1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured As long unexplained miracles happen, there will always be believers

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by KenS, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Events you are describing are fortuitous, to be sure, and if there is an omniscient God, then we can ultimately attribute each of these things (as well as anything else that ever happens) to the intention of God--but they are all still fully explainable by natural laws, and thus by definition they cannot be miracles.
     
  2. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,111
    Ratings:
    +1,881
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    And I FULLY..... disagree.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Well, you've certainly spent a lot of time and effort trying to justify your disregard, if not ignorance, of the definition. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen someone so passionately invested in using a word incorrectly before. Kudos to the strength of your will, if not the acuity of your reasoning.
     
  4. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Well, you and @Carlita can form a movement to redefine the word "miracle" and then you'll both be right--but until then, you'll have to be content with your unjustified chutzpah in taking liberties with the English language.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,111
    Ratings:
    +1,881
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    noun
    1.
    an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpassesall known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernaturalcause.
    2.
    such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.

    3.
    a wonder; marvel.
    4.
    a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality:

    a miracle of modern acoustics.

    I think it just might be your definition that is creating the disconnect.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,837
    Ratings:
    +7,837
    Hm. I was about to quote exactly the content and source: events unexplained by natural causes...from the dictionary, but @KenS beat me to it.

    Reread the post you replied to.

    Miracles are events that happen outside of natural causes

    The definition is subjective depending on the person. Ken believes miracles come from god; I do not. Some miracles are right in front of your face but to be grateful you got to see it beyond mundane "how are you?"

    Shift your worldview and everything you are grateful for---》that wholeness and gratitude cant be explained by natural causes. Science and psychologist can study it. Our upbringing and religions can influence it, but its not a religous word and it does not need to be supernatual for it to "not be explained by natural causes."

    You can make the word as grand as you like but dont discredit the people who see miracles in everything in life not just walking on water and seeing statues cry.

    Read this before replying. Its short.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    4,364
    Ratings:
    +2,580
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    But if I asked you to specify the amount of food available and the amount actually consumed, it would all be a matter of impression, not of data, no?
     
  8. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    No, I think it is the choice of definition that you and Carlita are choosing that is creating the disconnect. You are still not using the word as it is being used in this post--"As long as unexplained miracles happen, there will always be believers." I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that they were not talking about the "miracle" of waking up in the morning, or a great-sounding speaker. I'm certain they were not talking about miracles in the third or fourth definition that you quoted, but in the first and second definitions--something that cannot be explained by natural laws, specifically as described in the second definition, as an event that cannot be explained by natural laws and is attributed to God.

    As I said before to Carlita, if you want to use "miracle" in the third or fourth sense, then you're talking about the "It's a miracle I got home before the game started" kinds of miracles.
     
  9. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Now you're cooking with gas. So that disqualifies most of your examples of "miracles."
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,837
    Ratings:
    +7,837

    Why are you debating?

    1. Miracles are unexplained events not explained by natural causes
    2. Some see the cause is god or supernatural
    3. I do not (just because we cant explain it doesnt mean its divine)
    4. Ive had experiences unexplained; thry are miracles
    5. Ive seen and see miracles in life WE can not explain; I am thankful

    Whether you see life as a miracle or not is on you.

    Dont discedit anyone who wishes to see life in all of its unexplainable mystery whether mundane or divine.

    I see no difference between the two.

    Debating isnt arguing.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,837
    Ratings:
    +7,837
    Also, I think its the second post, I asked Ken if he sees a difference in mundane and divine. The convo started there. You are fussing over an convo without knowing the reason I asked the question.
     
  12. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    The problem comes in when you start calling things that ARE explainable by natural causes (like waking up in the morning, surviving a surgery or a medical condition, getting money just when you needed it, etc.) "miracles" as if they could NOT be explained by natural causes.

    If you have something that cannot be explained by natural causes, then by all means, you have a miracle on your hands. It's just that so far, you have not provided any examples of anything that could not be explained by natural causes. In fact, in most cases, it is these natural events themselves--consciousness, sunrises, etc.--that you are wanting to call "miracles." Waking up every morning isn't an "unexplainable mystery"; the natural processes that lead to that event can be described quite exhaustively.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,337
    Ratings:
    +4,795
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I believe it is. Miracles of the kind performed by Jesus and his apostles do not happen today. The holy spirit does not fail and there are other explanations that fit what people are experiencing more accurately.

    Miracles were performed only for the benefit of unbelievers. This was to give glory to God, not Jesus.

    Matthew 15:30-31..."And great crowds came to him, bringing with them the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute, and many others, and they put them at his feet, and he healed them, 31 so that the crowd wondered, when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled healthy, the lame walking, and the blind seeing. And they glorified the God of Israel."

    There were no miracles performed in the first century that were for the benefit of those who already believed that Jesus was the Messiah. This scripture in context does not mean what you imply.

    Matthew 13: 53-58 (ESV)..."And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there, 54 and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.” 58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief."

    Where was he? And what did he say about those people as to why he chose not to perform miracles there?
    He was in the place where he grew up. The people there just saw him as "the carpenter's son". Jesus was not "honored" there because of their familiarity with him. His own family members (apart from his mother) did not yet accept him as Messiah. Their witness would have to wait a while until Jesus' works were more widely broadcast and their pre-conceptions broken down.

    The woman in this account had exhausted all her finances trying to get healed from her affliction, but she only got worse. She had heard about the teacher and felt confident that this one could heal her.
    Mark 5:27..."She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well."

    What did Jesus say?
    Mark 5:30..."Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?”

    Once she confessed, Jesus said...“Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”

    He did not heal her intentionally....her faith drew the healing power from him. He felt the power go out of him.

    So again, I believe you are misreading the scripture.

    This account (in plain English ESV) reads..."And someone from the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. 18 And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.”

    This was the expulsion of a demon....a particularly powerful one. When Jesus expelled it, the boy appeared to be dead, but Jesus raised him up, cured of his affliction.
    Later it says...."And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?” 29 And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.”

    Jesus was the teacher and the one from whom the power over these things came. It was only in his name that the disciples were able to perform these miracles in the first place. This incident shows that sometimes appeal to a higher authority was needed. The demons always had to do what Jesus commanded. The account about the demons entering the herd of swine demonstrates this. (Matthew 8:28-33)
    Pentecost was when the disciples received the holy spirit individually. The gifts that they received then, helped them to keep going in the work that Jesus assigned to them. (Matthew 28:19-20)

    Sorry, but I believe that context shows us that your own conclusions are mistaken.

    The devil has not changed his tactics since Eden. He lies and deceives and paints himself as "an angel of light" to get people to believe his side of the story. He puts temptations in our path in an attempt to create a wedge between us and God.

    One of his favorite tactics is to sever people's relationship with God by getting them to break God's laws.
    Just before entering the Promised Land, many of the Israelite men fell away to the immoral advances of the Moabite women who supposedly came to offer them friendship and comfort. They were seduced into joining in false worship and immoral sex. 24,000 lost their lives on that occasion.

    It is interesting that when Jesus comes as judge, "many" who claim him as their "Lord" will be rejected as "workers of lawlessness". (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus says that he NEVER knew these ones.....yet they seem unaware of why Jesus is rebuking them. They even enumerate the many things they did "in his name", "powerful works" being one of their appeals. They are 'good Christians' in their own eyes, but not in the eyes of God. How can this be? They are hoodwinked by the devil because of who and what, they want to believe.

    It is because of the foretold apostasy that was to take place after the death of Jesus and the apostles....and after the last book of the Bible was penned. What happened to Judaism, was repeated by Christendom. Just as the Jews saw no wrong in what they were doing and teaching in Jesus' day, so Christendom sees no wrong in her teachings today either. It is all they have ever known. Each had slowly led their flocks down the wrong path by introducing "the traditions of men" and teaching them as doctrines.

    Only when a person knows the truth, can they escapes from "Babylon the great"...the devil's world empire of false religion. (Revelation 18:4-5) Unless people know what Babylon the great is, they will remain her prisoner and continue their lawlessness. [​IMG]
     
    #73 Deeje, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,837
    Ratings:
    +7,837
    We see life/the source as an unexplainable cause. Whatever results come from life whether it be the OP scenario or mine at the source we dont know what exactly the cause. Natural causes according to people are just what we can study and explain.

    Doctors do not play god. Many admit (as to me) theyre just guessing.

    The miracle is life. We cant explain it. We can draw edjumacated conclusions based on our criteria. Like the dice with one side two dots, while we know most of the time the average of all three fives will be face up is high. There is ALWAYS an X factor.

    Ken sees the X factor as god.

    I see no reason to define it. The miracle is how everything function because of it. Mundane is not mundane when you see life itself come from unexplained causes not just the causes you can test under a microscope.

    Not a problem. The OP isnt looking for science. Rephrase your side to a productive argument (statement/claim of controversy) with support without attacking your illusion of an "opponent".
     
  15. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    My only "opponent" here is the incorrect usage of the word "miracle" in this context. You are determined to use it incorrectly, and justify that by claiming that all kinds of things that we CAN explain by natural laws are somehow "unexplainable mysteries," but ignorance of the explanation doesn't mean that they are unexplainable by natural laws. Anything natural (like life) is, by definition, explainable by natural laws.

    You want to disagree, but it amounts to nothing more than stamping your foot and insisting.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,837
    Ratings:
    +7,837
    You getting fustrated over nothing.

    Miracles are unexplained events with no natual causes.

    Thats it. Very clean cut definition.

    I see miracles in everything because, unless you know 100% about life, there is always an X factor. I choose to be grateful for that X factor. Its the "unexplained" cause of daily events we take for granted.

    You can call the mundane anything you like. The very fact I dont know everything makes my life a miracle. What you say sounds like magic. Life doesnt work that way. Same with the OP. In my opinion I see no difference in the OP and mundane. Thats why I asked him the question. What he discribes sounds like magic.

    But we dont discredit each other just because he defines it by god snd I do not. Miracles like the word god and love, doesnt have static definitions.

    Soon as you see that, the futher you can get pass definitions to support why and how miracles have to be non-mundane beyond quoting the dictionary.
     
  17. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,405
    Ratings:
    +1,618
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Yep, and then you go straight forward and violate it.

    It doesn't matter if you KNOW the explanation or not--if something is natural, then by definition, it can be explained by natural causes--and therefore, by your own definition ("unexplained events with no natural causes"), it CANNOT be a miracle.

    Just because a child doesn't understand why the ball lands on the ground every time they throw it up in the air does not mean that it is a miracle. The behavior of the ball is explained by the natural law of gravity, regardless of the child's ignorance of it. Now, if the ball stayed there hovering in the air when it was thrown upwards, without being acted upon by any other force, including gravity, then you have a miracle.

    Not at all. It just makes you ignorant of the natural laws that govern your life.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,837
    Ratings:
    +7,837
    What in the world is the issue???

    You told us your opinion, change your tone, dont insult, read our post with a fresh eye not what you are expecting.
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,837
    Ratings:
    +7,837
    Hope this isnt how you speak to strangers in person :( Online doesnt excuse you from being insultful.
    Then what in the world are you talking about?

    Like the word god and deity and love, the definitions range by culture and language. Check out the definition of marriage back in the early 90s and now. Its not a clear cut word either. Language defintions like abstracts and religious words are influenced by culture. Name one definition of god that doesnt have a slant to the culture and religion deacribing it in Its own words. Miracles are no different.

    I dont see the point youre making. I see everything as a miracle because I dont know the source/the unnatural cause behind why life and things exist. Some say god. Some, I dont know, E.T. Who knows. Unless you know, it will be a miracle (the event that lead us here) that cant be explained by natural causes. They are trying. So far, we know life comes from the sea. We havent bridge the gap between neanderthals and people today, though.

    This is an insult. I see atheist attack believers all the time with this nastiness as if their definitions are supposed to change to fit how you interpret it.

    That and if you want to converse,

    Take a step beyond insults and find out what I do know about the natural laws. You attacking me as if Im a believer of some sort. Now I know how theists feel :(
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,664
    Ratings:
    +4,650
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    No, all I have is your description, ad no documentation by an outside unbiased source.
     
Loading...