Arranged Marriage

[Jainarayan]

But this system is not a good one. It might have made sense in the past, to secure ones future in a rather barbaric class system it must be said. It doesn’t anymore. It’s just tradition for the sake of tradition.

I absolutely agree. I never gave any indication I’m in favor of it, just that it exists and why I believe it does. We may rail at it to our hearts’ content but millennia of these traditions isn’t going away in a hurry.

 

[SomeRandom]

I absolutely agree. I never gave any indication I’m in favor of it, just that it exists and why I believe it does. We may rail at it to our hearts’ content but millennia of these traditions isn’t going away in a hurry.

Well we can’t always be passive either. I know that sounds a bit odd, from a Hindu perspective. We’re all about just letting things be. But there are some things that we should fight against. If only for the sake of future generations.

 

[Jainarayan]

If you define "the good of society" by what's good for older men than patriarchy is a fantastic system; for women and young men it has been terrible. It's in no way different than a "Joseph Stalin-type" power grab for it too was made "for the good of society" as defined by the bolshevik. "It's for the best" has been the motto behind ever single hierarchical structure.

We’ve gone from a young guy not wanting to be in an arranged marriage, to bolsheviks. This is a record for train wreck threads.

 

[Jainarayan]

Well we can’t always be passive either. I know that sounds a bit odd, from a Hindu perspective. We’re all about just letting things be. But there are some things that we should fight against. If only for the sake of future generations.

I’m sure there are plenty of brave young people who’ve gone against their parents’ wishes. If you haven’t seen the movie 3 Idiots I recommend it. It hits on this very thing. It’s in Hindi with subtitles.

 

[epronovost]

We’ve gone from a young guy not wanting to be in an arranged marriage, to bolsheviks. This is a record for train wreck threads.

A tyrant is a tyrant that he rules over a nation or his family the process and the principles are the same. The only real difference is the scale.

 

[sun rise]

I think that’s more than a little melodramatic. Not to mention a straw man. It doesn’t necessarily follow that arranged marriages are loveless, violent and or adulterous.

Someone I knew from work, an Indian, went back home to get married in an arranged marriage. His seemed as good as some for romantic love that hit the rocks when the initial romantic buzz ended.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have a friend, someone I share a bit of conversation and a few drinks with several times a week, on a casual basis. As it happens, he is a Hindu (though not religious).

Here's the issue: after his mother died (in India), his father moved to Canada to live with him, and has now decided that it is time that my friend was married so that there can be a woman in the house. (My friend cooks for his father every single day, and keeps house for him, too, while holding down a full-time job in Information Technology.)

In fact, his father has decided who it is that he is going to marry, and when. An Indian woman my friend met only long ago as a child. This has been agreed to between my friend's father and the girl's father.

The issue? My friend doesn't want to get married! (I think that he may even be gay, though I've never sifted him on that point, as he has never offered up any real reason for me to think so.) But he most definitely does not want to marry this person. But culturally, he feels trapped. He is really either afraid or very loathe to say "no" to his father on this point.

I went a little further than I usually would in such a situation. Normally I would hold my peace and not offer advice, because who am I to advise anyone? But this time, I told him -- "You're a Canadian! You are a man, your own man. There is nobody on this side of the ocean who can force you to marry against your will."

He is still really, really torn -- and I think in the end he is simply going to give and obey his father, and that culturally-driven arranged marriage nonsense.

That sounds like a big cultural conflict. Western culture is more individualist: think for yourself. Collectivist think as a group. Everyone supports each other. Both aren't right or wrong.

I'd probably just support him one way or another. Depending on the type of friendship you guys got, I'm sure you've already told him how you see things. On the other hand, I'm sure every other person in his culture (or likewise) is going through similar. It's probably one of those things that can't be changed. Since he's in western culture, though, he will feel some sort of opposition. Support is the best I can think of.

IF he is gay, that's an extra icing on the cake, most definitely. That's something he'd have to work through and wait till he tells you if that be so. It may make more sense then if that's the case.

 

[SomeRandom]

I’m sure there are plenty of brave young people who’ve gone against their parents’ wishes. If you haven’t seen the movie 3 Idiots I recommend it. It hits on this very thing. It’s in Hindi with subtitles.

You underestimate cultural and religious influence.

3 idiots is fun. Haven’t seen it in ages.
Dhadkan is a movie that explicitly endorsed arranged marriage. And that move is super popular. Watched it a lot as a kid, dig the songs.
Bollywood probably outright endorses arranged marriages more often than not. Maybe it’s a better ratio nowadays, but I don’t expect outright rebellion from Bollywood of all things.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

English history is not what this thread was about, now was it. It was about a friend in a cultural dilemma you now see fit to lose respect for because he is bowing to that cultural pressure. Unless you’re part of an “old world” culture you can’t possibly understand the angst. I would question what kind of friend would be so quick to turn when I’m agonizing over a life decision.

I have not "turned." He's still my friend, though I confess I am disappointed that he is giving in. And he said himself, last evening -- "I don't want to, but I have no choice."

You are correct, this is extremely difficult for me to understand. One of (if not the) most important decisions of this adult man's life has been handed to somebody else to make. This is a kind of cultural enslavement to me.

(PS: I'd ask you to remember that I was brought up outside the context of any family at all, and as a gay man, I am also at odds with a fairly fundamental part of my own culture. The latter is less important now than it was when I was growing up, but it has made me something of a cultural iconoclast.)

 

[Jainarayan]

... And he said himself, last evening -- "I don't want to, but I have no choice."

Technically not no choice but rather, little choice which is probably worse. He can choose to take his chances and defy his father and flat out refuse. But I don’t know what repercussions there would be within his own family and the woman’s family’s relationship with his family. Or he can give in and possibly be miserable. If she is opposed to it also, at some point they could amicably divorce. It’s not uncommon.

You are correct, this is extremely difficult for me to understand. One of (if not the) most important decisions of this adult man's life has been handed to somebody else to make. This is a kind of cultural enslavement to me.

I don’t approve, support or condone it, but it is what it is. Which not a win-win situation. Coming from a provincial and parochial background myself I can relate.

I hope he can find a way to get out of this. Hopefully the bride-to-be is against it too and they can present a united front to quash this.

 

[Jainarayan]

You underestimate cultural and religious influence.

Actually no... I am 2nd generation American of Italian-Sicilian descent. I’m painfully aware of the hold and influence the Roman Catholic Church and family have, even today.

Years ago I was invited to a Russian Christmas Eve dinner by some people I became friends with. Christmas Eve is a big to-do among Italians. My sister, American born baby-boomer ripped me a new one for planning to have dinner with “strangers” instead of family.

 

[columbus]

I hope whatever he does he is happy.

Me too.

You are correct, this is extremely difficult for me to understand. One of (if not the) most important decisions of this adult man's life has been handed to somebody else to make. This is a kind of cultural enslavement to me.

But you don't understand him.

As you've pointed out, he is choosing this. His father cannot force him.
Maybe he wants a wife and family and domestic appliance that match his culture. Maybe he told his dad that he'd rather not be both breadwinner and cook/maid. But he didn't learn the social skills that result in the usual western boy/girl paradigm. But doesn't know how to tell you that.

It's not like the western paradigm is all that great. People marry for stupid reasons and then suffer for it. They make children who then suffer along with them, all too frequently. It's not like loveless marriages, rife with abuse and cheating and general mayhem, are unknown in the western world.

Are you sure that the western way is actually better than the Hindu way? I'm not.
Tom

 

[epronovost]

Are you sure that the western way is actually better than the Hindu way? I'm not.
Tom

There are relatively little good data on the subject, but studies so far have shown that arranged marriage and early marriage (often common in very religious context where pre-marital sex is perceived as being sinful) are significantly more likely to result either in divorce and be subject to domestic violence of some sort, especially sexual violence. The fact that many arranged marriage are also between younger people might also play a role. The category most rife with violence and/or abuse though is when marriage where a partner is significantly older and more established than the other. Absence of quality sexual education and religious pressure often makes it difficult for people being abused recognise their situation as such. There is also a lot of shame that comes with being trapped in an abusive relationship. It's especially true for women who are often thought it's their responsability to "make the relationship work".

 

[columbus]

There are relatively little good data on the subject,

Which was quite my point.
Over all, do arranged marriages tend to work out better than people marrying without such guidance? I don't know.

but studies so far have shown that arranged marriage and early marriage

Why are you combining arranged marriage with early marriage?
The description from @Evangelicalhumanist doesn't suggest that the guy is a teenager. He's a grown up who is freely choosing an arranged marriage. A western atheist gay guy doesn't understand that. I'm not surprised.

And I don't pretend to understand the guy. I don't know anything about him, except Evangelical Humanist's opinion. But I don't see a good reason to be so judgemental.
Tom

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, my friend just came into the pub again, and said he's just going to go ahead and do it, even though he doesn't want to.

I hate to admit this, but my respect for him just took a big tumble.

I find that to be more than a little unfortunate.

 

[epronovost]

Which was quite my point.
Over all, do arranged marriages tend to work out better than people marrying without such guidance? I don't know.

From my point of view, their "efficency" is irrelevent. They are a, by their nature, a form of abuse as they prevent adults from choosing their life partner. That a parent wants to offer council and opinion is fine, but people should be free and equal. From every single point of statistics I could find. Arranged marriage were more at risk at becomming violent, just like marriage made being very young and marriage with wide power imbalance. The three can also compound with one another and often do. While arranged marriage do not lead by necessity to domestic violence, they are an important factor of risk.

Childhood Trauma, Type of Marriage and Self-Esteem as Correlates of Domestic Violence in Married Women in Turkey

Children growing up in such marriages also have a higher vulnerability to abuse too.

 

[columbus]

From my point of view, their "efficency" is irrelevent.

You'd rather have more, worse, marriages?

What's with that?

They are a, by their nature, a form of abuse as they prevent adults from choosing their life partner.

Is it?
According to the OP, that's not the case. The guy is choosing. He's a well employed westerner who could choose something different. But arranged marriage is what he's choosing.

Maybe the problem is that you don't think he should be allowed that choice?

That's what it looks like to me. Westerners think he should do things their way, because our culture and ways are so obviously superior to a bunch of primitive Hindus.
Tom

 

[crossfire]

If the father wants a woman around the house, then he can go out and get a job, get his own place, and get married himself.

 

[epronovost]

You'd rather have more, worse, marriages?

What's with that?

That's not my point really. It's a bit like if you told me that rapng women gave your powerful orgasm. I would tell you that how pleasant it is isn't exactly the point. I don't care how sexualy satisfying raping women is to you. Raping women is wrong because they didn't consent to have sex. You could even claim that the women you raped often have orgasm and prove it and it wouldn't change anything.

Is it?
According to the OP, that's not the case. The guy is choosing. He's a well employed westerner who could choose something different. But arranged marriage is what he's choosing.

Maybe the problem is that you don't think he should be allowed that choice?

Are you familiar with the concept of false choice? I think that the nobody should be submitted to such a dilemma of choosing between your family's love and support and your independance and happiness just like nobody should be submitted to a dilemma between killing their children or their spouse. The people who setup such dilemma are the culprites and should be the ones punished. Are you seriously supporting this kind of emotional abuse.

PS: You might have created a paradox. An arranged marriage by definition isn't the choice of the groom and or bride. If they both agree to it, is it still and arranged marriage?

 

[epronovost]

If the father wants a woman around the house, then he can go out and get a job, get his own place, and get married himself.

Or you know...hire a maid.