As to beliefs ...

[Mock Turtle]

This language begs the question. Are values and beliefs "inflicted" on children or taught to them? Do non-religious parents not "inflict" children with beliefs and values?



It's also not easy if living in an anti-religious culture to leave one's irreligious worldview and join a religion. The bigger issue there seems to be pluralism/liberalism, not religiosity.

I suppose my viewpoint can only come from someone not enamoured with religions, but, given it is rather a lottery as to what religion one gets as a child, I still suspect that their rights are being infringed as to having a fair and neutral upbringing - which is not really what one can say about most other things taught, although of course there are cultural and country-devoted spins as to history and political beliefs and such. Why inflict such beliefs on young children when it isn't really necessary? Oh, the religion might lose members.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I suppose my viewpoint can only come from someone not enamoured with religions, but, given it is rather a lottery as to what religion one gets as a child, I still suspect that their rights are being infringed as to having a fair and neutral upbringing - which is not really what one can say about most other things taught, although of course there are cultural and country-devoted spins as to history and political beliefs and such. Why inflict such beliefs on young children when it isn't really necessary? Oh, the religion might lose members.

You don't really seem to understand that it is not limited to religion.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You don't really seem to understand that it is not limited to religion.

Really? Of course I do, but religion is a more fundamental belief than so many others (many are prepared to kill over such beliefs), and hence does often tend to cause conflict between peoples. So why inflict such things on children when they are not capable of discerning any truths in any religion they might be taught?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Really? Of course I do, but religion is a more fundamental belief than so many others (many are prepared to kill over such beliefs), and hence does often tend to cause conflict between peoples. So why inflict such things on children when they are not capable of discerning any truths in any religion they might be taught?

No, all worldviews are fundamental as worldviews and not just religious ones. As for killing the evidence doesn't show that religion is that special when it comes to that.
In effect you are so biases against religion as a cultural indoctrination, that you can't understand that, that you are biased. But I am biased too, I just know that for my worldview as fundamental, where as you don't view your worldview as biased in any sense.

That is the psychology of different cognitive schemata in effect for us 2 as humans.

 

[Mock Turtle]

No, all worldviews are fundamental as worldviews and not just religious ones. As for killing the evidence doesn't show that religion is that special when it comes to that.
In effect you are so biases against religion as a cultural indoctrination, that you can't understand that, that you are biased. But I am biased too, I just know that for my worldview as fundamental, where as you don't view your worldview as biased in any sense.

That is the psychology of different cognitive schemata in effect for us 2 as humans.

Of course I am biased, just as any who have a religion will be biased, and so are you. I have a belief in human rights, and as to children deserving such as much as adults. Given this, I see their rights not to be indoctrinated as being greater than the rights of the parents or culture to inflict religious beliefs upon them - since they are the vulnerable ones. And it is just not necessary and could be delayed until they were capable of making such decisions.

I know this is not a popular view and will not likely happen any time soon, but I think it might come eventually - when people start to think more rationally.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Of course I am biased, just as any who have a religion will be biased, and so are you. I have a belief in human rights, and as to children deserving such as much as adults. Given this, I see their rights not to be indoctrinated as being greater than the rights of the parents or culture to inflict religious beliefs upon them - since they are the vulnerable ones. And it is just not necessary and could be delayed until they were capable of making such decisions.

I know this is not a popular view and will not likely happen any time soon, but I think it might come eventually - when people start to think more rationally.

Well, as long as you believe it is rational, you are no different than some religious believers. You just have a dogmatic belief in rational in effect.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well, as long as you believe it is rational, you are no different than some religious believers. You just have a dogmatic belief in rational in effect.

No, we seem to differ as to who should have rights.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, we seem to differ as to who should have rights.

Yeah and rights are not rational. They are in the end emotions.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yeah and rights are not rational. They are in the end emotions.

Why would they simply be emotions? Are children not individuals? Why give them rights at a certain age only - like the ones we usually give them when they become legally adults - but let the rest be in the hands of their parents and/or culture? The fact is they are being exploited by having religious education at such young ages - especially when it is rather random as to what they get. Claiming that such is done to enculturate them is hardly a good excuse, especially when - as the information I linked - shows that most will not leave the religion they were born with. We are doing them a disservice.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why would they simply be emotions? Are children not individuals? Why give them rights at a certain age only - like the ones we usually give them when they become legally adults - but let the rest be in the hands of their parents and/or culture? The fact is they are being exploited by having religious education at such young ages - especially when it is rather random as to what they get. Claiming that such is done to enculturate them is hardly a good excuse, especially when - as the information I linked - shows that most will not leave the religion they were born with. We are doing them a disservice.

You can't establish that they are individuals without believing they are that for the fact that it matters. That it matters, is the emotion.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You can't establish that they are individuals without believing they are that for the fact that it matters. That it matters, is the emotion.

I hardly need to establish anything. They are individuals. All we seem to be disagreeing about is as to who gets the rights - the parents/state or the children. Because if one looked seriously from my perspective then they are not the ones having the rights. I can't say much more about this given this is what I believe and I know most will disagree - most with a religious belief, that is, but many who don't too no doubt.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I hardly need to establish anything. They are individuals. All we seem to be disagreeing about is as to who gets the rights - the parents/state or the children. Because if one looked seriously from my perspective then they are not the ones having the rights. I can't say much more about this given this is what I believe and I know most will disagree - most with a religious belief, that is, but many who don't too no doubt.

You can't observe that they are individuals as for rights. Just as you can't observe rights.
You are taking your thinking/emotions as fundamental for rights just as other people do. That is all.

 

[PureX]

I don't think we can say that children should not be exposed to religious ideals. Children are unique.

The musician Billie Eilish was raised with no religious indoctrination, and was homeschooled, so couldn't have been exposed to it even through school associations. Yet she remarked in an interview once that when she was young, about 9 or 10, she had become very "religious" (I think she meant spiritual as she wouldn't have known how to be religious). And it lasted for almost a year, then ended as inexplicably as it had begun. She didn't know why.

I have heard similar accounts from other folk's childhoods. And I think that some children do go through this kind of spiritual awakening at some point when they are still quite young. So some knowledge of religious ideals could be very helpful to them.

 

[Audie]

"Spiritual awakening" or
"Descent into superstitions"

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

"Spiritual awakening" or
"Descent into superstitions"

Or "real jerks".

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't think we can say that children should not be exposed to religious ideals. Children are unique.

The musician Billie Eilish was raised with no religious indoctrination, and was homeschooled, so couldn't have been exposed to it even through school associations. Yet she remarked in an interview once that when she was young, about 9 or 10, she had become very "religious" (I think she meant spiritual as she wouldn't have known how to be religious). And it lasted for almost a year, then ended as inexplicably as it had begun. She didn't know why.

I have heard similar accounts from other folk's childhoods. And I think that some children do go through this kind of spiritual awakening at some point when they are still quite young. So some knowledge of religious ideals could be very helpful to them.

Well I thought it was more explicit, given that I know religious beliefs will be taught in the home (so not much we can do about that, and probably a parent's right), but I don't like the fact that such things are taught (more, indoctrination - as being 'truth') to younger children during schooling and where they are not capable of understanding if such is true or not.

What happens to children will always happen - as to what enters their minds and as to what they will find of value - but I still maintain that religious beliefs, so taught, and in an environment where so many will accept such things as 'truth' is more exploitation than education. Given that such mainly depends upon where one is born.

 

[Left Coast]

I suppose my viewpoint can only come from someone not enamoured with religions, but, given it is rather a lottery as to what religion one gets as a child, I still suspect that their rights are being infringed as to having a fair and neutral upbringing - which is not really what one can say about most other things taught, although of course there are cultural and country-devoted spins as to history and political beliefs and such. Why inflict such beliefs on young children when it isn't really necessary? Oh, the religion might lose members.

I see it as difficult if not impossible to raise a child without instilling them with beliefs and values. Every culture on Earth I've ever heard of does it. That's why kids tend to be the same religion as their parents when they get older. Kids raised irreligious tend to have the same irreligious worldview as adults, too. Were their rights infringed?

People who have an animosity toward all religion tend to single it out on this point, but I think that has more to do with which values and beliefs are taught rather than the teaching of values and beliefs itself.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well I thought it was more explicit, given that I know religious beliefs will be taught in the home (so not much we can do about that, and probably a parent's right), but I don't like the fact that such things are taught (more, indoctrination - as being 'truth') to younger children during schooling and where they are not capable of understanding if such is true or not.

What happens to children will always happen - as to what enters their minds and as to what they will find of value - but I still maintain that religious beliefs, so taught, and in an environment where so many will accept such things as 'truth' is more exploitation than education. Given that such mainly depends upon where one is born.

You are aware that there is no objective truth just as there is no God for the same standard of pointing to them.
You are simply a believer in a certain version of truth, but that is not relevant because it is rational according to your belief system of truth.

Okay, then show that it is true that it is rational?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I see it as difficult if not impossible to raise a child without instilling them with beliefs and values. Every culture on Earth I've ever heard of does it. That's why kids tend to be the same religion as their parents when they get older. Kids raised irreligious tend to have the same irreligious worldview as adults, too. Were their rights infringed?

People who have an animosity toward all religion tend to single it out on this point, but I think that has more to do with which values and beliefs are taught rather than the teaching of values and beliefs itself.

We agree.

 

[PureX]

Well I thought it was more explicit, given that I know religious beliefs will be taught in the home (so not much we can do about that, and probably a parent's right), but I don't like the fact that such things are taught (more, indoctrination - as being 'truth') to younger children during schooling and where they are not capable of understanding if such is true or not.

It doesn't really matter if it's true or not, to them. Because it doesn't matter if it's false. We all live in 'storyland' even as adults. But especially as children. It's why we use our stories to teach them about how life works. At least how we think it works. Our stories are how we make sense of things. And children need them, too.

What happens to children will always happen - as to what enters their minds and as to what they will find of value - but I still maintain that religious beliefs, so taught, and in an environment where so many will accept such things as 'truth' is more exploitation than education. Given that such mainly depends upon where one is born.

They will begin to create their own stories as they experience more and more of life for themselves. Until then, they get their parent's stories to try and understand it all, good or bad.