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Artificial intelligence and the soul OR Karma

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
Poeticus brought up a thread regarding Zombies and the possibilities of karma based on their actions. Luis brought up robots and this made me think of artificial intelligence.

I feel one day we will create something so intelligent that it will functions very similar to a human. Such as have ideas of morals, consciousness, emotions(currently there are in fact robots with emotions). So my questions are this would said "being" have a soul? If so how? If you do not believe in a soul this question means little to you (I sowwy :( )

Would karma affect said "being"? if yes or no, why or why not?
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Since I obviously lack belief in soul or atman, I see the lack of one as no barrier to AI being a possible destination of rebirth.

The big question to me is; how important is DNA in the arising of consciousness within a material form? It may be vital. In my tradition we are taught that mind and matter are mutually conditioning. But, not all matter is conducive to consciousness. Rocks aren't aware. Why? Well, of course they lack consciousness; but, why do rocks lack consciousness? (While not strictly rhetorical questions, they don't have to be answered, though they should at least be pondered.)

Lastly, how feasible is AI, really? Some knowledgeable people whom I have spoken to on the subject typically reply by saying that we are nowhere close to machines that can actually generate intent independently of an external operator. This puts us back in the domain of puppet zombies.

If the materialist view of reality were correct, sentient AI should be possible as all we would need to do is map the structure of the brain and build an artificial replica. But if you are like me and reject a materialist view of the universe, it seems unlikely that merely reproducing the hardware of the brain would be a sufficient cause for consciousness to arise. Buddhists do not see consciousness as a mere emergent property of a physical organ; but, as a link in a chain of causation encompassing the five aggregates that is being propelled forward by desire and karma.

It IS a head scratcher and a great thought experiment.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Poeticus brought up a thread regarding Zombies and the possibilities of karma based on their actions. Luis brought up robots and this made me think of artificial intelligence.

I feel one day we will create something so intelligent that it will functions very similar to a human. Such as have ideas of morals, consciousness, emotions(currently there are in fact robots with emotions). So my questions are this would said "being" have a soul? If so how? If you do not believe in a soul this question means little to you (I sowwy :( )

Would karma affect said "being"? if yes or no, why or why not?


Said object would have no soul. A soul (Causal Body) is composed of matter finer than the physical realm. A robot behaves according to the rules given it. It may be programmed to act like a being with emotions but there is nothing there to FEEL the emotions. It's ultimately electrons following logic paths and nothing to FEEL the bigger picture of what is happening. There is something profoundly different between animate and inanimate objects. A robot is inorganic and inanimate.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Since I obviously lack belief in soul or atman, I see the lack of one as no barrier to AI being a possible destination of rebirth.

How do you see rebirth happening with no Causal Body (or 'soul' in some terminology) above the physical realm. What linkage mechanism would cause a physical birth to be a rebirth of another physical life?

I always think there is a non-permanent ever-changing body above the physical plane that experiences a sequence of lives. This does not conflict with anatta as even this soul is temporary (but lasts for many lifetimes).
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Buddhists do not see consciousness as a mere emergent property of a physical organ; but, as a link in a chain of causation encompassing the five aggregates that is being propelled forward by desire and karma.
I think AI is going to prove SUCH BUDDHISTS wrong.
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
Said object would have no soul. A soul (Causal Body) is composed of matter finer than the physical realm. A robot behaves according to the rules given it. It may be programmed to act like a being with emotions but there is nothing there to FEEL the emotions. It's ultimately electrons following logic paths and nothing to FEEL the bigger picture of what is happening. There is something profoundly different between animate and inanimate objects. A robot is inorganic and inanimate.

Well to be totally honest we're not much different. Our consciousness, emotions, and the things that make us "human" are just electrons in our brain following a program (genes). What you explained to me is a human with a metallic body.

I think such a being would have a possibility to get a soul but that is based on my odd definition of a soul. To me there are not souls (as in not a soul in the way the Abrahamic faiths view souls), but A soul ( you would know it by the name Brahman) and the brain is really just the tool used to bridge the gap between this material world and what lies beyond(it's also why I tihnk sleeping is necessary to human survival). So assuming a creature COULD have a brain I feel it would tap into the eternal bliss that is Brahman and come away with a minor reflection of this divinity in itself, in the same way we do. Or I could be totally wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about lol
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
How do you see rebirth happening with no Causal Body (or 'soul' in some terminology) above the physical realm. What linkage mechanism would cause a physical birth to be a rebirth of another physical life?

Rebirth-linking consciousness connects successive lifetimes. This rebirth-linking consciousness is not a constant substance or entity, but a specific state of consciousness that arises for a moment and then ceases, linking successive states of consciousness from one body to another when the former material body breaks down and "dies".
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I have found no proof of 'rebirth-linking consciousness connecting successive lifetimes', just like Buddha did not find evidence of Lord Brahma.

"27. "But Vasettha, is there a single one of the Brahmins versed in the three Vedas who has ever seen Brahma face to face?"
28. "No indeed, Gautama."
29. "Is there a single one of the teachers of the Brahmanas versed in the three Vedas who has seen Brahma face to face?"
30. "No indeed, Gautama."
31. "Nobody has seen Brahma. There is no perceptual knowledge about Brahma." "So it is" said Vasettha. "How then can you believe that the assertion of the Brahmins that Brahma exists is based on truth?"
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
I have found no proof of 'rebirth-linking consciousness connecting successive lifetimes', just like Buddha did not find evidence of Lord Brahma.

"27. "But Vasettha, is there a single one of the Brahmins versed in the three Vedas who has ever seen Brahma face to face?"
28. "No indeed, Gautama."
29. "Is there a single one of the teachers of the Brahmanas versed in the three Vedas who has seen Brahma face to face?"
30. "No indeed, Gautama."
31. "Nobody has seen Brahma. There is no perceptual knowledge about Brahma." "So it is" said Vasettha. "How then can you believe that the assertion of the Brahmins that Brahma exists is based on truth?"

You are quoting from the Tevijja Sutta from the Digha Nikaya. If you notice, the Buddha does not deny that there is evidence of Lord Brahma. Quite the contrary, what he tells the brahmins is that the Vedas will offer no help in discovering that truth. After that, the Buddha explains how one can find Brahma.

“Vasettha, it might be said that such a man on being asked the way might be confused or perplexed - but the Tathagata, on being asked about the Brahma world and the way to get there, would certainly not be confused or perplexed. For, Vasettha, I know Brahma and the world of Brahma, and the way to the world of Brahma, and the path of practice whereby the world of Brahma may be gained.”

At this Vasettha said : “Reverend Gotama,” I have heard them say : “The ascetic Gotama teaches the way to union with Brahma.” “It would be good if the Reverend Gotama were to teach us the way to union with Brahma, may the Reverend Gotama help the people of Brahma!”

“Then, Vasettha, listen, pay proper attention, and I will tell you.” “Very good, Reverend Sir,” said Vasettha. The Lord said :

“Vasettha, a Tathagata arises in the world, an Arahant, a fully-enlightened Buddha, endowed with wisdom and conduct, Well-Farer, Knower of the worlds, incomparable Trainer of men to be tamed, Teacher of Gods and humans, enlightened and blessed. He, having realised it by his own super-knowledge, proclaims this world with its Devas, Maras and Brahmas, its princes and people. He preaches the Dhamma which is lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle, lovely in its ending, in the spirit and in the letter, and displays the fully perfected and purified holy life. A disciple goes forth, practises the moralities, attains the first jhana (as Digha Nikaya 2, verses 43-75).”

“Then, with his heart filled with loving-kindness, he dwells suffusing one quarter, the second, the third, the fourth. Thus he dwells suffusing the whole world, upwards, downwards, across, everywhere, always with a heart filled with loving-kindness, abundant, unbounded 6 without hate or ill-will.

“Just as if a mighty trumpeter were with little difficulty to make a proclamation to the four quarters, so by this meditation, Vasettha, by this liberation of the heart through loving kindness he leaves nothing untouched, nothing unaffected in the sensuous sphere.7 This, Vasettha, is the way to union with Brahma.”

“Then with his heart filled with compassion, … with sympathetic joy, with equanimity he dwells suffusing one quarter, the second, the third, the fourth. Thus he dwells suffusing the whole world, upwards, downwards, across, everywhere, always with a heart filled with equanimity, abundant, unbounded, without hate or ill-will.”

“Just as if a mighty trumpeter were with little difficulty to make a proclamation to the four quarters, so by this meditation, Vasettha, by this liberation of the heart through cornpassion, …through sympathetic joy, … through equanimity, he leaves nothing untouched, nothing unaffected in the sensuous sphere. This, Vasettha, is the way to union with Brahma.”

“What do you think, Vasettha? Is a monk dwelling thus encumbered with wives and wealth or unencumbered?” “Unencumbered, Reverend Gotama.” “He is without hate …, without ill-will …, pure and disciplined, Reverend Gotama.”

“Then, Vasettha, the monk is unencumbered, and Brahma is unencumbered. Has that unencumbered monk anything in common with the unencumbered Brahma?” “Yes indeed, Reverend Gotama.”

“That is right, Vasettha. Then that an unencumbered monk, after death, at the breaking-up of the body, should attain to union with the unencumbered Brahma - that is possible. Likewise a monk without hate …, without ill~will …, pure …, disciplined … Then that a disciplined monk, after death, at the breaking-up of the body, should attain to union with Brahma - that is possible.”

DN 13 Tevijja Sutta (On Knowledge of The Vedas)- DhammaWeb

Please note, the Buddha is talking about Lord Brahma. We believe in the Brahma-kings as sublime deities that dwell in the Fine-Material Realm and the Formless Realm. The union the Buddha is talking about in regards to Brahma is not permanent, it is still located within samsara and subject to suffering, impermanence, and lacking self.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
I have found no proof of 'rebirth-linking consciousness connecting successive lifetimes', just like Buddha did not find evidence of Lord Brahma.

As I'm sure you know, the Buddha teaches that consciousness is not a unitary thing. It is composed of a series of successive states of awareness, rising and falling under the conditioning of volitional formations, sense objects, and kamma. The Buddha also teaches that this rising and falling of states of consciousness does not cease with the death of a material body. This is because the Buddha does not see consciousness as a mere emergent property of the brain. The specific term, "rebirth-linking consciousness", is never uttered directly by the Buddha to my knowledge. The term originates in the commentaries and the Abhidhamma literature to categorize the state of consciousness that arises at the last moment of one lifetime and then "links" to the first mental moment in the next.

I know that you are a materialist, aup. Do you believe that AI could ever be considered "alive" in the same way that you, me, or a tiger is alive? Do you believe that all we need to do is perfectly reconstruct a brain and consciousness would automatically arise as an emergent property?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
How could AI prove that? You can only see the physical level.
Good question. An AI we should know perfectly how it works. However AI must prove the object has sentience and that is no easy task even if it answers the questions right.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Well to be totally honest we're not much different. Our consciousness, emotions, and the things that make us "human" are just electrons in our brain following a program (genes).

I have learned it very differently from the teachers I respect. A human is composed of a physical body, etheric body, astral body, mental body and a Causal Body. So in seeing these electrons in our brains we are not seeing the whole picture. Things are felt at the astral level; things are thought on the mental plane and carried down through sympathetic vibrations to the physical level. There is a fundamental difference between what we call 'living' and 'non-living' things. A robot will never FEEL the emotions it is programmed to mimic.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Rebirth-linking consciousness connects successive lifetimes.

But what is the mechanism by which a death and a rebirth are linked. It must be something above the physical plane (as I think we both believe).

I'm thinking we don't really differ, I just go one step further in describing how this mechanism works. I think there is an ever evolving Causal Body connected to each of us that learns from physical life, collects karma and spawns its next rebirth.
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
I have learned it very differently from the teachers I respect. A human is composed of a physical body, etheric body, astral body, mental body and a Causal Body. So in seeing these electrons in our brains we are not seeing the whole picture. Things are felt at the astral level; things are thought on the mental plane and carried down through sympathetic vibrations to the physical level. There is a fundamental difference between what we call 'living' and 'non-living' things. A robot will never FEEL the emotions it is programmed to mimic.

I personally agree with you on this point. I mean what makes a human a human? Is it our bodies? No for a person who lost a limb would be "less human" Okay then it must be our intelligence for that is what set us apart from the beasts. Though true it is not that either for a less intelligent being would be pour"less human" or a genius would be pour"super human". Well maybe it's our thought process our conscious mind. We are able to think and develop ideas of right and wrong animals can't do that. Though I would agree that the conscious mind Is the most important aspect of our physical bodies This too has a flaw. People suffering from mental distress(depression, schizophrenia, dementia , ultzimers) would again be pour"less human" thus I feel there is a soul somewhere else.

I only postulate that a robot with these "human parts" could theoretically gain the final part a soul.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Souls look for something to inhabit, like buying a new shirt. Who knows, maybe some day AI machines will be inhabitable.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
We believe in the Brahma-kings as sublime deities that dwell in the Fine-Material Realm and the Formless Realm.
Then, Von Bek, has anyone seen the Brahma-Kings as sublime deities that dwell in the Fine-Material Realm and the Formless Realm?

Has any one's teacher seen the Brahma-Kings as sublime deities that dwell in the Fine-Material Realm and the Formless Realm?

Has anyone smelled the Brahma-Kings or touched them? If they have not seen any Brahma-King, and their teacher's have not seen the Brahma-Kings; they have not smelled a Brahma-King or touched him. Then how, Von Bek, can anyone believe in the existence of Brahma-Kings? ;)
I know that you are a materialist, aup. Do you believe that AI could ever be considered "alive" in the same way that you, me, or a tiger is alive? Do you believe that all we need to do is perfectly reconstruct a brain and consciousness would automatically arise as an emergent property?
I do believe that, Von Bek. If ever science is able to create AI (it need not be as sharp as a Planck or a Laplace), conscience (thinking about consequences) would arise automatically. Conscience/consciousness also arises from the 'skandhas'. :)
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The way I see it, there is no way of knowing that AIs and robots are inherently any less capable of holding life and reason (and souls and causal bodies for those who use such concepts) than us organic beings.
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
The way I see it, there is no way of knowing that AIs and robots are inherently any less capable of holding life and reason (and souls and causal bodies for those who use such concepts) than us organic beings.

What of the opposite?
 
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