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Arrogancy

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by hoomer, Feb 3, 2005.

  1. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    I know that No*s, I wasn't saying people were pushing their beliefs on me. I said earlier that there is only a select minority that take it to the extremes I mentioned, and there are, just as I'm sure there are a minority of Pagans who take it to extremes akin to that.
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Amen, sister. That was my point earlier.

    If you like what you see, then by all means pursue it. If you don't like it, then pursue something else.

    But don't hold it against ME if I think you are wrong. That's my right and I hope you won't push your belief of "Everyone is right" onto me! :D
     
  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    So can the position you hold. Pride crosses all theological boundries. For instance, your position may be used against those who disagree as if they are less enlightened. When used in this way, it undermines the appeal that we are all one to those of us who do not share it just as readily as lack of love undermines the Christian appeal.

    The second thing is that you believe "true religion has no title, no book, no laws. This religion is goodness." Do you not see how this very statement can be used as a vessel for pride? Since there is no standard by which we can say a thing is or is not goodness, I could use that philosophy to justify more actions than you would allow.
     
  4. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Ah. I took that last one as equating the assertion of absolute truth with the act of pushing one's beliefs on others.

    My apologies.
     
  5. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    See this is why I don't choose any specific religion. I don't want to pressure any others to think they are focusing on false beliefs in Gods.

    OT- This also applies to my RF given respect for Christians.
     
  6. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    No apologies needed my friend.
     
  7. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    OI,

    Also I may not respect the person, I respect their religious beliefs.

    It's them that makes the decsions, not me.
     
  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Well for point 1, is it arrogant if someone accepts a belief that says this and conforms themselves to it? There's a world of difference between accepting something, and creating something. If I were to create a system, and call it exclusive truth, then that would be indisputably arrogant.

    However, if I believe a set of exclusivist beliefs, and I express inclusivist ideas, is it humility or dishonesty? I would say the latter. Most exclusivist truth claims come (including mine) from an acceptance of divine revelation. Unless you are comfortable in banning entire belief systems with your statement, then it is very thin ice.

    Another point that builds up to it is that every time you make a truth claim, you exclude everyone who disagrees. On that issue, you have it right, and they don't. It just isn't couched in a systematic religious system. For instance, in this thread, you are claiming that such a system distracts one from God. Over half of the world's population believes in such a system. Simply by making this claim, you have become an exclusivist, because you deny the fundamental tenet of the majority of the world (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam add up to more than half the world's population).

    On point 2, I refer to the preceding paragraph. You have just proposed a religious system, and you have made it exclusivist. It does not mesh well with point 1, and subjects you to your own criticism.
     
  9. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Thank you C1 :).
     
  10. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    Is there any occasion of jealousy involved in one despising another's beliefs? I think that Vigil dude posted something previously about it.
     
  11. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Yes, there is always occasion for that. It happens with all systems, also.
     
  12. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    "Well for point 1, is it arrogant if someone accepts a belief that says this and conforms themselves to it? There's a world of difference between accepting something, and creating something."

    Even if you conform yourself to a belief that claims this, you are conforming yourslef to an arrogant belief, and thus makeing yourself arrogant as well. Also, it doesn't matter if you created it or not. Even if you accept an arrogant point, you are still arrogant.

    "Most exclusivist truth claims come (including mine) from an acceptance of divine revelation."

    This would be ok if only one religion claimed to have divine revelation. But that is not the case, so we go to the argument of "whos revelation is right?" If you think yours is, than that is arrogancy.

    I also believe there is a difference between exclusivity and arrogance. You may believe that your religion is right, and that is fine. But as long as you understand that it is only your opinion and you may be wrong. But if you totally believe that you are right and everyone else is wrong no matter what, that is being arrogant. Just like, I don't believe christianity is completely true, but as long as people are good as a result of it, I have no problem with it and have total respect for it. But I don't believe in complete truth, in anything. I believe things like religion are completely subjective. And arrogance comes from people trying to make that subjectiveness into objectiveness.
     
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  13. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    All this discussion about truth, one religion over another religion, ect. two questions need to be considered. (1) Can you and I know the truth? (2) Can you and I know that we know the truth? The Bible says we can. (cf. John 8:32) Did Jesus come to bear witness unto that which one cannot know or cannot know for sure? (John 18:37)
    prosecutor
     
  14. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    Are you asking the Bible, or us, then?:sarcastic

    None can ever know the full truth. And no we cannot both know truth, because one's ideal of truth differs from the next.

    The world would be a :areyoucra place if we all had the same beliefs.
     
  15. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Not so. If I believe it is true, how is that arrogant? It is arrogant, IMO, to tell people that if they accept a certain way of looking at the world then they are arrogant while embracing a sort of minimalist approach to the world.

    It also seems to contradict your values that the core value is goodness, and none of the others really are valuable. If you really believe this, why are you so ready to call me arrogant for being willing to follow my beliefs? It doesn't seem to follow, because you are condemning not just exclusivity, but multiple beliefs.

    What does number have to do with it? My accepting an assertion and the existence of a counter-assertion has no relevance on the arrogance/humility of a given claim. My inner state is not dependent upon the actions of others, but you require that I be arrogant/humble on the basis of what others believe or say. The only criteria involved is my heart and my beliefs. Each claim of divine revelation is a case unto itself. Jesus' claim to divine revelation is not dependent on Muhammed's, and neither is dependent on Joseph Smith.

    You should beware, your assertion cuts counter to you as well. You have now condemned over half the world's population's faith as arrogant, because they disagree with your beliefs on exclusivity and subjectivity/objectivity. It would seem that your arguments condemn your position as readily as everyone else's.

    Remember your advice about outsiders? This seems to be a double-standard to me.

    I don't see your difference between exclusivity and arrogance. I have argued that all along in this thread, and you are quick to condemn people as arrogant. However, you are hasty to say your exclusivity isn't arrogant. What we are discussing are degrees of exclusivity, and the position being championed is completely arbitrary.

    If you seriously believe that everything is subjective, then you either deny truth, which doesn't mesh with this paragraph's arguments about exclusivity, or you claim that we can't really know what is true or false with any degree of certainty. If that is the case, who is to say that a claim to divine revelation isn't true? If its followers believe, then what is it to you?

    They could well be right. Time and death will tell, and if you believe we cannot really know, then why the haste to disallow a position you cannot know is false? Like I said, this seems like a double-standard.
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Actually Soul... disagreeing is how we determine the truth.
     
  17. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    Unless one is right and other is wrong?
     
  18. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    I see your point, it helps us determine our own "version" of truth, yes.
     
  19. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much the point we've all been saying, Prosecutor. Pertaining to religion, what the truth is for me, is not necessarily going to be the truth for another person. Obviously a Pagan and a Christian have different ideals of truth, yet what we've been attempting to get across in this whole thing is that one should not portray their truth as the only truth, because so long as a Pagan does not follow Christian beliefs, than Christian beliefs are not the truth to said Pagan and vice versa and therefore cannot be the only truth.
     
  20. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    I should have added here: although it is the only truth for them, but not so for someone of differing beliefs.
     
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