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Featured As in Adam all die (what about Eve?)

Discussion in 'Theism' started by idea, Jul 31, 2020.

  1. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Not sure where to post this. What are Christian views on Eve's role?
    A perfect life for a perfect life - but there were two perfect lives in Eden? etc.
    Just curious.
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Good question....

    As free willed moral agents in full control of their faculties...with no defects or impediments, both Adam and his wife were not victims of a sinful nature, so their choices were wilful and deliberate acts based on the workings of their own minds and hearts.

    Why did the devil target the woman and not Adam first?
    Because Adam was better educated than his new wife. He had waited a long time for her and he was besotted with his new mate.

    Satan was assigned as a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden, (this is a guardianship role) which placed him right there observing all that was taking place. He saw Adam's reaction to receiving his wife, and plotted his course accordingly.

    The devil targeted the woman to get to the man, thus separating them from their Creator.
    He convinced the woman that she would be better off if she ate the fruit because then she would be like God, knowing good and bad for herself. He also lied about the penalty. So she was deceived and she ate.

    1 Timothy 2:13-14....
    "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor."

    She knew the penalty but believed the lie......Adam was not deceived, but deliberately took the fruit to join his wife in rebellion and eventual death. Which is exactly what the devil was hoping for.

    There were several scenarios that could have taken place.....
    Exercising free will, the woman chose to disobey but she did not have to. She repeated what her husband had told her about the forbidden fruit, so she could have told the serpent to get lost.....but she didn't, so her deliberate actions merited the death penalty.

    Her husband could have refused to take the fruit from her, and Adam would have lost his wife, but not his own life. In time God would have probably provided a new mate with Eve's conduct used as a warning example of where disobedience to God can take you.

    But the devil hoped to separate both of them from God so that he could then have them and all their children serve him as a god, creating his own personal empire.....it is apparently an ambition that he sought after observing the creation of lower intelligent creatures who could see him as a god.

    The Creator's words to the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28, were a thinly veiled address to the devil...
    "‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
    “You were the model of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
    You were adorned with every precious stone. . . .

    They were prepared on the day you were created.
    14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
    You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.
    15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
    Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . .

    Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
    You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor."


    This once glorious creature was corrupted by his own beauty.....and wanted to be worshipped.

    What those three rebels did had to be undone by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
     
  3. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Before there was love, there was silence
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    Eve's role in what? In the biggest picture, she's the mother of us all. I don't agree with the sexist interpretation of blaming her more than Adam for the fall of man. It's unjust. I personally prefer the Islamic take where they both repented and are basically recognized as saints and friends of God (although the Catholic Church actually recognizes both Adam and Eve as saints). After all, they're pretty much metaphors for all humans and our weaknesses.
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hmmm...that's interesting. I wonder where they got that idea? Its not in the Bible.

    Making heroes out of villains is not something God has ever done according to my studies. Since the first humans were not burdened with a sinful nature like they handed onto their children, there is actually no basis to forgive them. The angels that followed satan are likewise up for permanent elimination from existence. That is true justice. Mercy is given only when it is merited. There was not one word of remorse expressed by either of them, nor was a single sacrifice offered in apology. They knew what the penalty meant.
     
  5. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Before there was love, there was silence
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    I don't believe in sola scriptura.
     
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  6. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    In traditionnal Islamic beliefs, the Old Testament and the New Testament as you know them are the work of corrupt and imperfect people who picked and chose from the prophets of God techings, twisted their words and deeds when they penned them down. In other words, they think your Bible is filled with lies, half-truth, omissions and, sometimes, kernels of truth and that the only perfect revelations from God comes through the Qu'ran and his last prophet Muhammad. That you don't find in your holy scriptures their teachings and their version of those events is only proof that they are indeed corrupted.
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Fair enough......I have to go on the biblical examples which tell us how God dealt with disobedience humans in the OT, and how he deals with disobedient angels in the NT...how else can you come to accurate conclusions?

    Christ came to die for the children of Adam, born in sin through no fault on their part. How is there a basis for perfect creatures to sin and be forgiven?
     
  8. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Good heavens you talk some absolute nonsense, Adam died at the age of 930 in the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit, that day of one thousand years is followed by the seventh day of one thousand years which is the great Sabbath, the day of the Lord of one thousand years which is the reality of the weekly Sabbath, of which the weekly Sabbath is but a shadow of the future reality.

    When Eve asked the dying Adam when she would follow him, she was told in six days, or six periods of one thousand year she also would die

    When the thousand year of the rule of Christ on the earth is finished, heavenly fire, as revealed in Zephaniah 1: 2-3,, will incinerate all physical life forms on earth, and Eve, who is the pregnant and androgynous body of mankind, in whom the Son of man is developing, will be reunited with her Lord, and the umbilical cord will be broken and the 'SON of Man" will be born.
     
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  9. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Speaking as an expert? :D
     
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  10. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    All die, including plants and animals, because of the laws of physics.

    If there was ever a time in the history of the world that things didn't die, life on earth would be impossible.
     
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  11. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    As in Adam all die is a reference to the mortality mankind is heir to as a result of being just another earthly creature. It doesn’t imply Adam the man as opposed to Eve the woman.

    Christianity has always had a complex view of Adam and Eve, very much as @Saint Frankenstein says. the Catholic Exultet, sung at the Easter Vigil, speaks of felix culpa, o happy fault, that gave us so great a redeemer. This idea is picked up in a number of Christmas carols: blessed be the time that apple taken was, therefore we moun singen Deo Gratias.

    After all, the sin was what gave Man knowledge of good and evil - making us moral adults, in other words.

    The whole Genesis myth is multi - layered. And I’ve always had a soft spot for Eve.
     
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  12. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    What do you mean by a perfect life for a perfect life?

    The garden of Eden is a place where animals talk, where knowledge can come from eating. There is no law there, so nudity and other sins do not exist. There is no killing. There is no death. The two people there are, however, incompetent. They have not eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. Eve sees the fruit is nourishment and eats, and then she understands good & evil. She then gives to Adam, so Adam understands, too. Then they have the power of the gods, the power to choose right from wrong. It is up to you to decide if that was a mistake, "Child of Eve." We couldn't make the choice if they hadn't taken the fruit.

    The story poses a question indirectly. "Is it better to know or not to know?" "Is it worth mortality, suffering, death?" "Should we shake off the judgment of gods?" The answer is rhetorical, because the Jews believe the law is good. The answer to the question must be "Yes it is worth any price." That's what I think the story is saying.
     
    #12 Brickjectivity, Aug 1, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  13. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I find the story of Eve fascinating. As Deeje mentioned, she was deceived. I like to look at that portion because if we can find out how she was deceived, we can eliminate some suffering in our own lives.

    This is what God said, " Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    This is what Eve said, "Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

    I noticed the difference. Eve added to what God had said. Like any scheme, you have to convince someone that a lie is a truth if you are going to take advantage of that person.

    God never said you can't touch it. Now, the Serpent can begin to catch the fish with the dangling lie at the end of the fishing line.

    Next, the evil one begins to seed doubt into Eve. Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Here they have perfect peace, the whole of the earth and the bounty thereof, a relationship with God that Satan didn't have, having it all wasn't enough. He made her think that the 5 drops of water that was missing in a full glass meant that the glass was completely empty. (I wonder how many people are upset because they don't have what someone else has and become bitter instead of rejoicing in what they DO have and being content)

    So she touches the apple and nothing happened. Of course nothing happened because God never said she couldn't touch it. But in her mind, for lack of knowledge and for not studying the word of God, God must have lied because nothing happened. So if she touched it and nothing happened, she took the next step and bit on the hook of the lie and ate the fruit.

    In other words, if we believe a lie is true, suffering has now started.

    A good example: People say, "God has put this sickness on you to teach you something" - something that is nowhere to be found in scripture when in reality God want people to be healed. Someone believes this lie and death slowly begins to envelope them.

    Or, "God is punishing you for all you did wrong", causing people to think that God goes around with a big bat to smack you when you do wrong when in reality Jesus already took the beating so that you would be free of all condemnation and thus, because of religious erroneous thinking, suffering continues.
     
  14. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Of course, though I would rather say the nature of biology. I’m not sure any law of physics implies organisms must die - or not directly.

    In any case, I think the OP was going somewhere else with the quotation.
     
  15. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Entropy. Living things increase entropy by breaking down what they consume into simpler elements, ultimately releasing the energy contained in matter.
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I'm not at all sure what you're asking or, for that matter, why you are focusing on "Christian views" of Jewish scripture.

    Like Adam, Eve is a character in an origin myth often interpreted in such a way as to cast her as the person primarily responsible for the origin of sin.
     
  17. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    A way of dealing with cognitive dissonance: why am I not a better person?
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I don't think so.
     
  19. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Yes but entropy does not explain death, or not directly, surely?

    The growth of organisms shows how they can create highly ordered systems and structures, by exporting entropy into their environments, to compensate for the reduction of entropy within the organism.

    I suppose that senescence due to accumulation of damage to the cells can be thought of as brought about by processes of physics (e.g. cosmic rays) and chemistry( oxidative and other free radical damage) and so on.
     
  20. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    As Moses dreams....genesis....and death.
     
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