As a Christian, what specifically do you believe? And why?

[Immortal Awakened]

As evidenced in previous posts, the term "christian" is meaningless. Everyone defines it in whatever way they wish. Instead of such a generic term, using their denomination would generate greater understanding (e.g. LDS, Catholic, Muslim, etc.)

As such, guess there is no such thing as "true" or "false" Christian since anything goes.

so youre not calling yourself a christian anymore? i stopped calling myself a christian a long time ago; when i had formerly called myself a christian, people would just assume they knew my beliefs (whether they were christian or not), because christians characteristically believe certain things; which can be expected, i guess; if someone calls themself a christian, then they associate themselves with the belief systems of any others who profess to be christians, insofar as most people on the outside wont care to differentiate one christian from another

other christians merely assumed that i believed the same as they did, if i called myself a christian; now i prefer not to be associated with judgmental god concepts, as i believe that christians commonly misrepresent the god of the bible; i found that the god concept which the organized religion had sold me had been misrepresented to me, so im now agnostic

 

[Immortal Awakened]

Are you saying that division of people is good?

no, its very bad

I think that we should just accept the fact that no one has a clue about God, as of now, and just accept the fact that we need to gather more information and further enlighten ourselves to get a better understand of God.

i dont believe that our finite minds can possibly grasp an infinite god; thats why im agnostic, which i suppose is merely another label; i meet many christians who dont really know what an agnostic is either

The world divided is the worst possible situation.

i fully agree; thats why labels arent the best thing

 

[Melody]

so youre not calling yourself a christian anymore?

For the sake of clarity, no. I do not believe what other "christians" believe and do not wish to be defined in such a manner.

because christians characteristically believe certain things; which can be expected, i guess; if someone calls themself a christian, then they associate themselves with the belief systems of any others who profess to be christians, insofar as most people on the outside wont care to differentiate one christian from another

But they don't and that is essentially the problem. There are some pretty wide fundamental gaps in the various "christian" beliefs. They can't all be christian since that would mean they all have basically the same "christian" beliefs. Since some christians think Jesus may not have lived but the idea is good, some believe he existed but wasn't God (or the Son of God), some believe He was the son of God but not God, some believe he was God....and so on. How can they all be "Christian"? They can't....so the word becomes meaningless.

 

[BeautifulMind]

Quoted from Merlin: "You might find lots of replies from people telling you they know everything about God's purpose. Because he has told them (or one of their leaders) personally."

Since I don't know how to add quotes =P.

But are their supposed encounters a reliable source? Plus, people, now-a-days, are looking for anyway to grab attention.

 

[jewscout]

i believe that Jesus died for the Jews, as was required in their relgious system of sacrifice; but non-Jews dont require death sacrifices like they had in the old testament, so non-Jews dont require someone to die on a cross for them

such a "sacrifice" as that of the execution of Jesus would be deemed unkosher and not fall in anywhere in the service of sacrifices during the time of the Temple.

 

[Merlin]

But are their supposed encounters a reliable source? Plus, people, now-a-days, are looking for anyway to grab attention.

They will tell you so. They will even justify their claims by referring to the Scriptures. And before anybody hits me, there are lots of denomination who make similar claims, as do Moslems.

 

[Immortal Awakened]

I don't know, but it is very sad............

i agree

As I know to my cost, when I have quoted it, and used the 'wrong' words for some.

often when people have discussions, they have entirely different understandings of words; many words have multiple different definitions in the dictionary, and each of us has a different and unique life experience associated with any word that we use; the word 'christian' may mean 'loving' for some and 'militant' for others

I am afraid that, for me, the greater part of the Bible is a parable; after all, there is really only a simple message at the end of it all..........Love Christ and try to follow his example (which is impossible, but we can try), and believe in the crucifiction and resurection as an absolution for our sins..........

i find that, although portions of the new testament encourage love, that there is also a great deal of violence and judgment also depicted within the bible

Ah, well some Christians feel that because they are Christians, that makes them better than others......I have met less judgemental atheists than some Christians I know.

my impression is that many christians (albeit not all) consider themselves immune to the judgments of others on the basis that they have been forgiven, while simultaneously judging others who do the same things as they; non-christians lack this divine immunity for their sins, so its open season to judge them

 

[Immortal Awakened]

For the sake of clarity, no. I do not believe what other "christians" believe and do not wish to be defined in such a manner.

i noticed that you changed your allocation to that of 'believer'; what do you believe?

But they don't and that is essentially the problem.

i find that it is a problem that we should automatically expect, for good or bad; we cant change the attitudes of the whold world via our immediate power, so we may have to simply adapt, and focus on changing ourselves instead

There are some pretty wide fundamental gaps in the various "christian" beliefs. They can't all be christian since that would mean they all have basically the same "christian" beliefs. Since some christians think Jesus may not have lived but the idea is good, some believe he existed but wasn't God (or the Son of God), some believe He was the son of God but not God, some believe he was God....and so on. How can they all be "Christian"? They can't....so the word becomes meaningless.

i may be more prone to refer to many of them as theists then; not all theists are christian; of course, im not even a theist myself

 

[BeautifulMind]

Jewscout, what is Jesus was just any ordinary person who stood up for the greater good and was punnished for doing so?

 

[Immortal Awakened]

Since I don't know how to add quotes =P.

there are three ways to quote something:

1. you can simply hit the 'quote' button instead of the 'reply' button, and a person's text will be quoted automatically for you, or

2. you can drag and drop a person's text into the text window, highlight it, and then hit the other quote button atop the text box, or

3. you can simply type:

[-q-u-o-t-e-]insert text here[-/-q-u-o-t-e-]

subtracting out the hyphens that i added

 

[Immortal Awakened]

such a "sacrifice" as that of the execution of Jesus would be deemed unkosher and not fall in anywhere in the service of sacrifices during the time of the Temple.

a human sacrifice, yes; the christians somehow modified this; what im getting at is that the idea of 'blood sacrifice' is a common ancient judaic theme in the context of the torah; the early christians had asserted jesus to be the messiah of the jews, and jesus himself referred to samaritans as dogs, saying that he was sent only to the 'lost house of israel'; the christian gospel did not go out to non-jews until acts chapter ten, when Peter (then the head of the christian church) miraculously discovered that non-jews could be privy to the gospel too

 

[Melody]

I wanted to clarify one other thing. Outside this debate forum, my faith is my business alone. I don't go knocking on doors or prosletyzing to those walking along the street. I don't hide it either. For example, instead of saying "I'm lucky", I say I am blessed. If someone asks me a question, I will share my beliefs.

This forum is another matter. This is a debate forum. If you ask someone a question, you may get an answer you don't like or which may sound judgmental. I'm not quite sure how someone says "this is what I believe and you're right too" when their faith says there isn't any other way.

I believe in one God. I believe that one God manifested himself in human form (Jesus) to create the perfect sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins. I believe that to achieve salvation we must accept that sacrifice which involves repenting of our sins, accepting Christ/God (not Christ as the literal son, not Christ as a prophet, not Christ as a good man) and then living in that faith. I believe the Holy Spirit is the indwelling spirit of God which helps us to walk the walk of faith so that when we stray, He convicts us and we move back to the correct path.

Do I believe others who believe differently are correct? No, I don't. If I did, this would not be my belief. I believe everyone has a right to their belief....even if they're wrong.

 

[Immortal Awakened]

I wanted to clarify one other thing. Outside this debate forum, my faith is my business alone. I don't go knocking on doors or prosletyzing to those walking along the street. I don't hide it either. For example, instead of saying "I'm lucky", I say I am blessed. If someone asks me a question, I will share my beliefs.

your faith is a private thing unless asked; i understand

This forum is another matter. This is a debate forum. If you ask someone a question, you may get an answer you don't like or which may sound judgmental. I'm not quite sure how someone says "this is what I believe and you're right too" when their faith says there isn't any other way.

there are many faiths which say that there isnt any other way; and yet again, there are many other belief systems which say that there are many paths to a god; some are exclusive and some are inclusive

I believe in one God. I believe that one God manifested himself in human form (Jesus) to create the perfect sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins. I believe that to achieve salvation we must accept that sacrifice which involves repenting of our sins, accepting Christ/God (not Christ as the literal son, not Christ as a prophet, not Christ as a good man) and then living in that faith. I believe the Holy Spirit is the indwelling spirit of God which helps us to walk the walk of faith so that when we stray, He convicts us and we move back to the correct path.

and my question then is: why do you believe this? are you not getting these things from a bible, which you believe to be at least partially fallible?

you seem to be espousing various assertions made within the bible, which is your every right; but what amazes me is that there seem to be certain portions of the bible which you do not espouse; how do you tell which portions of the bible to espouse and which portions not to espouse?

im not so much out to try to prove you wrong; rather im trying to understand your perspective, as well as voice any potential or existent obstacles that i would personally have with that perspective

Do I believe others who believe differently are correct? No, I don't.

there are many religious belief systems which are inclusive of different religions; its not an either/or scenario for them; myself, i view that any religion out there is actually incomplete with its knowledge base; no religion has all of the answers, as far as im concerned, insofar as any religious texts, even if partially inspired, are still marked by the mortal flaws of the authors who wrote them; i dont believe that there is any perfect text

If I did, this would not be my belief. I believe everyone has a right to their belief....even if they're wrong.

so how do you tell if another belief system is wrong? do you measure other belief systems against a bible which you believe to be partially fallible? how can you tell?

 

[Melody]

and my question then is: why do you believe this? are you not getting these things from a bible, which you believe to be at least partially fallible?

I pray...and I listen for the answer. I also believe God gave us a brain for a purpose. I read....*a lot*....and not just "christian" books. I listen to people here on the RF. I spend time reading the Bible. I talk to those knowledgeable in Scripture. It's not any one thing.

you seem to be espousing various assertions made within the bible, which is your every right; but what amazes me is that there seem to be certain portions of the bible which you do not espouse;

It's not that I disespouse certain portions of the bible but rather I look at the reason for those sections. For example, many people like to use Leviticus when dealing with tithing and homosexuality. Leviticus is the set of laws that God set down for His Chosen people -- the Hebrews. It was part of their covenant. As such, it has nothing to do with my life. I am not Hebrew and this covenant was not made with my ancestors. I follow the teachings of Christ who said that He is the fulfillment of the law. Other parts of the OT are small slices of the history of God and His chosen people.

I've read the OT books but probably spend most of my time in Psalms. The new testament is where I find my rules for living.

im not so much out to try to prove you wrong; rather im trying to understand your perspective, as well as voice any potential or existent obstacles that i would personally have with that perspective

I will keep that in mind and I am more than happy to have a discussion on that basis. It helps me to clarify my own beliefs when I have to put them into words and not just "feelings".

i dont believe that there is any perfect text

so how do you tell if another belief system is wrong? do you measure other belief systems against a bible which you believe to be partially fallible? how can you tell?

I would probably have to agree with you. When I say a belief system is wrong, and I would never do that unless I was in a situation such as the RF debate forum, I measure it against my own belief system. If I thought another faith was right, then mine would be wrong since I believe Christ is the *only* path to salvation.

I can't hand you any physical proof. It is just something inside me that says "this is right. this is truth." All I can do is live by that truth.

 

[Dentonz]

I believe that the Bible is the only thing that can define what a Christian is. In my opinion, the Bible is the basis for all Christianity, not councils, or tribunals or whatever. If anything is taught under the "Christian" heading, it needs to be backed up by the Bible. A Christian is not a person that follows a religion, they are a person that has a relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

I would suggest that all Christians should use the Creed as originally written (and I don't mean in Greek unless you are Greek yourself).

Oh, darn! I guess I'm going to be left out in the cold -- again! But hey, I'll just try to console myself with the knowledge that I'm in some pretty good company: all of the Christians who lived prior to 325 A.D.

 

[SPLogan]

Oh, darn! I guess I'm going to be left out in the cold -- again! But hey, I'll just try to console myself with the knowledge that I'm in some pretty good company: all of the Christians who lived prior to 325 A.D.

The farther you go back in history, the more unity we seem to share. Afterall, we're all family- we all have Noah in common as a great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great etc... grandfather. We are all Noahic in our thinking. (if there is such a thing)

 

[James the Persian]

As I know to my cost, when I have quoted it, and used the 'wrong' words for some.

I know that you're referring to me here, Michel. To clarify, I don't object to Roman Catholics or Protestants using the altered Creed, I just object to them calling it the Nicene Creed when it is not. What they want to believe (and I do consider them still to be Christians) is up to them, I just object to the historical and textual inaccuracy in portraying the Creed of the Council of Toledo as if it were the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Kathryn,

I didn't mean to put you out in the cold. I am well aware that whilst you consider yourself Christian (and who am I to say otherwise?) you would not use the Creed. I'm also well aware that pre-Constantinople (325 was the date of the Council of Nicea and the Creed was not completed then) Christians would not have used these words (though I would disagree strongly with you if you were to say they didn't share the beliefs embodied in them). My point was that if a Christian is to use the Nicene Creed they should all use the original wording, changes to which were forbidden by the Ecumenical Councils, rather than the altered text.

Merlin,

The words Rome unilaterally added to the Creed are known as the filioque. This is the phrase 'and from the Son' when talking of the procession of the Holy Spirit. This may seem like a small thing but it has huge Triadological effects and we see it as distorting the Trinity and contra-Scriptural. It's also much bigger than the single 'i' that separates the words homoousios and homoiousios (which caused great controversy during the Arian heresy), so there's a long history in the Church of seemingly minor changes to terminology causing massive theological ramifications. The fact that the fruits of this change to the Creed (plus papal claims to supremacy over the Church) was a near 1000 year Schism shows just how much of an issue it is for us.

James

 

[Immortal Awakened]

I pray...and I listen for the answer.

do you hear an audible voice?; are you having visions?

I also believe God gave us a brain for a purpose. I read....*a lot*....and not just "christian" books. I listen to people here on the RF. I spend time reading the Bible. I talk to those knowledgeable in Scripture. It's not any one thing.

i read alot too; i accept many things that i like and i reject many things that i dont, or i will remain neutral on certain issues too; however, i do not assert that any of the things that i read are infallible truth; there are errors in every text, because there is no perfect text

It's not that I disespouse certain portions of the bible but rather I look at the reason for those sections. For example, many people like to use Leviticus when dealing with tithing and homosexuality. Leviticus is the set of laws that God set down for His Chosen people -- the Hebrews. It was part of their covenant. As such, it has nothing to do with my life. I am not Hebrew and this covenant was not made with my ancestors. I follow the teachings of Christ who said that He is the fulfillment of the law. Other parts of the OT are small slices of the history of God and His chosen people.

why do you suppose that the god of the bible would wish to kill homosexuals? the god of the bible is unchanging, no? did the god of the bible change?

I've read the OT books but probably spend most of my time in Psalms. The new testament is where I find my rules for living.

in that case, what about these rules as Paul presents in these verses?

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
(NAS95)

in regards to NT rules for living, do you obey these rules?

I will keep that in mind and I am more than happy to have a discussion on that basis. It helps me to clarify my own beliefs when I have to put them into words and not just "feelings".

i find that journaling helps me alot too

I would probably have to agree with you. When I say a belief system is wrong, and I would never do that unless I was in a situation such as the RF debate forum, I measure it against my own belief system. If I thought another faith was right, then mine would be wrong since I believe Christ is the *only* path to salvation.

i like to look at it moreso as a matter of perspective; we each have incomplete perspectives which can compliment one another

for example: lets say four different people witness a bank robbery; one person is directly behind the desk getting robbed, while another is watching through the outside glass door; still another is viewing the robbery from under a table ten feet away; and still another is viewing it from a balcony on the second floor

when each of these witnesses go to court, they will each testify something a bit different, because they each have unique vantage points; they will all tell slightly different stories; one saw a gun and the other didnt; one heard a voice and the other didnt; one saw a mask and the other didnt, etc; this does not mean that any of them are necessarily wrong; they just have different perspectives

so also with religious/irreligious views; when debating ontological god concepts, there is an even greater amount of theory and conjecture than what is in the above example; if i ask for proof for someones religious belief, im typically simply offered even more theories; i suppose some things can be proven to be right or wrong in life (if you record events with video cameras), but religious theories can be debated to no end, because they simply lack physical evidence; and if one claims to have evidence, it is often something exclusive to the one presenting it, which can be interpreted any number of ways anyway

I can't hand you any physical proof. It is just something inside me that says "this is right. this is truth." All I can do is live by that truth.

i applaud you for living by your truth; i just believe that the individual truth that we each have is rather subjective; although i will often measure various aspects of the world by the truths that i know, i also endeavor to allow my incomplete understanding of these truths to be enhanced by the world around me

 

[Immortal Awakened]

I believe that the Bible is the only thing that can define what a Christian is. In my opinion, the Bible is the basis for all Christianity, not councils, or tribunals or whatever. If anything is taught under the "Christian" heading, it needs to be backed up by the Bible.

im not aware how anyone could claim to be a christian, without acknowledging that their belief system originates from the bible; however, ive observed that the belief systems of many christians are not actually consistent with the bible

A Christian is not a person that follows a religion, they are a person that has a relationship with Jesus Christ.

please define 'relationship' in the context that you are using the word; are you using the word 'relationship' literally, or simply metaphorically?