1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured As long unexplained miracles happen, there will always be believers

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by KenS, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,204
    Ratings:
    +4,386
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    The definition provided here is problematic. I can consider that, yes, miracles are considered unexplained events of not natural causes, but by far most unexplained events claimed as miracles today have possible natural explanations. Most common are many of the claims of healing miracles, which upon a less biased examination they have possible natural explanations. There are, of course, miraculous claims, without explanation, because of the lack of information.
     
  2. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,896
    Ratings:
    +1,806
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I would agree that even looking at the natural with wholeness and gratitutde can become just as much as a miracle from God. Even looking into the eyes of my #10 grandchild, I can say... "He's a miracle" :)

    :D But I would still consider Lisette with an inoperable brain tumor with a short death sentence and then there was none a beautiful miracle too :D
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,896
    Ratings:
    +1,806
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I have no problem with her expanding the viewpoint. :D
     
  4. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Let's get one thing clear from jump. NOTHING I have said to you is an insult. Your own defense for using "miracle" to describe events that can be explained by natural laws is that YOU DON'T KNOW what the explanation is--therefore, it's a miracle.

    When someone doesn't know something, they are said to be ignorant of it. By your own admission, you are ignorant of the natural laws that explain those events that you call "miracles." That is not the same as calling someone ignorant as an insult--using it as the equivalent of "stupid," for instance. In this case, it is a legitimate, objective description of the circumstances. It does not mean that you are stupid, it just means what you said yourself--YOU DON'T KNOW what the explanation is.

    Let's proceed...

    The issue is your insistence upon using the word "miracle" incorrectly in the context of this thread.

    I have not told you any "opinions" whatsoever. I have tried to educate you regarding the definition of a miracle. The most frustrating part is that you seem to agree on the definition, that a miracle is something that cannot be explained by natural causes, but then continue to insist on applying it to things which can be explained by natural causes, like waking up in the morning.

    That's okay. My reading comprehension is on a level that allowed me to understand it the first time, and just in case I HAD missed it, you've repeated the error ad nauseum since.

    Yes, and if enough people start using the word "miracle" to include those things which can be explained by natural causes, then in 50 or 500 years we might be looking back on a different definition of that word, too. But right now, in a religious context (such as the one of this thread), the word applies only to events that can NOT be explained by natural causes--so anything natural is excluded by definition.

    See, here again you are saying, "I don't know"--admitting ignorance--and that is the point that I was making--that ignorance of a natural cause for some event does not make it miraculous. Even if you are not familiar with the law of gravity, it's still not a miracle for a thrown ball to drop to the ground.

    You are attributing the universe to a supernatural cause, but there's no reason to assume that the natural universe as a whole would have a supernatural cause. It's entirely possible (and everyone who disbelieves in a Creator believes) that the universe exists naturally--it is the nature of the universe to exist. In any case, if you're going to allow everything in the universe to be considered a miracle by virtue of the notion that the universe itself is a miracle (unable to be explained by a natural cause), then there's NOTHING left to BE a "natural cause"--so the word "miracle" becomes meaningless. If a miracle is anything that's unexplainable by natural causes, and there are no natural causes, then a miracle is anything whatsoever.

    Once again, I am not attacking you at all; I am correcting your usage of the word "miracle."
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,818
    Yeah. I first heard a miracle when I shared somewhere about my friend. They called her Blue Baby. She is christian...believe herself some god; saved her life. She was born with conginitive heart disease. Had a stroke as an infant. Had seizures. Legally blind. Her parents were going to abort her but her father decided otherwise. She wasnt supposed to live pass about ten, says the natural laws ;) she is thirty six now, has a boyfriend, highly catholic, and felt she owed her parents, god, and St. Mary, for her life that she is internally grateful.

    I mean all those things can be explained by natural causes but the miracle was more her devotion and how she loved moreso than curing her condition overnight and being able to see in a day.

    My tomayto is another person's toematoe.
     
    #85 Unveiled Artist, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  6. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    5,684
    Ratings:
    +2,080
    Religion:
    Atheist
    There was no incision or tear, why would there have to be scars? So he got an infection and after taking medication, it healed. The nerves took longer to regenerate. I severed the nerves in my wrist and lost feeling in most of my right hand. The doctor who did the surgery told me although the would would heal in a few weeks, the nerves take much longer, in this case, about a year and a half. And that is what happened.

    Why would anyone attribute this to the supernatural?

    This is nothing more than a classic case of an argument from ignorance, essentially, " I don't know how it happened, therefore god."
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,818
    How are you correcting me?

    You use miracle for divine and things like that. Things Im "robbing" from you type of thing. Never heard such a thing.

    The usages: is dependent on langauge, culture, and common use of the word. English can use deity, god, and divine in ways that have nothing to do with religion. Miracles in English czn be liked to fairies and magic and other cases just seeing a baby born or the OP example.

    The word you are arguing about has many usages especially by country. You have surface dictionary definition of the word.

    Its not like the word wall which has a static meaning...well, if not referring to wall flower or wallstreet for that matter.

    You have to go beyond that.

    Have you experienced a miracle before?
     
  8. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    And you want ME to re-read YOUR posts?

    Possibly, but I was under the influence of LSD at the time, so it's also possible that I'm just ignorant to the natural explanation of the event.

    At the time, I believed that hallucinogenic drugs were valid tools for achieving spiritual insight, a la the Native American practices of using psilocybin and mescaline for holy ceremonies and rituals--and that is how I used them, with the intention of determining spiritual truths, not just to "party."

    So there was this one night when I was struggling with whether or not to retain Christianity as my primary framework for interpreting spirituality, and while under the influence, I tried the ol' "open the Bible to any page and put your finger on a verse for inspiration" trick--but I never got to putting my finger on a verse. When I opened the Bible, one verse appeared to me as if it was in boldface type--and I don't have a Bible that uses boldface type for any kind of emphasis. I looked at the back of the page, to see if there was a picture or other dark block that might make the words on the other side seem darker, but the other side of the page just had normal print on it.

    I was familiar with the type of hallucinations that LSD typically produced--very fluid, shifting representations of reality--but this was not like that. The words that appeared in boldface were distinct, the emphasis was not moving around to other words--it stayed in one place--and it encompassed one single, distinct verse--1 John 2:27 (I was using the Amplified Bible):

    "But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do]."

    The perception persisted even after closing the Bible and looking up the verse a few more times--but the next day, the verse appeared normal, in type indistinguishable from the rest of the page again.

    I have never seriously considered abandoning Christianity since then.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,818
    Well, there ya go. Sounds like the same line of thought in the OP. Before I was christian, I was walking in the city from work. A lot of homeless people around here. One occasion I was walking and saw this on a cardboard a person was holding. Many have things written like need money but this in just had one verse: Galations 2:20

    I was crucified in christ. The life I lived is no longer I, but christ who lives in me. Insofar, I live not for myself but for the son of god.

    A year or so later, I became Catholic. The sacraments were miracles so was my spiritual growth both explained by natural causes. Coincedence happen like in your story is the same coinsedence that happen in another persons experiences. We all live in a world thst is not all explained by natural causes. Your definition may have to do with god but the fact is there is no god nor supernatural in the definition of miracles.

    That being the case, your miracle experience is just as good as mine. We arent aliens to each other. I dont attribute it to god. You probably do.

    Nothing wrong with that. The word miracle isnt owned by one faith neither is god nor marriage for that matter. Enjoy life for its unseen things that influenced the seen rather than defining things supernatural and divine apart from natural causes. To me, that depreciates life.

    But Im never rude about it. Good you have an experience. Not many people do.

    Edit.
     
  10. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Agreed. Well, partially agreed, anyway. Miracles need have nothing to do with any god. But they DO have to do with the supernatural--because if it's not supernatural, it's natural--and therefore, not miraculous.

    As I've said before, my definition is the same as yours--something that can't be explained by natural causes. Your mistake is thinking that just because you don't know the natural explanation, that there isn't one--and for everything you have cited so far, there is a natural explanation--not even a complicated one.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,818
    I do not seperate the the two. If there is one, so be. If there isnt, so be. I wouldnt Know until I figure it out myself. I dont all of the sudden believe god (or supernatural) happen just because I cant explain it. We have coinsedences all the time in your case and mine but what makes it a miracle is not so much the dictionary definition, wed both be wrong, but the context and way we interpret our experiences. It becomes personal

    Beyond the cultural non static dictionary definition.

    I just dont see life and natural causes mundane. Given I dont see that, how can I logically understand the difference when I need to know the mundane in order to know what is a miracle, magic, or just plain life.

    I need that mundane prerequiste belief to understand what you mean by miracld. I dont have that.
     
  12. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    And therein lies your error. Natural events have natural explanations. Miracles do not. To use the words correctly, you must separate the two.

    Yes, you do. Maybe not the god part, but if you're claiming that something is a miracle, then you are claiming there is no natural explanation for it--that is, that the explanation is supernatural. You can't have it both ways. Either it's a miracle, in which case the explanation is supernatural, or it's not a miracle. You can't say it's both a miracle and a natural phenomenon.

    No, it's not a matter of personal interpretation. What makes a word meaningful is its dictionary definition. We would not both be wrong by appealing to the dictionary definition; I would be right, and you would be wrong.

    Meanings may change, over time, but for now, the meaning of a "miracle" (in the context of this thread) is an event that does not have a natural explanation. It is not a matter of interpretation or personal preference or cultural bias.

    Oh good, you're introducing another word that you don't seem to understand. Sigh. The dictionary definition of "mundane" is "lacking interest or excitement; dull." (Well, unless you mean the second definition, but then you would be saying that you see life and natural causes as being "of the heavenly or spiritual world, rather than the earthly one," and that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.)

    Just because the natural world is not miraculous doesn't mean that it's not interesting or exciting. As I said before, the physical universe is pretty amazing--it's just not miraculous, by definition. But whether you see life and natural causes as interesting or not, what you do have to see them as is "NATURAL"--and therefore, not miraculous.

    No, you do not need to know what is uninteresting or unexciting in order to know what is natural and what is not.
     
  13. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Oh no. You can't weasel your way out of reality with a bunch of hand-waving and misdirection. I intend to continue returning you to the fact(s) of your error(s) until you stop pretending that your position is rationally defensible (or at least until you prove me wrong by defending it rationally).

    Yep; or errors, as the case may be.

    Well, that's why you should read MY post, now isn't it--so that you can understand the error(s)? You're clearly not acknowledging them on your own.

    ERROR!

    Nope, that is EXACTLY what "supernatural" means!

    Circle of Life, Lion King, Hakuna Matata, whatever. The universe DOES have a starting point (and this is true even if you believe in and endless cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches accordioning back and forth in time) and the process by which the universe started is either a natural one or a supernatural one. If you believe the universe exists by means of a supernatural process--and therefore you can call everything in it a "miracle"--then nothing ever has to be explained by "natural" processes--because there really ARE no natural processes--everything in the universe can be called a miracle! If you believe the universe exists by means of a natural process, then everything that occurs normally, naturally and replicably within it--like waking up in the morning--is a natural process and not a miracle.

    If you observe something that is predicted by natural processes, like your survival until morning, you have no grounds to make the case that you have experienced a miracle. If you observe something that strongly violates natural processes, like someone coming back to life after three days, THEN you might have a miracle on your hands--or there could just be a natural process in play that you don't understand yet, but at least you can make the case.

    ERROR!

    The term "miracle" makes a lot of sense if you abide by its definition. If you can make it mean anything you want, then not so much. Again, you don't have to KNOW the explanation for there to be one. You could be a rock on a mountaintop somewhere, unaware of any natural processes at all, and still, your eventual fall down the mountainside would still be attributable to the natural process of gravity--and not a miracle, in any sense of the word.

    If you'll recall, I didn't assert that it WAS a miracle. You asked if I had ever experienced one, and I said that it was possible that I had, but it was also possible that I just didn't understand the natural explanation for what I had experienced. In any case, what I experienced seemed to strongly violate natural processes, as I understand them; thus, there is the possibility that the experience does not have a natural explanation.

    ERROR!

    Yes, they do; that's how we know what someone means when they use those words.

    deity - a god or goddess

    god - a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers

    miracle - a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws

    blessing - favor or protection given by a deity

    ERROR!

    Seriously? Many philosophers would argue that all we ever HAVE is an eternal "now," but that's kind of beside the point. Are you seriously arguing that the meanings of words are not stable enough to mean the same thing from one day to the next? That one might come here tomorrow and find all these words to be completely nonsensical? And therefore maybe by the time I get done setting you straight, the meaning of "miracle" might have changed in your favor? That's some mighty furious hand-waving.

    So? A miracle still means the same thing now that it did then. Smokescreen penetrated.

    ERROR!

    The "word of God" is of course not a word, but an awful lot of words, forming provocative phrases and entire passages which have challenged scholars to try to interpret them as a whole for centuries. But there's not much disagreement about translating any single word in the Bible. And here, we don't even have to worry about trying to translate the word "miracle" into another language--we're only talking about what it means in the ENGLISH language.

    ERROR!

    You still have not been insulted. You have, however, also been corrected regarding your use of the word "mundane." It's thinking errors like this that make your arguments hard to take seriously.

    You are talking about this block of quoted text:

    "Just because the natural world is not miraculous doesn't mean that it's not interesting or exciting.
    As I said before, the physical universe is pretty amazing--it's just not miraculous, by definition. But whether you see life and natural causes as interesting or not, what you do have to see them as is "NATURAL"--and therefore, not miraculous."

    Please tell me what you see in there that leads you to believe I was personally insulting you.

    I was explaining to you the ramifications of using "mundane" to describe the world--that you were saying that it was not interesting or exciting--but then showed you how it didn't matter if that's what you meant or not. So if I put words in your mouth by explaining what your use of "mundane" implied, then at least my criticism is not leveled against those words. My criticism is that you refuse to see natural causes as being natural. So your accusation that I've built and attacked a straw man here is in...

    ERROR!

    ERROR!
    ERROR!
    ERROR!


    Let's review.

    I did not claim it WAS a miracle, I didn't claim that it was from God, I didn't claim there was no natural cause. I explicitly stated just the opposite, in fact.

    ERROR!

    Can you support your claim? Name one thing in this physical universe that has no source--i.e., something that comes from nothing. If you can name one, then you do indeed have a pretty good argument for a miracle on your hands. But... that still wouldn't mean that EVERYTHING qualifies as a miracle, even if some things do.

    ERROR!

    No they don't. Natural is still natural, and supernatural is still supernatural. If they were the same, they wouldn't be different.

    Can you support your claim? Can you point to any text of mine that attacks you personally, rather than criticizing your ideas? Or is this just another...

    ERROR!
     
    #93 Axe Elf, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,818
    What the hell????

    You must have a passion for this word :rolleyes:

    Im scared to reply. Ha. Youd probably go through another rant instead conversing like a normal person word. RF isnt an excuse to be rude. :confused: Sometimes I wonder.
     
  15. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,896
    Ratings:
    +1,806
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Jesus is alive, and He is the same yesterday and today. Miracles have not ceased.

    You don't have to believe it, but for those who receive it, receive the blessing.

    Scriptural reference? Was Mary and Martha unbelievers when Jesus raised Lazarus?

    Beg to differ. "In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (in Greek her name is Dorcas); she was always doing good and helping the poor.". Notice that Dorcas WAS A DISCIPLE. The believers went to Peter and God raised her from the dead.

    58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief."]

    It is self explanatory

    Exactly. FAITH drew it out. Heb 11:6 "WITHOUT faith it is impossible to please God". The others touched but without faith.

    You missed the point. You said the Holy Spirit cannot fail... The apostles failed (not the Holy Spirit) and so can we. We have a part to play.

    I agree about the angel of light. Satan always tries to imitate what God does. Which means God is still doing it.

    We haven't broken any of God's laws because we still follow what Jesus said "Preach the Gospel and heal the sick".
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,896
    Ratings:
    +1,806
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Hardly. The doctors EXPECTED to see evidence of a throat condition. I will opt for the view of the doctors who were experts in their field.

    Thus... supernatural
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,818
    TONE IT DOWN AND THEN TALK
    Tone it down and then talk

    Nope. Miracle, like god and blessings, are defined by culture and origin of language. Toemayto, tomatoe

    Don't need to yell. I get it. :rolleyes:

    Thank you for the insult. :rolleyes:

    Thanks??

    Seems to be a problem for you. Got to understand language and culture before you attack my facts.

    Then why are you attacking me and what I say?

    You got to go deeper.

    So you know everything about life?

    I know what I experience doesn't have natural causes. I also believe anything I do is a miracle because life has no natural cause. It has no cause.

    You're not getting my point. Looker deeper. See the big picture. :rolleyes:

    Thanks for the insult. We disagree doesn't mean you are ignorant nor does it mean I am. Cut it.

    HAHA Okay. Believe that.

    Thanks for the insult.

    Why caps it? Why bold?

    Unnecessary. :(

    If I knew, I might see if there are natural causes. Since I don't know (like your experience) and there are no natural causes I can pick up to justify whether I know or not, the best I can do is go by what I DO know and put the pieces together. I don't use the word miracle a lot; but, since that's a hot word for you, I'll use something else.

    Thanks for the insult.

    I not someone who insults; so, I'll say no comment instead.

    The colors are distracting your point.

    You can do that without colors, bold, and caps though. No calling me ignorant and no teaching me something you think I don't know.

    Then we can talk.

    In context.

    Hmmm. (Looks over your thread) No comment.

    Better way to phrase it: We have the same definition, and I notice the definition you use is incorrect. What you are describing does have natural causes. How do you connect your experiences as miracles.

    This addresses my statements not me specifically and not my knowledge level.

    No insults. Address the information.

    NOW THAT is an insult.

    Read your posts, tone it down, then come back to me.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    53,709
    Ratings:
    +12,684
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    "Miracle" to me implies that God suspended the normal laws of nature to make it happen.

    Someone who appreciates beauty can just say "this thing is beautiful." It's the person who can't appreciate the thing's beauty who says "this thing is a miracle, therefore it's beautiful."
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    53,709
    Ratings:
    +12,684
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    It's you who's making the claims here, not God.
     
  20. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    53,709
    Ratings:
    +12,684
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    If it's unexplained, how could you possibly know that it has no natural causes?
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...