Asexuality in the LGBT Community

[Shadow Wolf]

So what do we tell trans folk that don't plan to transition, or folk that present one way and identify another? Get lost? What are we supposed to do, and I'm not asking to be obtuse?

What's actually being proposed here?

They need their own group. Really. Such as, those of us medically transitioning often are not androgynous as far as our gender expressions go. Lots of us even torment ourselves over things that may be of the sex we were born as, much like how we used to torment ourselves over things of the opposite sex when we were in denial. Often, when we in denial and trying to cope and live as our birth sex, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to the opposite sex. Often, as we're transitioning and other points and stages, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to our birth sex. We often cringe at hearing our birth names, but yet adopt very masculine/feminine expressions (whichever matches our birth sex).
For MtFs (I can't speak much for FtM), police and military service is very common before we accept ourselves. Myself, I did pro-wrestling. And for no reason would I do or use anything feminine. No ear rings, short hair, words and adjectives I carefully selected to avoid saying anything that might sound feminine, even foods were things that I considered through how they are culturally gendered. But eventually I stopped that, accepted myself, and while I didn't do the hyper-feminine thing a lot of us do, I did just admit to myself a few weeks ago that I am a bit of a gearhead, something I've avoided and denied because it is strongly stereotyped as a guy thing (and there really aren't that many women working professionally in car-related fields).
For a MtF, my story is pretty common, not unusual, almost "cookie cutter" in nature with a few interchangeable parts. It's so typical that cultural misogynist attitudes I learned, internalized, and it was another issue preventing me from accepting myself. Being tormented in Church over it is also pretty common. And while they dislike people who don't follow "traditional" gender roles and norms, transgender people--as in those who are medically transitioning--are they accuse people of saying Jehovah made a mistake.
Add in the medical issues, and, yeah, everyone else can get their own group. It is frustrating when most of those at what is supposed to be your support group don't know the answers to questions related to medical care (such as insurance, hormones, electrolysis, surgeries, therapists, and accepting and cooperative doctors) because they have an entirely different set of issues and stuff going on. They really just are not going through the same thing.

 

[Meow Mix]

Being trans used to mean that you identified as the opposite sex and wished to be that sex and live as it as much as you could. We were originally called transsexuals. Transsexuals, transvestites, drag queens, butch women, feminine men, etc. basically had nothing to do with each other and existed in separate social circles. Transsexuals would transition and basically get on with their lives. It was kind of the the norm to go stealth, although some would maintain their ties to the gay or lesbian community (since many came from those communities in the first place, as it afforded them the chance to be with the sex they were attracted to and also allowed them to be masculine females or feminine males). Then the term "transgender" started to be introduced more and more until it became the accepted term somewhere in the '90s or early 2000s. But it still kept much the same meaning as "transsexual". But that seems to have changed into an "umbrella term" around a decade or almost 15 years ago. So we've gone from it meaning one thing in particular for about a century to it meaning basically nothing at all.

I have nothing in common with those who don't wish to transition. If you're not trying to actually change your sex, we're not in the same category at all. And it isn't something that just hits you at puberty or decades later - it's there since early childhood.

I am still curious what the proposition is to DO about this greater inclusivity, since the argument being made that we "need gatekeeping." Tangibly, what is being proposed?

I'm not trying to gloss over your concerns stemming from your experience (though we should not forget the targets of your concern have valid experiences, hence wanting community, as well).

It sounds to me like you want community with... what exactly? Just trans folks that transition to be heterosexuals and "go on with their lives?" I'm confused whether you want community or don't. I'm also not sure why "I'd prefer this kind of community" has to translate to "we should gatekeep the community at large."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am still curious what the proposition is to DO about this greater inclusivity, since the argument being made that we "need gatekeeping." Tangibly, what is being proposed?

We're saying **** on greater inclusivity because we want to associate with people we can relate to, not something that is so open the brain fell out as the chasers walked in. It's kind of like a lung cancer group being taken over by people with emphysema. Or a group intended for people with low-functioning autism being invaded and overrun by people with high-functioning autism. We may have many of the same features, characteristics, and symptoms, but I generally still use asperger's because there is no way I can even pretend to know what it's like for someone with a form of low-functioning autism, and I feel overly using a lump term to put all autistic people into one big group tends to paint a rather misleading picture because the differences in daily living and challenges and struggles between one end of the spectrum and the other can be profound.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They need their own group. Really. Such as, those of us medically transitioning often are not androgynous as far as our gender expressions go. Lots of us even torment ourselves over things that may be of the sex we were born as, much like how we used to torment ourselves over things of the opposite sex when we were in denial. Often, when we in denial and trying to cope and live as our birth sex, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to the opposite sex. Often, as we're transitioning and other points and stages, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to our birth sex. We often cringe at hearing our birth names, but yet adopt very masculine/feminine expressions (whichever matches our birth sex).
For MtFs (I can't speak much for FtM), police and military service is very common before we accept ourselves. Myself, I did pro-wrestling. And for no reason would I do or use anything feminine. No ear rings, short hair, words and adjectives I carefully selected to avoid saying anything that might sound feminine, even foods were things that I considered through how they are culturally gendered. But eventually I stopped that, accepted myself, and while I didn't do the hyper-feminine thing a lot of us do, I did just admit to myself a few weeks ago that I am a bit of a gearhead, something I've avoided and denied because it is strongly stereotyped as a guy thing (and there really aren't that many women working professionally in car-related fields).
For a MtF, my story is pretty common, not unusual, almost "cookie cutter" in nature with a few interchangeable parts. It's so typical that cultural misogynist attitudes I learned, internalized, and it was another issue preventing me from accepting myself. Being tormented in Church over it is also pretty common. And while they dislike people who don't follow "traditional" gender roles and norms, transgender people--as in those who are medically transitioning--are they accuse people of saying Jehovah made a mistake.
Add in the medical issues, and, yeah, everyone else can get their own group. It is frustrating when most of those at what is supposed to be your support group don't know the answers to questions related to medical care (such as insurance, hormones, electrolysis, surgeries, therapists, and accepting and cooperative doctors) because they have an entirely different set of issues and stuff going on. They really just are not going through the same thing.

Transsexual men tend to come from the lesbian community (like Chaz Bono) and tend to exhibit masculine behavior before transitioning (being tomboys when young to being very butch lesbians beforehand). Female to male transsexuality seems to be associated with high androgen exposure in the uterus, according to what research I know of. I was always very masculine in how I presented and behaved. I was just like a boy when I was a kid and my friends were all boys. I cut myself trying to shave like my dad when I was like 2 or 3, and there's so many other examples, aside from how I personally perceived myself (always as a male in my mind).

The mechanisms that result in MTF or FTM transsexuals seem to be somewhat different, although there's biological evidence for both.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am still curious what the proposition is to DO about this greater inclusivity, since the argument being made that we "need gatekeeping." Tangibly, what is being proposed?

I'm not trying to gloss over your concerns stemming from your experience (though we should not forget the targets of your concern have valid experiences, hence wanting community, as well).

It sounds to me like you want community with... what exactly? Just trans folks that transition to be heterosexuals and "go on with their lives?" I'm confused whether you want community or don't. I'm also not sure why "I'd prefer this kind of community" has to translate to "we should gatekeep the community at large."

I'm saying that if they're not transsexuals, they should stop clinging to the "trans" label and form their own communities. Being "trans" isn't something you should be fighting to be recognized as (it's not a badge of honor) and it had a very specific definition for the vast majority of its existence. There's always been androgenous people, for instance. That's huge among gays and lesbians and you'll even find examples among straights. That's huge especially in the artistic world. But they're not transssxuals, either. Gender variance does not equal being trans. You can be a masculine woman or a feminine man without changing your identity (Sam Smith, for example).

And being hetero has nothing to do with it. I'm bisexual, myself, and relate more to gay men (culturally and otherwise) than I do with straight men. But personally? I'm a man. I'm just some guy. Being "trans" isn't my identity and it's not an identity, anyway. It's a facet of your medical history.

 

[Meow Mix]

They need their own group. Really. Such as, those of us medically transitioning often are not androgynous as far as our gender expressions go. Lots of us even torment ourselves over things that may be of the sex we were born as, much like how we used to torment ourselves over things of the opposite sex when we were in denial. Often, when we in denial and trying to cope and live as our birth sex, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to the opposite sex. Often, as we're transitioning and other points and stages, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to our birth sex. We often cringe at hearing our birth names, but yet adopt very masculine/feminine expressions (whichever matches our birth sex).
For MtFs (I can't speak much for FtM), police and military service is very common before we accept ourselves. Myself, I did pro-wrestling. And for no reason would I do or use anything feminine. No ear rings, short hair, words and adjectives I carefully selected to avoid saying anything that might sound feminine, even foods were things that I considered through how they are culturally gendered. But eventually I stopped that, accepted myself, and while I didn't do the hyper-feminine thing a lot of us do, I did just admit to myself a few weeks ago that I am a bit of a gearhead, something I've avoided and denied because it is strongly stereotyped as a guy thing (and there really aren't that many women working professionally in car-related fields).
For a MtF, my story is pretty common, not unusual, almost "cookie cutter" in nature with a few interchangeable parts. It's so typical that cultural misogynist attitudes I learned, internalized, and it was another issue preventing me from accepting myself. Being tormented in Church over it is also pretty common. And while they dislike people who don't follow "traditional" gender roles and norms, transgender people--as in those who are medically transitioning--are they accuse people of saying Jehovah made a mistake.
Add in the medical issues, and, yeah, everyone else can get their own group. It is frustrating when most of those at what is supposed to be your support group don't know the answers to questions related to medical care (such as insurance, hormones, electrolysis, surgeries, therapists, and accepting and cooperative doctors) because they have an entirely different set of issues and stuff going on. They really just are not going through the same thing.

OK, so by "they need their own group," do you mean some group other than "LGBT+?" Because it sounds like you want a group/community specifically for similar trans issues as your lived experience (while keeping dissimilar trans experiences out). So are you really talking about gatekeeping LGBT+, or are you talking about gatekeeping trans community?

 

[Meow Mix]

Transsexual men tend to come from the lesbian community (like Chaz Bono) and tend to exhibit masculine behavior before transitioning (being tomboys when young to being very butch lesbians beforehand). Female to male transsexuality seems to be associated with high androgen exposure in the uterus, according to what research I know of. I was always very masculine in how I presented and behaved. I was just like a boy when I was a kid and my friends were all boys. I cut myself trying to shave like my dad when I was like 2 or 3, and there's so many other examples, aside from how I personally perceived myself (always as a male in my mind).

The mechanisms that result in MTF or FTM transsexuals seem to be somewhat different, although there's biological evidence for both.

So do you believe experiences that are different from yours are invalid, or unworthy of community support?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So do you believe experiences that are different from yours are invalid, or unworthy of community support?

I'm saying they need their own communities. There's a reason why "transsexual" is being reclaimed and we refuse to be called "transgender".

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm saying that if they're not transsexuals, they should stop clinging to the "trans" label and form their own communities. Being "trans" isn't something you should be fighting to be recognized as (it's not a badge of honor) and it had a very specific definition for the vast majority of its existence. There's always been androgenous people, for instance. That's huge among gays and lesbians and you'll even find examples among straights. That's huge especially in the artistic world. But they're not transssxuals, either. Gender variance does not equal being trans. You can be a masculine female or a feminine man without changing your identity (Sam Smith, for example).

And being hetero has nothing to do with it. I'm bisexual, myself, and relate more to gay men (culturally and otherwise) than I do with straight men. But personally? I'm a man. I'm just some guy. Being "trans" isn't my identity and it's not an identity, anyway. It's a facet of your medical history.

What nomenclature should there be for a person that feels as though they aren't the sex they were born as, but for medical, or social, or any myriad of reasons decides never to transition if not trans? They aren't quite genderqueer or nonbinary (they feel they are a man, or a woman in this case). Is this the problem, that they adopt the word trans because they feel like they aren't the sex they were born as?

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm saying they need their own communities.

Ok, their own communities from what? From LGBT+?

Or are you saying there are trans communities, and you want them to make their own? (Someone said there weren't trans communities just a few posts ago, I'm trying to keep up).

 

[Meow Mix]

Is the proposed gatekeeping something like this:
To be ingroup, you must transition, you must be a man or a woman, you must present (do they have to pass?)

Is this the proposal here?

Are outgroup folks kicked out of LGBT+ or are they just kicked out of this proposed gatekeeping trans community?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

OK, so by "they need their own group," do you mean some group other than "LGBT+?" Because it sounds like you want a group/community specifically for similar trans issues as your lived experience (while keeping dissimilar trans experiences out). So are you really talking about gatekeeping LGBT+, or are you talking about gatekeeping trans community?

Primarily the T, especially in regards to medical treatment and support groups and in general, but it extends into the LGB. As Frank pointed out, androgynous people have always existed and they weren't included with queers. Guys with feminine personalities and women with masculine personalities have always existed. But they were their own separate thing. LGBT actually has a shared history, with the modern movement for equal rights being birthed as one event. We have a shared history together, and it includes hanging out at mob bars because we were criminalized and no one else wanted us around. And it was the queers who rioted against authority. It wasn't tomboys, it wasn't androgynous artists, and it wasn't people who needed more than physical appearance for a romantic and sexual relation to begin. We're queers, they have their own thing.

 

[Debater Slayer]

They need their own group. Really. Such as, those of us medically transitioning often are not androgynous as far as our gender expressions go. Lots of us even torment ourselves over things that may be of the sex we were born as, much like how we used to torment ourselves over things of the opposite sex when we were in denial. Often, when we in denial and trying to cope and live as our birth sex, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to the opposite sex. Often, as we're transitioning and other points and stages, we are very insecure about things that may even be remotely related to our birth sex. We often cringe at hearing our birth names, but yet adopt very masculine/feminine expressions (whichever matches our birth sex).
For MtFs (I can't speak much for FtM), police and military service is very common before we accept ourselves. Myself, I did pro-wrestling. And for no reason would I do or use anything feminine. No ear rings, short hair, words and adjectives I carefully selected to avoid saying anything that might sound feminine, even foods were things that I considered through how they are culturally gendered. But eventually I stopped that, accepted myself, and while I didn't do the hyper-feminine thing a lot of us do, I did just admit to myself a few weeks ago that I am a bit of a gearhead, something I've avoided and denied because it is strongly stereotyped as a guy thing (and there really aren't that many women working professionally in car-related fields).
For a MtF, my story is pretty common, not unusual, almost "cookie cutter" in nature with a few interchangeable parts. It's so typical that cultural misogynist attitudes I learned, internalized, and it was another issue preventing me from accepting myself. Being tormented in Church over it is also pretty common. And while they dislike people who don't follow "traditional" gender roles and norms, transgender people--as in those who are medically transitioning--are they accuse people of saying Jehovah made a mistake.
Add in the medical issues, and, yeah, everyone else can get their own group. It is frustrating when most of those at what is supposed to be your support group don't know the answers to questions related to medical care (such as insurance, hormones, electrolysis, surgeries, therapists, and accepting and cooperative doctors) because they have an entirely different set of issues and stuff going on. They really just are not going through the same thing.

I'm saying they need their own communities. There's a reason why "transsexual" is being reclaimed and we refuse to be called "transgender".

I've recently been discussing transgendered issues with a TERF, and she made literally the exact same arguments as those above in order to say that trans women should be excluded from women's-only spaces. "They don't have the same experience of living as a woman or being treated as one by society since childhood. They should have their own groups away from women."

Unnecessarily exclusionary logic may seem fine until it backfires and ends up in a situation where it works to exclude the very same people who defended it in other situations.

 

[Meow Mix]

We're saying **** on greater inclusivity because we want to associate with people we can relate to, not something that is so open the brain fell out as the chasers walked in. It's kind of like a lung cancer group being taken over by people with emphysema. Or a group intended for people with low-functioning autism being invaded and overrun by people with high-functioning autism. We may have many of the same features, characteristics, and symptoms, but I generally still use asperger's because there is no way I can even pretend to know what it's like for someone with a form of low-functioning autism, and I feel overly using a lump term to put all autistic people into one big group tends to paint a rather misleading picture because the differences in daily living and challenges and struggles between one end of the spectrum and the other can be profound.

Why is the solution "kick people out of the big umbrella group" and not "make a group conducive to my needs?"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is the proposed gatekeeping something like this:
To be ingroup, you must transition, you must be a man or a woman, you must present (do they have to pass?)

Is this the proposal here?

Are outgroup folks kicked out of LGBT+ or are they just kicked out of this proposed gatekeeping trans community?

Passing hasn't' even been mentioned.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What nomenclature should there be for a person that feels as though they aren't the sex they were born as, but for medical, or social, or any myriad of reasons decides never to transition if not trans? They aren't quite genderqueer or nonbinary (they feel they are a man, or a woman in this case). Is this the problem, that they adopt the word trans because they feel like they aren't the sex they were born as?

Why do they need a label? Gender bending people have always existed in all cultures and eras. Part of the problem is confusing sex (being a man or woman, male or female) with gender roles and expressions. So now we have dozens of different "gender identities" (non-binary, demiwhatever, genderqueer, gender neutral, etc.). To some, it's gotten to the point where they think they aren't a man or a woman because they aren't Barbie or GI Joe. There's a lot of peer pressure involved, too. It's a mess among teenage girls.

 

[Meow Mix]

Primarily the T, especially in regards to medical treatment and support groups and in general, but it extends into the LGB. As Frank pointed out, androgynous people have always existed and they weren't included with queers. Guys with feminine personalities and women with masculine personalities have always existed. But they were their own separate thing. LGBT actually has a shared history, with the modern movement for equal rights being birthed as one event. We have a shared history together, and it includes hanging out at mob bars because we were criminalized and no one else wanted us around. And it was the queers who rioted against authority. It wasn't tomboys, it wasn't androgynous artists, and it wasn't people who needed more than physical appearance for a romantic and sexual relation to begin. We're queers, they have their own thing.

So if we're hypothetically gatekeeping LGBT+ now, what do we do?

Put "no genderqueers" on our flyers?

 

[Meow Mix]

Why do they need a label? Gender bending people have always existed in all cultures and eras. Part of the problem is confusing sex (being a man or woman, male or female) with gender roles and expressions. So now we have dozens of different "gender identities" (non-binary, demiwhatever, genderqueer, gender neutral, etc.). To some, it's gotten to the point where they think they aren't a man or a woman because they aren't Barbie or GI Joe. There's a lot of peer pressure involved, too. It's a mess among teenage girls.

It's valid not to feel like a man or a woman regardless of presentation, though. I have a friend that presents pretty feminine, but they don't identify as a woman or a man. That's valid.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've recently been discussing transgendered issues with a TERF, and she made literally the exact same arguments as those above in order to say that trans women should be excluded from women's-only spaces. "They don't have the same experience of living as a woman or being treated as one by society since childhood. They should have their own groups away from women."

Unnecessarily exclusionary logic may seem fine until it backfires and ends up in a situation where it works to exclude the very same people who defended it in other situations.

Except we know we aren't exactly the same.
And if you go back, I've included examples where this can also be a safety concern, an issue we have to address because it does give TERFs a lot of fuel to work with and in general make it harder for people who are trans. Like someone who grabs his breasts in public, loudly announces he loves having boobs and just likes to squeeze them. Or someone who is post-op and posting upskirt pictures of themselves on the internet. And if people can find that, how are we to say we're just like anyone else in the bathroom when some loudmouthed bozo with a fetish is providing reason to believe we shouldn't?
This failure to catch such people does do damage to trans people just trying to live as normal of a life as we possibly can (and not just trans people. Even cis people have been victims of bathroom vigilance).

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't deny the experiences being expressed in this thread, or the hardships faced.

But I'd be lying if I didn't say I was disappointed in the decisions on what to do about it. Denying others' experiences, gatekeeping, etc. rather than doing something constructive like setting up support that speaks to the specific kinds of issues there are concerns about.

Rather than "I should be an activist for this cause" I'm seeing "I should gatekeep people and 'other' them because their experiences aren't the same as mine."

LGBT+ means something different to everyone (as we've established). We have our own opinions on this. I'll just say mine will not include this gatekeeping and othering. It could include constructive activism geared towards specific issues in particular subcommunities. But not gatekeeping the community at large.