Matt. 20: 23not mine to give, but . . . of my Father. Matt. 26: 39not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matt. 28: 19(3 Ne. 11: 25) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Luke 1: 32called the Son of the Highest. Luke 3: 22Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove. John 5: 19Son can do nothing . . . but what he seeth the Father do. John 8: 18Father that sent me beareth witness of me. John 10: 30I and my Father are one. John 10: 38believe the works . . . that the Father is in me. John 12: 28a voice from heaven, saying, I have . . . glorified it. John 14: 28my Father is greater than I. John 17: 3that they might know thee the only true God. John 17: 21(D&C 35: 2) That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me. John 20: 17I ascend unto my Father, and your Father. Acts 2: 33being by the right hand of God exalted. Acts 7: 55saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 17: 29not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold. Rom. 1: 20even his eternal power and Godhead. 1 Cor. 8: 6to us there is but one God. 2 Cor. 4: 4Christ, who is the image of God. Eph. 3: 14I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord. Col. 1: 15image of the invisible God, the firstborn. Col. 2: 9dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Heb. 1: 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.

 

[Comprehend]

Hello againh Joe. It's nice too see you really have come around and love us so much. If you have noticed. This is a DIR forum, and no debating will be allowed and it needs to stay respectful. I'm not say8ing this post wasn't, but I am just reiterating the point.

We've gone over this a bunch with you, but apparently it's not to your satisfaction, so we'll go over it again, I suppose.

hey, don't kick him out yet. I want to hear him try to explain all the scriptures I gave him. He does believe in ALL of the bible and not just the single verse he quoted I hope.

I am sure he has a great explanation for all the scriptures I gave him since he seems to be such a biblical scholar and all...

I am particularly excited to hear what the Hebrew word "elohim" means to him...

 

[joeboonda]

Hi, I haven't talked with you all in a long time, I pray you are doing well. You answered my question about whether there is one God and none beside Him, or more than one. Thanks for answering my question, enjoy your weekend.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[joeboonda]

Hi, again, I was somewhat surprised that you all believe there is more than one God. Thank-you for answering truthfully my question. Comprehend, I enjoyed your answers, I suspected but was not completely sure you all would come right out and say there is more than one God. Thank-you for that. I accept all the verses you mentioned, mostly I feel they were the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit speaking to each other, "let us make man in our own image", that sort of thing, Jesus did become a man and submitted to God to pay for our sins, yet He remained still fully God. Anyway, back to the main subject; I believe the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God. Here are the verses that say this, at least to me and other Christians:
I hope these will clarify my view, thank-you.

(Forgive me for pasting, its a lot of scripture, but does represent my belief, too.)


The one God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Passages that say there is only one God:

1. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh. " Genesis 2:24
2. "there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
3. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
4. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
5. "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
   [*]"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
6. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
7. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
8. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
   [*]"You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
9. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
   [*]"You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
10. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
    [*]"You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
11. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
12. "‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
13. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
14. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
15. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
16. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
17. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
18. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
    [*]"And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9
19. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24
    [*]"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one [hen] flesh"? " Matthew 19:5
20. "But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8
21. "Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10
22. ""The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; " Mark 12:29
    [*]"you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?" John 5:44
    [*]"I and the Father are one [hen]." John 10:30
    [*]"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God" John 17:3
23. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one[hen]" John 17:22
    [*]"since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30
    [*]"to the only [monos] wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27
    [*]"there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4
    [*]"yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6
    [*]"Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20
    [*]"There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6
    [*]"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God" 1 Timothy 1:17
24. "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16
    [*]"For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
    [*]"You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19
25. "For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4
    [*]"the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 25

By Steve Rudd​

 

[Aqualung]

It's interesting that you use those scriptures, because a lot of those are ones that I would use to prove that God is not a trinity. The differences of interpretation just go to show how necessary it was for Christ to reveal the Book of Mormon and to reestablish profets in the land.

 

[nutshell]

I believe there is only one God the Father.

 

[Bishka]

Hi, again, I was somewhat surprised that you all believe there is more than one God.

Funny enough, none of us said that. You put words in our mouths.......Also, you could say that this rhetoric came from a known anti-mormon website. (http://www.bible.ca/bible.htm). How about you take something from the official website of the LDS Church, and we can discuss what you find there instead of 'trying to prove us wrong' through anti-mormon rhetoric?!?

 

[Comprehend]

Hi, again, I was somewhat surprised that you all believe there is more than one God. Thank-you for answering truthfully my question. Comprehend, I enjoyed your answers, I suspected but was not completely sure you all would come right out and say there is more than one God. Thank-you for that. I accept all the verses you mentioned, mostly I feel they were the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit speaking to each other, "let us make man in our own image", that sort of thing, Jesus did become a man and submitted to God to pay for our sins, yet He remained still fully God. Anyway, back to the main subject; I believe the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God. Here are the verses that say this, at least to me and other Christians:
I hope these will clarify my view, thank-you.

(Forgive me for pasting, its a lot of scripture, but does represent my belief, too.)

sooo..... you aren't actually going to respond to the scriptures I gave you? figures... then you would have to say the the bible is self contradictory in order to hold the view you do...:beach:

 

[Feathers in Hair]

MOD POST

Please remember, as has already been pointed out by another member, that this thread is in the discussion subforum. Any posts attempting to debate with others or with the members of a faith will be deleted, and if it continues, will result in warnings.

Thank you for remembering this.
/Mod Post.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you believe the Bible teaches there is only one God?

We believe, as Paul taught, that "though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth... to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

If so, do you consider the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be one God or three separate gods as Joseph Smith claimed?

Here is what the Book of Mormon says. This is what we believe:

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.

Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Since the Bible teaches there is only one God, how can there be more than one in Mormonism?

Since the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach exactly the same thing about God, it would be impossible for us to answer your question any more clearly than we already have.

Are you going to be a 'god', too? I thought there was only one, perhaps you can clear up the confusion for me?

The Bible teaches that we, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. (See Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21]

To the Latter-day Saints, as to the early Christians, these scriptures mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity? Is the issue here that you believe God to be incapable of elevating man to a higher station, or is it that you see Him as being threatened by our becoming like Him?

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, again, I was somewhat surprised that you all believe there is more than one God.

Long time no see, Mike. I have just a couple of questions for you, seeing as I've done my best to answer yours.

To whom do you believe the following scriptures are comparing God?

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (Exodus 15:11)

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. (Exodus 18:11)

What do you believe the following scripture means when it says that God is "God of gods"? Who are the "gods" He is God of?

For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward. (Deut. 10:17)

I accept all the verses you mentioned, mostly I feel they were the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit speaking to each other, "let us make man in our own image", that sort of thing,

"They" is a plural pronoun, Mike. Were three divine beings speaking to each other or was one divine being talking to himself?

Jesus did become a man and submitted to God to pay for our sins, yet He remained still fully God.

We would agree fully with that. But do you believe that Jesus submitted to himself or to another divine being?

Anyway, back to the main subject; I believe the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God.

It does... except in the verses I mentioned.

 

[Comprehend]

It does... except in the verses I mentioned.

...and those I mentioned...

 

[Aqualung]

...and those I mentioned...

And these ones I'll mention:

Let us make man in our image

Our, being a first person plural pronoun.

man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Again, note the plurality of the pronoun.

And lo, a voice from Heaven saying, Behold, This is my son, in whom I am well pleased.

Not only is the voice coming from heaven (ie, not where Christ is) but it is also expressing third person pleasure in Christ. I don't know why Christ would feel the need to pretend that somebody else was pleased in him (making is seem like his voice was coming from somewhere else). Do you think he was mistreated as a boy, so now he has to lie for attention?

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command these stones to be made bread.

Even Satan admitted that Christ was the Son of God, not God himself. He could have said, "If thou be God..." but instead he decided to add a couple more words (what a waste of time!) to say he was the Son of God. Why? They are two seperate beings.

And saith unto him, If thou be the Song of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest any thime thou dash thy foot against stone.

Again, Satan, the very Devil, again recognizing Christ as the Son of God.

Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

None of the people who saw his miracles doubted that Christ was the Son of God, because the scriptures teach that The Father will send his son as a sacrafice for the sins of the world, NOT that the Father himself will come down.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Key word there is SENT. That is a third person verb. It indicates that somebody outside of Christ is doing the sending. If Christ IS the Father, there would be nobody to do the sending, as it is a thrid person verb.

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Does the Father lie? Then why would he manifest unto Peter that Christ is the SON of God? Does Christ mislead? Then why would not tell one of his twelve that he was wrong when he said the SON of God? ANSWER: Because Christ is the Son of God.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The Son shall come in the glory of his Father, not in his own glory. Why did it not say, in his own glory? Because the Father and the Son are seperate. It also shows that Christ does not do things in his own glory, but in the glory of his Father, under the direction of his Father.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The Father confirms that The Son IS his son. This is MY beloved son. Again, why would Christ trick people into thinking that some other person was well pleased in him? Was he simply some charlatan, tricking people into following him? Was he abused as a kid, and thinks the only way people will like him is if he claims The Father is well pleased in him? If he IS The Father, why this trickery?

to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but is is shall be given to them for who m it is prepared of my Father.

If the Father IS the son, how come something that belongs to the father doesn't also belong to the son? Again, Jesus is made to be quite a wiley adversary.

But of that day and hour, knoweth no man, no, not th eangels of heaven, but my Father only.

The Father is the only one who knows when the world shall pass away. If Christ IS the Father, it would seem that Christ would know of the day and hour, too. Yet he doesn't. His Father only knows of it.

Not as I will, but as thou wilt.

How does one person have to seperate wills, and talk to himself in the second person? Does he have a split personality?

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Not only does Christ confirm the high priest's question if he be the Son of God, but adds more information to that.

And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Because Christ never claimed to actually BE God, nobody used that information against him. Christ never said he was the Father, so why would anybody say, "If thou be God..."? That would certianly be a more airtight insult, yet they didn't use it. Why?

He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

This confirms what I said with regards to the previous verse. Christ only ever claimed to be the SON of God, not God himself.

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Again, that's the sort of thing God himself would do. But because Christ only taught that he was the SON of God, the centurions KNEW that Christ truly was the Son of God.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Given by whom? Why, the only being greater than he, The Father himself. Again, that seems rather weasely and atention-grabbing to give himself a gift, and then brag about it.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Why baptise them in the name of all three if they are all three one and the same? Why not just say, "baptise them in the name of God"? Because they are not one and the same, so it's important to mention all three.

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God'

It's interesting that these words start the Gospel of Mark. Mark must have thought it was important to know (a) who this was about (Christ) and (b) who Christ was (the Son of God) before starting in on any history or miracles or suchlike.

And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

It's almost the same as in Matthew, except this time it's a second person description. But none of the gospels give a first person account. "I am my beloved son, and well pleased in myself." None of the writers though Christ was the same Person as te Father.

And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

A sperate being, that is, drove him into the wilderness. Christ himself did not just take to the wilderness, but was driven by the Spirit.

And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou are the Son of God. And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

He did not correct the unclean spirits. He told them to keep the knowledge of who he was a secret. What should he care if they told if it were not true, anyway? After all, they were unclean spirits. But they were right, and he didn't want people to know yet. They were RIGHT that Christ was the Son of God.

And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, taht thou torment me not.

The spirit in the man recognized that (a) Christ was the Son of God; (b) that Christ, as such, could torment him; and (c) that Christ was NOT God, so he would have to adjure to God himself to command Christ to not torment him (ie, Christ is lower than God, but above the demon).

And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Again, a voice very distinct and seperate from Christ affirmed that Christ was at least somebody's son. I assume that voice belonged to God, rather than to Joseph, considering that it came from a cloud and all.

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is almost the same thing as in Matthew, except the affirmation, by Christ himself, that Jesus was the Son of God, is a million times clearer.

 

[Aqualung]

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David.

Notice, the Lord God will be giving Christ something. Again, if Christ WERE God, why would he give himself something like that? Wouldn't he already have it? If I try to give myself this pencil, I will necessarily have to have it in order to give it. So why give in the first place, since I already have it? It's the same with Christ. The fact that The Lord God is giving Christ something is an exceptionally good indication that Christ is NOT The Lord God.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

How can he increase in favour with himself, and why would such a thing be written about? It makes infinitely more sense to regard God as seperate from Christ.

The Holy Ghost descended in bodily shape like a dove

Once again, Why? If Christ is the Holy ghost, why did the Holy Ghost descend upon him? How is it possible for one thing to descend upon itself? Does the Bible lie when it says that the Holy Ghost descended upon him?

And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

Satan is trying to tempt Christ into proving that he is the Son of God, not God himself. Why not? Because how can you prove a false thing? If he said "If thou be God" and tried to get Christ to prove his status as such, Christ would have said, "But I'm not, so you're dumb." But Satan is trying to get Christ to prove his real nature, that nature being the Son of God.

And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

It's the same situation as before.

And devils came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

So the devils spake something, and they were RIGHT. Christ told them not to speak of it, because they were RIGHT.

And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Again, Christ verifies that he was sent, that there is one greater than he who can command Christ to go places.

When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I do do with thee, Jesus thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

The demon KNEW who Christ was, and feared. He didn't fear that he was God. He feared that he was the Son of God.

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

...and yet another gospel confirms the sonship of Christ, and the distinctness of Christ and The Father.

All things are dilvered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

The Father delivers things to Christ. In fact, all that Christ has was given him of the Father. Christ is not The Father, or why would he credit the Father for giving him everything that he has?

And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Christ continually taught that he was the chosen of God, not God himself, and this is the claim that others rediculed him with.

 

[Aqualung]

In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was with God. You can't be with yourself.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John confirms what he mentioned in verse 1 - Christ is not the Father. His glory is that of the Only Begotten of the Father, but not of the Father himself.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

No man hath seen the Father. But men saw Christ, didn't they? The Only Begotten of The Father is the closest men will get to seeing The Father, because they Father and the Son are two different beings. If the Father WAS the Son, that statement would be a lie.

And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode on him.

Christ is not the spirt. He can't be at one time both himself, standing in the water, and a dove upon his own sholder. The dove lay on him as a testament to their seperateness in body.

And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John, even though you claim that when he said "And the Word was God" he meant they were one and the same being, bares record that they are in fact two seperate beings, the one being the Son of the Other.

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under a fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

Notice Christ said "believest thou", not "believest thou incorrectly", or "because I said unto thee, I saw thee under a fig tree, you came to the wrong conclusion". He verified Christ's position as Son of God, not God himself.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Christ belonged to God. He was God's son. God gave Christ; Christ did not give himself.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

This states that God is not Christ, because, once again, God is seen sending Christ things. It also shows that God is not the HOly Ghost, because the Spirit is what God gives.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Once again, you can either read this verse to mean that Christ is narcisistic, likes to masturbate, or that Christ and the Father are two seperate beings.

Therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these that ye may marvel.

The Jews were taught, by Christ, that Christ was the Son of God, not God himself. Then, John continues by saying that Christ will not do anything until he sees the Father do it. If they were one and the same, it would be like standing in front of a mirror and only doing what you saw your reflection do. You would have to stand perfectly still, because you can't do anything, because your reflection hasn't done anything, because you haven't done anything. If Christ were the Father, and only did things he first saw the Father do, nothing at all would happen. And again, here it is again with the Father loving the Son.

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment to his Son.

Here we are again with The Father giving something to his Son. How does this happen if they are the same?

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given it to the Son to have life in himself.

Here is God giving something to Father again. Not only that, but it says that Christ's very life is due to God. Christ owes EVERYTHING, even his very life, to The Father.

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the works that I do, bear witness of me, that The Fath hath sent me.

Again the Father sends Christ, and the Father gives Christ things. None of these things are things that could or would happen if Christ and the Father were the same being.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Christ is not here in his own name, like one would expect if he and the Father were the same being, but rather he is here in his Father's name, to do his Father's will.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

As seen in other verses, The Father is the one who sent Christ. And here we see that Christ's will is differentiated from that of the Father. If Christ WERE the Father, that would be unnecessary, and impossible.

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateh me, even he shall live by me.

This shows, again, that The Father sent christ, and they are therefore not the same. It also again emphasises that Christ's very life is owed to God.

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

The apostels believed the Christ was the Son of God, not God himself, and Christ didn't correct them.

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

If Christ and The Father were the same (the Father being him who sent Christ), Christ's doctrine WOULD be The Father's doctrine, but Christ emphasizes that he is strictly doing and teaching exactly what the Father tells him (ie, they are one in purpose and intent, but not in body).

But I know him: For I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Again, one cannot send themself anywhere.

Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

Even if in some way you DO beleive that Christ can send himself, this also shows that he is not The Father. If he sent himself, he would not have to go unto him that sent him, because he would already be with said sender, himself. But because the sender is NOT Christ, but the Father, and because Christ is not the Father, he CAN go unto him that sent him.

The Father that sent me beareth witness of me

How does one send himself? Shouldn't Christ say I bear witness of myself on this mission that I go on of my own accord? It wouldn't be quite such a lie then, would it. Or, wait, maybe it's not a lie. Maybe they're two seperate people.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Christ says the Father hasn't deserted him. But why would he even say such a thing if they were the same being? He also says he does only the things which please the Father, which is another testament to them being seperate.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou has both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

Christ teaches that the is the Son of God, not that he is God.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: adn I lay down my life for the sheep.

Once again, Christ emphasizes the distinctness of himself and his Father.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Again, there is Christ receiving stuff from his Father. But not only this, Christ would not have been able to lay down his life and take it up again if it were not through commandment from the Father.

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent to the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Again, Christ teaches that he is the Son of God, not God himself. He also says that he is not pure in himself, but only because the Father sanctifies him.

When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Christ is only glorified through the glory of his Father, but not through his own. If they were te same, this would not be possible.

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Christ didn't correct her and say that he actually WAS God, but left her in the correct knowledge that he was the Son of God.

 

[Aqualung]

Father, glorify thy name. Then came a voice from heaven saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Now, either this verse indicates that Christ was on earth imploring something of his father in heaven, or Christ was on earth, and the Father was on earth, but Christ was confused and didn't realise that he was the father, so he prayed to the father, and somebody in heaven who didn't want to shatter Christ's vision of the Father tricked christ into thinking that the father answered him.

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Christ yet again confirms that he is not the Father. He does the Father's will, not his own. He speaks the Father's words, not his own. He is not the Father, but does His will.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Christ is the means of getting to the Father, not the Father himself.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Again, going unto the Father would be impossible if they weren't different beings. You can't go unto something that is inherently in you and IS you all the time.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

The Son does things for the Father, that the Father may be glorified. NOT: The Son does things for himself that he himself may be glorified.

And I will pray to the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever.

Christ prays to the Father. Why would he pray to himself? What would be the point of that? And, he will send another Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost. Again, the Father will send somebody else, a distinct person, distinct from the Father (or how could he send it?) and from the Son (or why didn't it just say, "he shall give you me again"?).

My Father is greater than I

It is impossible to be greater than oneself. And that's a fact.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Christ admits that his Father is the one to whom he owes everything. A vine cannot grow well on its own, and it will not be good for anything, without the husbandman. Christ owes all to the Father, not to himself.

That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice, Christ does not say that he is the one true God. He says "thee" not "me". Then, he further acknowledges that he is just the one the one true God sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Notice it doesn't say I have glorified myself on the earth, nor I have finished the work which I gave myself to do. Christ is praying to his father, and his prayer makes it very clear that they are seperate and distinct beings.

Now they have known all things whatsoever thou has given me are of thee.

Christ taught that all the things he had were from the Father. Too bad that knowledge is now lost, to where people thing the Father IS the Son, rather than the Father being the one who gave the Son everything, as Christ taught.

That they may be one, as thou, Father, art in me

If the Father and Christ were literally and substantially one, it would be impossible for humans also to be one as they are one. If, on the other hand, they are simply one in purpose, then this is actually meaningful.

The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Christ very clearly taught (so clearly that the generation of vipers could understand) that he was the Son of God, not God himself.

I ascend to my father, and your Father

How does one ascend to himself? It's impossible.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

If you think that the Father and the Son are the same being, then when Christ sends them as The Father has sent the Son this would mean the people are God as well.

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Can't get much clearer than that.

 

[Aqualung]

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

This goes along with John 10:18, confirming that all the Son has, he received from His Father. He did not receive it from himself.

Being by the right hand of God exhalted

Again, there is a clear (bodily and authoritative) distinction drawn between Christ and the Father.

Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both the Lord and Christ.

God hath MADE Jesus. [although, some translations of the Bible state it as cap'n queasy wrote when he wrongly accused me of writing something which I did not write, and of misquoting things on purpose that I did not quote in the first place.]

The God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

This furthers supports the claim that non-trinitarian beliefs are more Biblican than trinitarian ones, as the Apostles themselves claim that Christ is the Son of God, not God himself.

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

AGain, provides more support for non-trinitarian beliefs, because the apostles taught that Christ was the Son of God, and not God himself, and that Christ was sent by God, and did not send himself.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

This goes along nicely with 2:32 and John 10:18.

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savoiur, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The Father exalted Christ; Christ did not exalt himself. The entire point of Christ humbling himself becomes lost if Christ IS the Father. Christ humbled himself, and then God exalted him.

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

So, he was full of the Holy Ghost, yet Christ and The Father were both up in heaven. The Spirit is not The Father, nor is he The Son. The Son was standing on the right hand of The Father. He saw both of them, distinctly seperate.

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Again, the people who were alive at the time Christ was alive confirm that Christ is the Son of God, not God himself.

And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Again, the people who were alive at the time Christ was alive confirm that Christ is the Son of God, not God himself.

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

God chose Christ to be his advocate. Christ and The Father are not the same. Then, he anointed him with the Holy Ghost. If Christ and the Spirit were the same, why would God have to anoint him with the Holy Ghost? That would be like me using pouring water into a lake to make it wet. It already is wet.

Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly.

Goes with 3:26 and 2:32, and John 10:18.

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

God chose Christ to be the judge of mankind. Christ did not take that upon himself, which would be the case if they were the same person.

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

See Acts 10:40, 3:26, and 2:32, and John 10:18

And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

God resurrected Christ to prove that he was the Son of God, not just a man.

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Going along with Acts 10:42, which states that God chose Christ to judge, this one makes it plain that the father is distinct and sperate from the Son.

Whom God hath set forth to be a proptiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through his forbearance of God;

God sent Christ to redeem man. Notice it doens't say that Christ sent himself, because Christ and God are not the same.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We are not reconciled to Christ by his own death, nor are we reconciled to the Father through HIS own death. The person to whom we are reconciled is seperate from the person who reconciled us.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

By sending his Son (not, by coming down himself) he condemned sin in the flesh (not, Christ condemned sin in the flesh).

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Notice the sublte word play. Paul does not say that God spared not his own life, but that God spared not his own Son.

That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, the subtle word play might be hard to pick up on, but read it carefully and you will see it does not say "That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, who is The Lord Jesus Christ".

 

[Aqualung]

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Christ brings the power of God and the wisdom of God, not his own power and his own wisdom.

But to us there is but one God, the FAther, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Notice it doesn't say, one father... who IS the Lord Jesus Christ. Also notice that since all things are BY Christ. This is in the passive voice. That's key.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of a woman is the man; and head of Christ is God.

Can Christ be his own head? No. The fact that God is the head of Christ indicates not only a seperation, but also that Christ is inferior to the father. On the same note, can one be inferior to oneself?

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This not only states that Christ is seperate from God (he will give something back to God) but it also explains the latter half of John 1:1. Christ is currently in possession of the kingdom of God on earth, and he has all rule and all authority and power. He is, therefore God, but he is not the Father.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be in all.

AGain, christ will subdue himself to the Father. Not to himself (if such a thing were even possible).

For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but win him was yea.

Paul, an apostle who lived during the time of Jesus, teaches that Christ is the Son of God, not God himself.

Christ, who is the image of God

NOT: "Christ, who is God".

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

God used Christ, not himself, to reconcile us to Jesus.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And yet again Paul teaches that Christ is the Son of God, and not God himself.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

God sent his son. God did not send himself.

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Christ died on the cross so he could reconcile men to God, not to himself. God and Christ are seperate.

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

God created all things BY Jesus Christ. He did not create all things by himself.

I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord

If Christ is God, who is his father that Paul would bow to him?

Till we all come in the unity of hte faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

Well, Paul is again teaching that Christ is the SON of God, NOT God himself.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

He was in the form of God, but not God himself. He thought it okay to be equal with God, but not to be God himself.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Paul teaches that Christ is not the Father, but that the Father and the Son act seperately.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Christ is in the image of God, but not God himself.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

It pleased the Father, not himself.

And to wait for his Son from heaven, who he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which deleivered us from the wrath to come.

God was up in heaven waiting for Christ to return. God was not down on earth as Christ.

Hath in these days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, by whom he also made the world.

This clearly speaks of Christ and The Father being seperate in three ways - (1) The Father spoke by God, and not by himself; (2) The Father appointed his Son, not himself, heir of all things; (3) God created the world through Christ, not through himself.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

The writer of this epistle also teaches that Christ is the Son of God, not God himself.

Though he were a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered:

Christ was a Son, and he had to learn obedience, but to whom? The One who is greater than he, The Father.

If they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to open shame.

It was the Son of God who was crucified, not God.[/quote]

Without father, whithout mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Christ is again referred to as the Son of God.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

People come to The Father THROUGH Christ. This points to the idea that they are seperate and distinct individuals.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Who is he a mediator to if he IS The Fahter?

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

How could appear in his own presence? and why would this only happen when he got to heaven, if Christ is the Father?

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them to look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Christ was offered. Not Christ offered himself.

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Was forordained, but by who, if Christ and the Father are the same being?

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God gave his son a gift. Christ did not give it to himself.

My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Again, Christ is the advocate to the Father, not the Father himself.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son

Aren't trinitarians denying the existence of one of those simply by saying they are the same?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was maifested, that he might destroy the devil.

John teaches that Christ is the son of God, not God himself.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Again, John teaches the divine sonship of Christ.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might through him.

God did not himself come to earth, but sent his son instead.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Again John teaches that God did not come down, but Christ did.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

God sent his son. He did not go himself.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Trinitarians don't confess that Christ is the SON of God, but rather than Christ IS God. Does this mean God is not in them?

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

You won't overcome the world if you think that Jesus IS God, but only if you think he is the Son of God.

 

[Aqualung]

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Remember that record? This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. To believe that, one must also beleive that Jesus is the Son.


Forums with character limits are such pains with the anti trinity posts.

 

[Comprehend]

aqualung, you are WAAAAAAAYY more patient than I am. I thought I was going out of my way to actually post scriptures... you need an award for what you just posted.