As a Christian, what specifically do you believe? And why?

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur,

First of all i'm sorry to get my nose into this thread which supposed to be for christians only but i'm just curious because a LDS christian once told me that they didn't worship Jesus but they say he is the son of God, the savior.

Moreover, they only worship God "the father".

What do you say about that? and is there many sects within LDS itself or this is only depend in the personal beliefs for that christian?

(( I'm not here to debate but just to ask because i'm curious only. ))

Hi, Truth.

Yes, I believe it was Aqualung who said that. We Latter-day Saints do believe in the subordination of the Son and the Holy Spirit to the Father. In other words, unlike most Christians, we don't use the word "co-equal" to describe them. But we do believe that all three of them comprise the "Godhead" and are, therefore, "God." And it would be a mistake to say that we worship only one third of the Godhead. Perhaps what Aqualung was trying to say is that we recognize God the Father as the supreme being. We believe that, in addition to being Christ's Father, He was also His God. We always address our prayers to God the Father, not to Jesus. We petition the Father "in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ," since we believe the Son to be a mediator between us and the Father. I hope that helps clarify things. (Incidentally, Aqulung has been LDS for only a couple of months. She is remarkably knowledgable considering how long she has been a member of the Church, but I've been a member all my life -- 57 years -- so just give her a little bit of time to catch up. I'm sure she'll overtake me in time. )

 

[SPLogan]

do christians base their faith in extra-biblical religious documents? how can one know that this document is accurate?

I am not an authority on this but the following is my understanding:

do Christians "base" their faith on anything? If the word "base" is a verb, then no- because faith is "basically" a gift from God, not by "doing" anything. God creates faith within people- therefore no one can boast about having faith. It's a gift. (I'm talking on a spiritual level)

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Fundamentally, a Christian's faith isn't "based" on the Bible or any other book or logical process; it is merely confirmed therein. However, the Bible is basically different than all other writings- it is Scripture, uniquely inspired by God and authoritative. God does use the Bible to create saving faith in people. It is His Word to His people.

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

On the same spiritual level on which faith is created, God enlightened the writers of Scripture. Their words are His Word. There are several ways that Christians have determined what writings are inspired by God (or are "canonical"). It basically has to do with who wrote them, their credentials, and/or the overall consistency among the documents.

All that to say:

Extra-Biblical documents, such as the Nicene Creed are not authoritative, like the Bible. However, they are useful summations Biblical doctrine- provided that they do truly represent the beliefs espoused in the Bible.

Creeds are useful in reminding us Christians what we really believe because we are so prone to forget and to live inconsistently with our beliefs. (sort of like a company reciting its mission statement to remind them of their larger goals - as opposed to the smaller goals of getting to sit by a window or something)

- I hope that wasn't too wordy, boring, or off base.

 

[Immortal Awakened]

I am not an authority on this but the following is my understanding:

do Christians "base" their faith on anything? If the word "base" is a verb, then no- because faith is "basically" a gift from God, not by "doing" anything. God creates faith within people- therefore no one can boast about having faith. It's a gift. (I'm talking on a spiritual level)

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Fundamentally, a Christian's faith isn't "based" on the Bible or any other book or logical process; it is merely confirmed therein. However, the Bible is basically different than all other writings- it is Scripture, uniquely inspired by God and authoritative. God does use the Bible to create saving faith in people. It is His Word to His people.

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

On the same spiritual level on which faith is created, God enlightened the writers of Scripture. Their words are His Word. There are several ways that Christians have determined what writings are inspired by God (or are "canonical"). It basically has to do with who wrote them, their credentials, and/or the overall consistency among the documents.

All that to say:

Extra-Biblical documents, such as the Nicene Creed are not authoritative, like the Bible. However, they are useful summations Biblical doctrine- provided that they do truly represent the beliefs espoused in the Bible.

Creeds are useful in reminding us Christians what we really believe because we are so prone to forget and to live inconsistently with our beliefs. (sort of like a company reciting its mission statement to remind them of their larger goals - as opposed to the smaller goals of getting to sit by a window or something)

- I hope that wasn't too wordy, boring, or off base.

the problem that i find is that many christians do not actually agree on the nicene creed, and even condemn entire denominations to hell; that may be one of the reasons that im agnostic; what faith should i embrace, if they fight and disagree so much?

 

[Scuba Pete]

According to the scriptures SPLogan, Faith is not only a gift, but it is a work as well!

I am Christian because there is an empty tomb. I don't claim to understand all of the mysteries of God and Jesus, but this one simple fact helps me to put my lack of understanding in perspective.

The Spirit is our counselor: the one who makes hard things plain. He only works as we try to follow him. The more we follow, the deeper our understanding. Ephesians makes it plain that WE are to add to our faith: it's not something that happens without effort. God gives the increase, but only as we submit to his will.

 

[Scuba Pete]

As for condemning others... the last chapter of John puts that into perspective.

John 21: 20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"
22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?" NIV

A relationship to Jesus is personal: it is NOT a corporate thing. The second to last statement of the Nicene Creed completely ruins it for me. It is indeed of man and not of God.

 

[Katzpur]

As for condemning others... the last chapter of John puts that into perspective.

As do Jesus' words from Mark. Here, the Apostles rather self-righteously told Christ, "Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us." Jesus' answer was: "Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." We don't all have to see eye to eye on things to all be Christians. Our Savior desired unity among those who claimed to love Him.

 

[TashaN]

Hi, Truth.

Yes, I believe it was Aqualung who said that. We Latter-day Saints do believe in the subordination of the Son and the Holy Spirit to the Father. In other words, unlike most Christians, we don't use the word "co-equal" to describe them. But we do believe that all three of them comprise the "Godhead" and are, therefore, "God." And it would be a mistake to say that we worship only one third of the Godhead. Perhaps what Aqualung was trying to say is that we recognize God the Father as the supreme being. We believe that, in addition to being Christ's Father, He was also His God. We always address our prayers to God the Father, not to Jesus. We petition the Father "in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ," since we believe the Son to be a mediator between us and the Father. I hope that helps clarify things. (Incidentally, Aqulung has been LDS for only a couple of months. She is remarkably knowledgable considering how long she has been a member of the Church, but I've been a member all my life -- 57 years -- so just give her a little bit of time to catch up. I'm sure she'll overtake me in time. )

Oh, i never noticed, you just seems to be in your 20's

Thanks for the information and i think i'll call you Mom again when i discuss with you because almost you are in my Mom's age now.

 

[SPLogan]

the problem that i find is that many christians do not actually agree on the nicene creed, and even condemn entire denominations to hell; that may be one of the reasons that im agnostic; what faith should i embrace, if they fight and disagree so much?

I agree that Christians (like me) are the biggest obstacle to the growth of the Church. I argue and fight with my fellow believers- I say hurtful, false things to them. I'm arrogant, proud, and selfish. I am a sinner- literally. But that's exactly why I need Jesus and His Church (his bride). He lived the life I should have lived and died the death I should have died.
The Church is made up of jerks like me- sinners who need a savior. I just deal with the hypocrisy because I am also a hypocrite. It would be hypocritical for me to avoid hypocrites.

Basically, being an arrogant jerk is prerequisite to being a Christian. If you are not a sinner, you won't fit in with a Christian community anyway.

 

[James the Persian]

The Nicene Creed possibly the most universally agreed upon statement of faith in the Christian religion. It reads as follows:


I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
:jam:


Why do so many Christians agree upon it? I guess, collectively, they perceive it as most Biblically accurate.

Well I can't agree with it because that is not the Nicene Creed. The wording you have quoted is the text altered at the Council of Toledo and later accepted in the Roman Catholic Church but rejected by the eastern churches. We still use the original Creed as defined at the councils of Nicea and Constantinople and reject the later interpolations of the Roman Catholic church. The original does not have the Holy Spirit proceeding eternally from both Father and Son, but from the Father alone. This is what the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches still profess.

James

 

[SPLogan]

Well I can't agree with it because that is not the Nicene Creed. The wording you have quoted is the text altered at the Council of Toledo and later accepted in the Roman Catholic Church but rejected by the eastern churches. We still use the original Creed as defined at the councils of Nicea and Constantinople and reject the later interpolations of the Roman Catholic church. The original does not have the Holy Spirit proceeding eternally from both Father and Son, but from the Father alone. This is what the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches still profess.

:banghead3
Are there any statements of faith, you could propose, that would be accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide?
John 3:16 ? Any Biblical text would be accepted by almost all Christians. (but you'd have to write it in Greek or Hebrew)

 

[James the Persian]

:banghead3
Are there any statements of faith, you could propose, that would be accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide?
John 3:16 ? Any Biblical text would be accepted by almost all Christians. (but you'd have to write it in Greek or Hebrew)

I would suggest that all Christians should use the Creed as originally written (and I don't mean in Greek unless you are Greek yourself). I'm not talking about translations of the Creed but interpolations to the Creed made in direct contravention of the canons of the Ecumenical Councils. I always feel slightly perplexed that Protestants who otherwise try to avoid anything that is specifically Roman Catholic will still use a version of the Creed unilaterally altered by Rome, rather than the Creed as originally produced by the Ecumenical Councils. The original wording of the last part of the Creed, translated into English, is as follows:

And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

James

 

[Immortal Awakened]

As for condemning others... the last chapter of John puts that into perspective.

John 21: 20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"
22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?" NIV

A relationship to Jesus is personal: it is NOT a corporate thing. The second to last statement of the Nicene Creed completely ruins it for me. It is indeed of man and not of God.

there is always something to divide christians it seems; it could be a little phrase or something like that; myself, i disagree with much more of the text than that, since im agnostic; but why should these things split entire denominations?

Well I can't agree with it because that is not the Nicene Creed. The wording you have quoted is the text altered at the Council of Toledo and later accepted in the Roman Catholic Church but rejected by the eastern churches. We still use the original Creed as defined at the councils of Nicea and Constantinople and reject the later interpolations of the Roman Catholic church. The original does not have the Holy Spirit proceeding eternally from both Father and Son, but from the Father alone. This is what the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches still profess.

James

the nicene creed seems to be a major point of contention, especially if the different denominations are actually altering it from time to time; apparently not all christians agree on the texts, for one reason or another

----

:banghead3
Are there any statements of faith, you could propose, that would be accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide?
John 3:16 ? Any Biblical text would be accepted by almost all Christians. (but you'd have to write it in Greek or Hebrew)

are there many verses in the bible that christians can actually agree on? or will there be multiple different interpretations of practically any verse that one may present? some christians believe that the bible is inerrantly inspired and some christians dont; and then some interpret it literally, while others consider it to be merely inspired metaphor (which is a step away from saying that its not inspired); calvinists and arminianists have a hot debate over john 3:16

I agree that Christians (like me) are the biggest obstacle to the growth of the Church. I argue and fight with my fellow believers- I say hurtful, false things to them. I'm arrogant, proud, and selfish. I am a sinner- literally. But that's exactly why I need Jesus and His Church (his bride). He lived the life I should have lived and died the death I should have died.
The Church is made up of jerks like me- sinners who need a savior. I just deal with the hypocrisy because I am also a hypocrite. It would be hypocritical for me to avoid hypocrites.

Basically, being an arrogant jerk is prerequisite to being a Christian. If you are not a sinner, you won't fit in with a Christian community anyway.

i fully agree that we all act these ways; i do too; but what i find is that i get accused by christians of all of these things when they are doing them too; if were all arrogant hypocrites, then why am i accused and cast out from the church when my accusers are doing the same things?; thats what i dont understand

 

[Merlin]

I would suggest that all Christians should use the Creed as originally written (and I don't mean in Greek unless you are Greek yourself). I'm not talking about translations of the Creed but interpolations to the Creed made in direct contravention of the canons of the Ecumenical Councils. I always feel slightly perplexed that Protestants who otherwise try to avoid anything that is specifically Roman Catholic will still use a version of the Creed unilaterally altered by Rome, rather than the Creed as originally produced by the Ecumenical Councils. The original wording of the last part of the Creed, translated into English, is as follows:

And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

James

How do these words differ then from the modern Roman Catholic version?

 

[Merlin]

:banghead3
Are there any statements of faith, you could propose, that would be accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide?
John 3:16 ? Any Biblical text would be accepted by almost all Christians. (but you'd have to write it in Greek or Hebrew)

There is only one that everyone would agree on, including Jews and Muslims. Actually, it is the only one that matters.

"I believe in God"

 

[BeautifulMind]

I don't think that anyone should classify themselves as anything, the classification of oneself only cause controversy to something that, I believe, cannot be solved.

 

[Melody]

As evidenced in previous posts, the term "christian" is meaningless. Everyone defines it in whatever way they wish. Instead of such a generic term, using their denomination would generate greater understanding (e.g. LDS, Catholic, Muslim, etc.)

As such, guess there is no such thing as "true" or "false" Christian since anything goes.

 

[Immortal Awakened]

I don't think that anyone should classify themselves as anything, the classification of oneself only cause controversy to something that, I believe, cannot be solved.

labels are just another way to delineate and divide people

 

[BeautifulMind]

Are you saying that division of people is good?

I think that we should just accept the fact that no one has a clue about God, as of now, and just accept the fact that we need to gather more information and further enlighten ourselves to get a better understand of God.

The world divided is the worst possible situation.

 

[michel]

there is always something to divide christians it seems; it could be a little phrase or something like that; myself, i disagree with much more of the text than that, since im agnostic; but why should these things split entire denominations?

I don't know, but it is very sad............

the nicene creed seems to be a major point of contention, especially if the different denominations are actually altering it from time to time; apparently not all christians agree on the texts, for one reason or another.

As I know to my cost, when I have quoted it, and used the 'wrong' words for some.

are there many verses in the bible that christians can actually agree on? or will there be multiple different interpretations of practically any verse that one may present? some christians believe that the bible is inerrantly inspired and some christians dont; and then some interpret it literally, while others consider it to be merely inspired metaphor (which is a step away from saying that its not inspired); calvinists and arminianists have a hot debate over john 3:16

I am afraid that, for me, the greater part of the Bible is a parable; after all, there is really only a simple message at the end of it all..........Love Christ and try to follow his example (which is impossible, but we can try), and believe in the crucifiction and resurection as an absolution for our sins..........

i fully agree that we all act these ways; i do too; but what i find is that i get accused by christians of all of these things when they are doing them too; if were all arrogant hypocrites, then why am i accused and cast out from the church when my accusers are doing the same things?; thats what i dont understand

Ah, well some Christians feel that because they are Christians, that makes them better than others......I have met less judgemental atheists than some Christians I know.

 

[Merlin]

Are you saying that division of people is good?

I think that we should just accept the fact that no one has a clue about God, as of now, and just accept the fact that we need to gather more information and further enlighten ourselves to get a better understand of God.

The world divided is the worst possible situation.

You might find lots of replies from people telling you they know everything about God's purpose. Because he has told them (or one of their leaders) personally.