As to beliefs ...

[mikkel_the_dane]

It doesn't really matter if it's true or not, to them. Because it doesn't matter if it's false. We all live in 'storyland' even as adults. But especially as children. It's why we use our stories to teach them about how life works. At least how we think it works. Our stories are how we make sense of things. And children need them, too.

They will begin to create their own stories as they experience more and more of life for themselves. Until then, they get their parent's stories to try and understand it all, good or bad.

Yeah, the believers in real, natural, objective, rational truth don't understand that is as much a narrative as any other narrative.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Don’t think Larkin had religion particularly in mind when he wrote those lines…

 

[Twilight Hue]

So give the evidence.

You will factually die for certain as will I. It's not a belief. If you don't view death as adequate evidence, then your hopelessly delusional.

Spealing of beliefs, your not taking your that with you either.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You will factually die for certain as will I. It's not a belief. If you don't death as adequate evidence, then your hopelessly delusional.

Spealing of beliefs, your not taking your that with you either.

That I will die as for the body, we can agree on. But what happens then, is not known one way or another.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That I will die as for the body, we can agree on. But what happens then, is not known one way or another.

That's why all belief goes too.

The future is unknown yet we can at least reflect on what it's like before our birth, which was essentially a complete blank with no memory associated to any events prior.

Just like this life, it started with a mind wiped clean until the information started coming in through our senses only to be wiped clean once death occurs.

So it seems any and all beliefs and any and all experiences in this life, stays exclusively with this life.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's why all belief goes too.

The future is unknown yet we can at least reflect on what it's like before our birth, which was essentially a complete blank with no memory associated to any events prior.

Just like this life, it started with a mind wiped clean until the information started coming in through our senses only to be wiped clean once death occurs.

So it seems any and all beliefs and any and all experiences in this life, stays exclusively with this life.

Yes, it seems. But that is the point.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It doesn't really matter if it's true or not, to them. Because it doesn't matter if it's false. We all live in 'storyland' even as adults. But especially as children. It's why we use our stories to teach them about how life works. At least how we think it works. Our stories are how we make sense of things. And children need them, too.

They will begin to create their own stories as they experience more and more of life for themselves. Until then, they get their parent's stories to try and understand it all, good or bad.

Your belief, not mine. I think it does matter as to what children are taught, especially when such might affect their lives and others. Why do we have so many rubbishing science (or really believing impossible things) or discriminating (hating on ) others, apart from such coming from rather silly religious beliefs instilled into them as children? Many just don't do the thinking that you seem to suppose. Not noticed it here on RF?

 

[Mock Turtle]

You are aware that there is no objective truth just as there is no God for the same standard of pointing to them.
You are simply a believer in a certain version of truth, but that is not relevant because it is rational according to your belief system of truth.

Okay, then show that it is true that it is rational?

No. You know there are a number of religious beliefs and all cannot be correct, so why inflict any one on children when they are unable to understand or make proper decisions as to such. Religious beliefs are not the same as most other beliefs but you will still insist they are.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I see it as difficult if not impossible to raise a child without instilling them with beliefs and values. Every culture on Earth I've ever heard of does it. That's why kids tend to be the same religion as their parents when they get older. Kids raised irreligious tend to have the same irreligious worldview as adults, too. Were their rights infringed?

People who have an animosity toward all religion tend to single it out on this point, but I think that has more to do with which values and beliefs are taught rather than the teaching of values and beliefs itself.

But you can do this as to schooling - given that this basically gives an official stamp to whatever religion is taught. That is all that I am asking - not to do this to younger children. Those older, and who would like to have a particular religion taught - as an option - fair enough, but why impose such in a blanket fashion to those not really ready for such?

 

[Mock Turtle]

View attachment 77659

Don’t think Larkin had religion particularly in mind when he wrote those lines…

That is no argument for not avoiding other ways to **** people up though is it. That is a senseless approach - oh, we shouldn't do this because something else will affect them anyway.

 

[Left Coast]

But you can do this as to schooling - given that this basically gives an official stamp to whatever religion is taught. That is all that I am asking - not to do this to younger children. Those older, and who would like to have a particular religion taught - as an option - fair enough, but why impose such in a blanket fashion to those not really ready for such?

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, or I'm not saying it clearly. You're putting "religion" in this separate bucket in your head that you can do without. But religion is essentially a collection of beliefs and values and rituals that people do, and pass on to the next generation. This is what all cultures do, though. All parents do this - teach their children a worldview, how to behave, what is expected of them, what is normal, what is their purpose, what is the world like. You can't raise a child without some measure of these things. This, again, is why irreligious kids usually grow up to be irreligious adults - the same sociological and psychological processes are at play as in religious families.

This doesn't mean any and all beliefs or values are equally rational or evidence-based or what have you. It just means that this line of reasoning that we shouldn't "inflict" beliefs and values on children doesn't really work.

 

[PureX]

Your belief, not mine. I think it does matter as to what children are taught, especially when such might affect their lives and others. Why do we have so many rubbishing science (or really believing impossible things) or discriminating (hating on ) others, apart from such coming from rather silly religious beliefs instilled into them as children? Many just don't do the thinking that you seem to suppose. Not noticed it here on RF?

You're told not to touch the candle flame as a child because it'll hurt you. It's a story you've been given by the people upon whom you rely for your survival. So you accept it. Until you forget. Or you doubt. Or you just get too curious to leave it be, and you touch it, anyway. And you get burned. And it hurts.

We're told lots and lots of stories as children by the people we rely on for our survival. And we believe them. Until we forget, or we doubt, or we get curious. Then we'll defy the story's "lesson" and test it for ourselves. It's what we humans do. Some of us will test all of them many times. Others will test only some and only once. Each according to our natures. And then when we have children we will pass the stories that we now hold to be important on to them. And they will accept them blindly as we did. Until they don't.

The point here is that all of us are trying to deny them that story in favor of this story because this story is our story, and that one is not. What you are suggesting in leaving religion out of it is no different than what those who want religion in the story are doing. Everyone is editing their stories and passing them on as they see fit. And then the next generation does the same. It doesn't matter whether religion is part of little Johny's story or not. It's part of the body of stories that we all have available to us and when Johnny forgets, or becomes skeptical, or becomes curious enough, he can seek and test it out. And if he doesn't, it's because he didn't feel a need to. And only Johnny can determine that. Not you, not me, and not even Johnny until it's time.

In the meantime we give them our stories. Because those are what we have to give them.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No. You know there are a number of religious beliefs and all cannot be correct, so why inflict any one on children when they are unable to understand or make proper decisions as to such. Religious beliefs are not the same as most other beliefs but you will still insist they are.

Yeah, but that is also so for the concepts of knowledge, science, logic, rationality, objective, evidence and even proper decisions.
It is not unique to religion.
So how come you single out religion as special, when it is a general feature and in effect is cognitive, cultural and moral relativism for all human claims?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yeah, but that is also so for the concepts of knowledge, science, logic, rationality, objective, evidence and even proper decisions.
It is not unique to religion.
So how come you single out religion as special, when it is a general feature and in effect is cognitive, cultural and moral relativism for all human claims?

Because I do think religions are different from other beliefs, do cause so many issues between peoples, do often cause conflicts and deaths, are not evidenced sufficiently, and shouldn't be imposed on people. I have no issues with anyone choosing to have any such beliefs - although I might not like the harms that might result - but I don't believe such beliefs should be taught to younger children. Because, I believe this is not warranted.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You're told not to touch the candle flame as a child because it'll hurt you. It's a story you've been given by the people upon whom you rely for your survival. So you accept it. Until you forget. Or you doubt. Or you just get too curious to leave it be, and you touch it, anyway. And you get burned. And it hurts.

We're told lots and lots of stories as children by the people we rely on for our survival. And we believe them. Until we forget, or we doubt, or we get curious. Then we'll defy the story's "lesson" and test it for ourselves. It's what we humans do. Some of us will test all of them many times. Others will test only some and only once. Each according to our natures. And then when we have children we will pass the stories that we now hold to be important on to them. And they will accept them blindly as we did. Until they don't.

The point here is that all of us are trying to deny them that story in favor of this story because this story is our story, and that one is not. What you are suggesting in leaving religion out of it is no different than what those who want religion in the story are doing. Everyone is editing their stories and passing them on as they see fit. And then the next generation does the same. It doesn't matter whether religion is part of little Johny's story or not. It's part of the body of stories that we all have available to us and when Johnny forgets, or becomes skeptical, or becomes curious enough, he can seek and test it out. And if he doesn't, it's because he didn't feel a need to. And only Johnny can determine that. Not you, not me, and not even Johnny until it's time.

In the meantime we give them our stories. Because those are what we have to give them.

Well the evidence I cited, after just a brief look, suggested that most people don't do any resolving of the religious belief they were taught so as to affirm or deny such. It does seem that the religion one is born with is the one that will endure throughout life, but with some switching religions later on perhaps - to closely allied ones though - but not for most.

All I am arguing for is to not exploit the lack of abilities of younger children. If they want a religion when they are mature enough, no problem. And I'm arguing this because I believe that they should have such rights (not to be indoctrinated) over the rights of their parents and/or culture.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, or I'm not saying it clearly. You're putting "religion" in this separate bucket in your head that you can do without. But religion is essentially a collection of beliefs and values and rituals that people do, and pass on to the next generation. This is what all cultures do, though. All parents do this - teach their children a worldview, how to behave, what is expected of them, what is normal, what is their purpose, what is the world like. You can't raise a child without some measure of these things. This, again, is why irreligious kids usually grow up to be irreligious adults - the same sociological and psychological processes are at play as in religious families.

This doesn't mean any and all beliefs or values are equally rational or evidence-based or what have you. It just means that this line of reasoning that we shouldn't "inflict" beliefs and values on children doesn't really work.

Religion obviously is something that many can do without - not noticed the numbers here on RF. Just because we have conditions from the past and passed down as culture doesn't mean we need to retain all that we do. I think that we do need to look at how certain beliefs are passed on, and religions for me tend to be the ones that cause more issues - apart from nationalities.

And as I have no doubt commented somewhere in this thread or elsewhere, I know that parents will be doing whatever they feel is right in the home as to what they teach their children, but as to schooling I think this should not be so for younger children, given that is seems more like indoctrination. Their education at school should be more about helping them to become citizens of the world than being formed into little or larger groupings dependent upon where they were born.

 

[PureX]

Well the evidence I cited, after just a brief look, suggested that most people don't do any resolving of the religious belief they were taught so as to affirm or deny such.

I don't understand why you think this matters except that you don't like the stories they've held onto. And instead of admitting that they do like them, you want to paint them as being too stupid to bother questioning them. But that's just humanity. Very few of us question the stories we've been handed unless we're pushed to do it by circumstance. And if that doesn't happen, we just go on assuming that they are accurate enough.

It does seem that the religion one is born with is the one that will endure throughout life, but with some switching religions later on perhaps - to closely allied ones though - but not for most.

It may seem so, but I don't think it is so. The most inaccurate surveys out there are the ones asking about theological affiliations. Because it's very, very difficult to get a strait, accurate answer from people. Most are unclear about what they believe, and it changes from day to day based on moods and circumstances. So to avoid all this confusion over a survey, they say what they were taught to say all their life. But it doesn't really mean a thing except that's how they were taught to respond and it's too much work to bother clarifying it all for some survey. Many wouldn't even be able.

All I am arguing for is to not exploit the lack of abilities of younger children. If they want a religion when they are mature enough, no problem. And I'm arguing this because I believe that they should have such rights (not to be indoctrinated) over the rights of their parents and/or culture.

What you want is simply not possible. All children have to be "indoctrinated" into their tribe for the sake of both the child and the tribe. That's just the way it is for we humans.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Mock Turtle
"According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 121, or 6.87%, had religion as their primary cause. Matthew White's The Great Big Book of Horrible Things gives religion as the primary cause of 11 of the world's 100 deadliest atrocities."
First hit on Google.

 

[PureX]

Religion obviously is something that many can do without - not noticed the numbers here on RF. Just because we have conditions from the past and passed down as culture doesn't mean we need to retain all that we do. I think that we do need to look at how certain beliefs are passed on, and religions for me tend to be the ones that cause more issues - apart from nationalities.

And as I have no doubt commented somewhere in this thread or elsewhere, I know that parents will be doing whatever they feel is right in the home as to what they teach their children, but as to schooling I think this should not be so for younger children, given that is seems more like indoctrination. Their education at school should be more about helping them to become citizens of the world than being formed into little or larger groupings dependent upon where they were born.

Most humans do not yet see all humanity as their tribe. Many will even resist that idea if it's presented to them as being our future. If it ever happens at all, it will be a long way off.

Also, religions are just collections of images, stories, rituals, ideals, and practices intended to help people live according to their chosen or inherited theology. We can do without religion (those tools) but we can't live without a theology of some kind. At least most people can't. We need some sense of existential value and purpose.

 

[Left Coast]

Religion obviously is something that many can do without - not noticed the numbers here on RF.

But I'm betting all of them - including you - were taught beliefs and values and ethics as a child.

Just because we have conditions from the past and passed down as culture doesn't mean we need to retain all that we do.

Of course not. But we have to pass down ssomething. So this notion that passing on per se is "inflicting" that "violates the rights" of the child just doesn't follow.

And as I have no doubt commented somewhere in this thread or elsewhere, I know that parents will be doing whatever they feel is right in the home as to what they teach their children, but as to schooling I think this should not be so for younger children, given that is seems more like indoctrination. Their education at school should be more about helping them to become citizens of the world than being formed into little or larger groupings dependent upon where they were born.

The whole idea that children should be "citizens of the world" is itself a value that you're saying you want to teach children. Why isn't that indoctrination? That is my point. You have an issue with what religions teach, okay. But don't conflate that with teaching itself.