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Featured As long unexplained miracles happen, there will always be believers

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by KenS, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Sounds more like a Thomas - "I will not believe unless I see it with my own eyes". but blessed are those who have not seen but believe.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Insufficient information for an anecdotal story, Solution: Add water and stir.
     
  3. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    What I don't get in all of this is why do "believers" need miracles in order to have faith? Is that really faith then? Does the mind need to be titillated by displays of magic in order for the heart to sense and intuit God?

    That all sounds rather fickle to me, a lack of faith that needs some "miracle" to believe in, rather than resting in a silent knowing of the heart and soul. To me, miracles do not support faith. Love does. Life itself alone does. I don't need to see spontaneous regeneration of amputated limbs in order to know God is.
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I'm assume this is your regular, daily personality conversation style??

    Miracle is an event of something unexplained by natural causes. I know. I'm not ignorant of the definition.

    I don't see god specifically have anything to do with miracles. It's not part of any religion. It's just life.

    1. To wake of everyday? The gift of life! Why wouldn't that be a miracle. Doctors can't predict 100% that we will always be healthy. I had 20/20 and 20/30 vision almost fifteen years ago. Perfect vision especially for my being so quote on quote young. It climbed to 20/30, 20/40. Fine. Blots here and there. Almost ten years ago, it went sharply from 20/40 to 20/50, 20/80. That FREAKED me out. I couldn't see face (and still barely can). My whole hand was distorted. Once a month, by vision would completely go haywire and hit 20/100

    I am only 37 years old, neurological conditions that have nothing to do with the eyes. Yet, I couldn't see. Still can't.

    No eye doctors can figure it out. No psychiatrists. No low vision doctor. Has something to do with sugar but I'm not diabetic either.

    Then something amazing happened. After all the docs test, I just exercised a whole lot and practically took all food from my diet. Lost weight. Got my constant vision. Still can't see without zooming the screen but at least I can see cars crossing the s street and don't use my white cain as much anymore.

    You can call this anything you want, but thinking I'm going blind in a two year stretch, having a nervous break down for another two some odd years, and it clearing up in about a year is pretty darn good to me. Now I am grateful that I can see.

    That is a huge miracle for me. Not because doctors couldn't find out what's wrong and it magically went away. No god. Nothing like that. It happened just because. When we push off things as consequedences, we don't really get that even the little things can be appreciated as miracles. Things that happened we cannot control and cannot be explained by natural causes. We can guess. We can assume. Maybe even a 1% change of error.

    If you had five die with five dots on four of them and four sides of the last and two dots on the last side, you'd think you would almost always get all fives. There is always always a chance you'd get that two up in there. It's something we cannot control whether we get it or not. We have guesses (edjumecated at that) but that's it.

    Since we don't get "twos" often, we think of them as miracles. Getting fives is just as a miracle as getting twos. But if you chose to see miracles having to be something "beyond" and something more "divine" then so be. The definition has nothing to do with divinity. It just means something that happens outside of natural causes. Anything else is purely on the person faith or bias of the person's point of view. Nothing wrong with that.

    Being aware of beauty (not creation) of divine (not god) is like appreciating the five die just as much as the two sided one that comes up rarely. It's literally saying "wow! this is beautiful! This is the miracle of life (what's behind life that makes things do things outside the ordinary and inside the ordinary.) There is no separation between nature and divine. It's all one.

    NATURAL (no need to scream!) natural is just as divine as not natural. I actually don't see the difference, to tell you honestly. Maybe because I don't believe in god, who knows. It doesn't change there is no details behind what isn't natural. It's referring to human's perspective not in general. Life doesn't have miracles. We choose to see what's behind life as a miracle or not. It's up to us.

    Not an enjoyment.

    REAL (or real; no yelling?) miracles? Is there such a thing as real miracles???

    Life in and of itself is a miracle. We experience things that are not all explained by the natural eye. They do not need to be anything spectacular to be a miracle.

    I don't know where I get this from since I live in a miracle-god oriented culture where you have to see jesus walk on water for it to be anything divine, but I guess all my life even if I don't acknowledge it, I know this life is the only one I have and its a full miracle to me. I get it all the time. They aren't isolated events. Natural and not natural. No separation.

    Of course. Our culture doesn't, though. I'm looking at life a bit differently nowadays. Who knows, that person may needed that how are you-that smile. Some people go through a lot of sh/ and just need someone to acknowledge their existence.

    Miraculous is more amazing! type of thing. Miracles don't need to be amazing or wonderful for it to be a miracle (context issues)

    So you can definitely understand life because you have something natural to test it with? Even doctors don't even play god. That's just, silly.

    Now you're getting personal.

    Hey! I'm glad I live a miracle and I am a miracle. I don't question if anyone created me or if I go anywhere after I die. No divine purpose elsewhere. That's what makes life worth living; that's when you actually see miracles as natural part of life when you don't separate your life from spiritual and mundane. Personal experience.

    Don't rob miracles? Religious have their definition. People who are sick have theirs. People who are healthy have theirs. People on the moon have theirs. Some people in poor countries find it a miracle just to believe in god and survive at the same time as finding bare necessities to say alive. It's simultaneous to life. It is life: natural and all.

    Wooah! Set in motion by god? That's not a natural causes. I can't agree with you, but if going by your definition of miracle that ignorant natural causes, then that would be a miracle. The idea there is a god putting something in motion. Why would I know that unless it can be explained by natural causes? That's what you believe.

    You can separate miracles from natural causes if you want. To me, that depreciates life. It robs life of being the miracle as we don't know naturally why we are here nor do some of us really ask it. The fact is, we are.

    They have theories of our natural origins. Others just don't both. Regardless, why would someone personally break a miracle up as divine (in OP) vs. mundane (how are you?)

    Dictionary definition aside, since you mentioned god, your definition seems a bit bias too. I mentioned the dictionary didn't define marriage between two men and two women until almost recently. They still are working on it. It's "that of a traditional marriage." Soon, hopefully, it would be "two people married under law".

    Definitions such as miracles, god, and other words are more subjective to the person's experience. Unlike finding the definition for food or chair, people define it by their experiences and their perspective of life (say belief in god).

    Is marriage between man and woman or is it between two people sharing a legal contract?

    Does a miracle need to be an unexplained event that is put higher or miraculous than other events or could it just be unexplained events regardless of how one interprets it, higher, lower, mundane, or divine?​

    The definitions are still there. Ya'll arguing based on interpretations. That's why I asked the OP the differences. It's all interpretation not the word itself.
     
    #44 Unveiled Artist, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    ???

    What information is lacking? No water was added, they were already out of more mix and the line was obvious. Or is it that you have decided there are no miracles? Is this an example of the hardened heart of unbelief?

    the youth of my church would beg to differ on your interpretation - they were forever sealed with faith that God is real
     
    #45 KenS, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Which is most likely, would you say ─ that
    it was miraculous,
    or that the report is made possible because no one kept an accurate count of the available food and its distribution,
    or that someone colored the tale?
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. My church youth were there serving the food and it was visible to all. It was easy to see by all and was notorious by all.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    You don't need to think that God intervened and temporarily suspended the rules of the universe just for you to make something happen in order to be grateful for it or find it beautiful.

    "Miracles" are for people who can't see see the beauty in mundane things for what it is.
     
  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Of course, in the story, when Thomas asked for evidence, he got it.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    ?? Divine isnt god. If someone cant see the beauty how do you define that as a miracle? Many who see beauty find what they see a miracle whether it has a source depends on the persons belief.

    Usually miracles, the details, are defined person to person regardless if there is a god or just being thankful as its own benefit.

    Dont understand what you mean.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Yes... and if you honestly ask, I'm sure He will show you too. :)
     
  12. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    What happened. Did he grow a new limb out of nothing? Did he get twenty years younger at once? Did he lose his congenital genetic disease, like Down syndrome and such? Was he split from his siamese brother without surgery at all and full magical duplication of the shared organs?

    Or was it just another ordinary and boring "internal medicine" miracle involving cancer, infections, hay fever and such? I cannot open it, but I bet it was an internal medicine case. They always are...God seems to love miracles that are not so spectacular, for some reason.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #52 viole, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    They all may claim to differ, but it does not change anything. Remains undocumented anecdotal claim.
     
  14. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    enable your flash in the browser... then we can talk specifically.
     
  15. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    For you, seeing it yourself will still be anecdotal. But the hungry are very thankful.
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    No, it is not necessary for me to see it myself, but your testimony is highly biased toward miracles, and I prefer outside documentation of the claim. At present your claim of the miraculous fails.
     
  17. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    True, miracles should not be needed to know God. While I believe God does at times accomplish His intended purposes or demonstrate power through miraculous events, nevertheless, as the scriptures says...
    For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Corinthians 5:7).
     
  18. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Ok. he lost his voice. And a miracle recovered it. Wow.

    Internal medicine, as expected.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    The first post is documented.
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    it was..... BEAUTIFUL! Are you happy for him? Imagine that! No voice for three years and not just having it all come back but the doctors couldn't even register that there had been a problem when before they could.

    Just.... miraculous!
    :D
     
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