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Featured As long unexplained miracles happen, there will always be believers

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by KenS, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    There are a lot oxymoronic contradictions of terms here that do not make sense.

    No skeptics do not try and prove their reality is not real. Maybe Hindus and Buddhists, but not skeptics.

    Plato's Cave is a very comfortable cool safe place to be gullible and happy,
     
    #21 shunyadragon, Apr 9, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The topic of miracles is very interesting. There is no doubt in the minds of believers that the miracles of the Bible actually happened and eye witnesses testified as to their authenticity. But only those with eyes of faith will see them as real events. But have you ever asked yourself why those miracles were performed in the first century and why we do not see them performed in the same way today? By "the same way", I mean 100% successful every time with no one complaining about a failure or only a brief suppression of symptoms? And no one accused of not having enough faith. [​IMG]

    If the holy spirit is at work, there can be no failures. All who were brought to Jesus and his apostles were healed....100% cured.

    Matthew 4:23-24..."Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

    24 The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them."

    If that was still available, then every church would be taking in the sick and curing them all, instead of them going to hospitals and dying. A great many people go to healing services in churches that claim to perform healing, only to come away disappointed. How come? There were no disappointments when Jesus or the disciples healed the people.

    It seems obvious to me that these sorts of miracles ceased with the death of the apostles, who were apparently the only ones capable of passing the ability to perform miracles on to others. Why are there are no real miracles mentioned after the first century? What is a "miracle" anyway?

    In drug trials, they do what is called a "double blind study" which means that half of a test group will receive the drug and the other half will receive a placebo....a sugar pill. Why do they perform such studies this way? Because of what they call the "Placebo Effect". It was noticed in these trials that many of those on placebos were cured at a much higher rate than the ones on the actual drug. It wasn't the drug curing them, so what was it? It is thought that there is power of the mind over the body, and simply "believing" that something will cure you can trigger something in the immune system to accomplish the task. Science has not really come up with an explanation, but they are well acquainted with the results.

    It is my belief that many of what churchgoers call "miracles" are actually the result of the placebo effect. And, since many come away without a cure, it fits the scenario of a placebo effect better than the operation of God's spirit, which in Jesus' day never failed.

    What was seen in the first century was merely a demonstration of what will be performed on a grand scale in the new world to come. The dead will be raised, the sick and disabled will be cured and aging and death will be a thing of the past....never to plague mankind again. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    Any supernatural event in these times would not be the result of God's power, but the dark and deceptive power of the devil according to the apostle Paul, who said concerning the end times...."The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 ESV)

    Why would these things be a wicked deception? Because they were designed to deceive people into believing that this power was still available, but that it wasn't 100% successful, making people feel as if they were somehow not good enough for God to heal them. It has destroyed many people's faith, rather than boosting it. God would never do that. The truth is, we have to wait for God's Kingdom to "come" so that his will can "be done on earth as it is in heaven." (Daniel 2:44) All of the real healing will be accomplished then. ( 2 Peter 3:13)

    As wonderful as some miracles seem, do not be fooled.....the devil has power too, (remember Job?) Job's disease was caused directly by satan. If he can cause an affliction, then he can also withdraw it to make some people think they have been cured....but not all. Do you see how his deception is designed to discourage some? It is obvious though, that he can't raise the dead. ....I am sure that the news would cover such amazing events, don't you? So, from what I know of the scriptures, I believe that modern day miracles of the kind performed in the first century, do not happen today. IMO, they are either the placebo effect...or cruel tricks from the devil.
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    What's the difference between an outcome we don't understand, and a miracle?

    How can we tell the difference?
     
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  4. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    I prefer to remain unconvinced of ANY "reality." I mean I think REALITY is out there, but I don't have absolute 100% confidence that my senses perceive it perfectly or that my processing system, with all of its filters, interprets the perceptions correctly. Even formal reasoning systems that don't depend on personal experience can only be trusted insofar as their underlying axioms are as true as they are believed to be. In other words, I feel closer to understanding REALITY because I distrust my understanding of "reality"--I know that the zen that can be spoken is not the true zen.

    For me, skeptical is spiritual--not miserable at all.

    "But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things]" --1 Corinthians 2:15a (Amplified Bible)
     
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  5. Shia Islam

    Shia Islam Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
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    "As long unexplained miracles happen, there will always be believers."

    the above statement is not true..
    first, people will not truly believe in something until they are certainly sure about its truthiness... miracles is a result of the truth..they will not change the reality of the claim..

    Then a miracle is not a phenomenon that lacks explanation...it is a phenomenon with explanation that shows the power of the truth..
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You dont need to be rude about it. :rolleyes: Our days arent promised to us. Our hours or not nor are our mins. One thing about miracles is you get to say thank you everyday you eake up. You get to say think surviving one of the most complicated surgeries. Im grateful that I have some family that care.

    Miracles are being grateful and seeing "divine or beauty" in the mundane things as well as crying statues and saying thann you.

    If you dont give gratitude and see miracles in everyday life not promised to us, thats on you. Some people literally have to see jesus walm on water. If he did something mudane say saying hello how are you, who would believe him.

    It is sad miracles are highlighted especially in our religious history. Its like people only apreciate themselves when they see the impossible happen first.

    See life as you will but dont put me down for gratitude.
     
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Im grateful for waking up, survival brain surgery, have my own roof over my head, church payed for my rent when I was stuck. Mudane things I see as miracles because were not promised today nor tomorrow. To think so is taking life for granted. We dont need to see jesus walk on water and statues cry to know we are blessed with the miracle of life.
     
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  8. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    One man's miracle is another man's unknown... or sometimes known.
     
  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    "This plugin is not supported." Seems I can't watch the video. Can you give a summary?

    I'm especially interested to hear you explain why, in almost the same breath, you say that what the video covers is both unexplained and explained by God. At first glance, it seems like you're contradicting yourself.
     
  10. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    I'm not putting you down for gratitude; I'm not putting you down at all. I'm correcting your usage of the word "miracle." You are using it in a way that is contrary to its popularly accepted meaning.

    Why does it have to be a "miracle" to you that you wake up every day? Isn't it awesome enough for that to happen by natural means? You can be thankful every day you wake up without calling it something that can't be explained by natural means. I survived a triple bypass open heart surgery myself. Maybe that would have been a miracle if the surgery had been performed in the dark by a chimpanzee with a plastic spoon, but as it was, I attribute its success to the skill of my surgeon. I attribute the skill of my surgeon to my God who predestined our interaction, and though I was content to die, were that to be the case, as I took the anesthesia, I am also thankful for the additional days and experiences I have had since then. But I am thankful for a God who has given us the best of all possible universes, not for a "miracle."

    No, I'm sorry, you don't get to just make words mean whatever you want them to mean. Being aware of and deeply awed by the beauty of creation and the divine as reflected in it is a profound experience indeed--but it is not a miracle. The beauty of nature is, by definition, NATURAL!

    I'm not trying to rob your enjoyment of life or the appreciation of the divine--I'm just asking you to respect REAL miracles by not confusing them with naturally-occurring phenomena.

    Surely you wouldn't argue that saying "Hello, how are you?" is miraculous...?

    Fine! Be grateful! Be amazed! Be astonished by the beauty and divinity of creation! But all that stuff is NATURAL. By definition, miracles cannot be explained by natural means. Don't rob miracles of their divinity by making them normal. The fact that life may end at any time doesn't make life (or death) any less natural.

    Sigh. Again, life was produced by natural causes, set in motion by God at the moment of creation. We don't need to see miracles to know that we are lucky to have been given the chance to experience life, that is true--but we do need to see miracles in order to say that we've seen miracles.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The usage or definition is something that happens uexplained by natural laws. Doctors can highly assume we will wake up the next morning. There have been totally healthy people die in their sleep. Then you have people kike my friend who was told she would die of cognitive heart diseas by age fourish. She is thirty six years old. She calls it a blessing. A blue baby and "miracle baby" they call it.

    Things are mundane and taken for granted when we think the natural laws explains future events and conditions. Not many cultures seperate "mundane" life from miracles rather its an extention an embedded part of life. I live in a culture that doesnt give jesus a time or day if he doesnt walk on water or cure the dead. The Church tries to find crying statues and also have qualifications of who can be considered a saint.

    I guess to me unsual events are things we take for granted. Walking on water is magic. Having water for health is a miracle. I just see us taking life for granted. I mean, I woke thinking the day nice and almost got hit by two cars by inches. They had brakes. They drivers have eyes. It wasnt walking on water. Thats all magic. Miracles are beyond that.

    I mean I dont know if its just the religious who define miracles that way. Im not religious but do see a divine. Its not a noun nor pronoun so I dont call it god. It just is. Think Hindu got it closer than abrahamics going off the Hindu convos here and DIRs (those I can keep up with)

    I guess you can define a miracle as magic. The dictionary doesnt go into detail. During the clinton days, the dictionary defined marriage between man and woman. They added today it is also as two men or two women as that of a tradition marriage. My great aunt help write for webster. Its all bias. Tends to lean towards christian definitions. Try to find the definition of god or a deity without it mentioning some sort of monotheism and some context of christianity.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    @Axe Elf

    If I saw jesus raise the dead, Id call that magic.
    If I saw jesus (and anyone) take care of someone until the sick is ready and accepts his own death, Id say thats a blessing
    Some people pray for someones good health. When that person doesnt die they call it a miracle. I call that cheating. Can it what you will but if we need to see statues cry, we are taking life for granted especally with bible things. Thats beyond my comprehension of miracles.

    Id have to address your full post later. Im in transit.
     
    #32 Unveiled Artist, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  13. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Miraculous happening CAN look coincidental. The money that came out of the fish's mouth could be coincidental but was miraculous. When Cornelius sent men to look for Peter, some COULD look at it as coicidental but was miraculous.

    When the doctor told my wife pregnant and I, "Don't come to the next appointment without $100 because this isn't free" and the morning of the appointment someone who did not know that I needed $100 gave me a handshake, it COULD be coincidental but it could ALSO be miraculous.
     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    In as much as I understand the miraculous I cannot be defined as arguing from ignorance. In as much as you don't understand the miraculous, the question would be are YOU arguing from ignorance and therefore are not productive.
     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    If nothing else Occam's Razor applies here, and the miraculous looses.
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    This premise is not correct!

    Matt 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

    Mark 5:31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou,Who touched me?
    (Throngs touched him but only one was healed)

    Mark 9:18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. (the Apostles could not cast him out)

    Therefore your conclussion is based on a faulty premise.

    Yes, Satan can manifest himself. But notice that in Job he only came to steal, kill and destroy but Jesus came to give life and life in abundance. He heals all who are oppressed of the Devil
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    ignorance gone to seed?
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The above does not make sense

    Attributing a cause to something because it is unknown is classical 'Arguing from Ignorance' by definition. Your response is also a classic 'To Quoque' (you too) Adhominem fallacy.
     
  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Yes, that is your problem of 'Appealing to ignorance' to justify the unknown as miraculous.
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that every situation can be quantified but some are obviously miraculous. When the fortified mush was being served to hundreds who were marooned because of Hurricane Mitch in Honduras and it was obvious that the lines were longer than what food was available and Tom Shaw goes off and begins to heave in tears crying out to God and as he is doing it, without him knowing, the food continues to remain available, dish after dish until the last person was served... I think we can deduce it was miraculous.
     
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