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armageddon?? pick a #

may

Well-Known Member
ashai said:
Ushta Bruce:)

Sorry, but its Aion in Koine Greek , meaning eon or era/age as in a very long period of time
Aion also means word in a secondary ( at best) sense. In this passage you might be right, in the passage quoted before in 2 Peter ( I believe) which talks about the very elements being set afire, however, this has to be world or cosmos ( I do not have the passage in front of me in either Koine or English but by context it is obvious it is not talking of Age):tsk:

Ushta Te
Ashai
-
The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard :dan:

Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements
Or, "the celestial bodies." Gr., stoi·khei´a.
being intensely hot will be dissolved,
Litrally., "will be loosed."
and earth
and the works in it will be discovered .....2 peter 3;10 Heavens are sometimes known as ruling powers,so the ruling powers of man will pass away and Gods heavenly kingdom goverment will be the only power left.... Daniel 2;44 yes manmade goverments will be removed from their places,
(Isaiah 13:13) That is why I shall cause heaven itself to become agitated, and the earth will rock out of its place at the fury of Jehovah of armies and at the day of his burning anger.​

(Matthew 24:35) Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away .......yes it is (this system of things )that satan and man has build up , that will be dissolved but the litral planet will remain for ever.
 

Adstar

Active Member
ashai said:
Ushta booko:)

The point is that literalist Christians , believe, rightly in my opinion and I have searched the linguistics of the New Testament and know Koine Greek pretty good, that the Bible teaches that the earth, world, humanity, will end in an Armageddon like scenario.:eek:

You make a point that is very good, but the problem is that a literalist will not accept an obvious contradiction but will 'harmonize' the passages somehow.

I, not being Christian, (although I once was) can see the contradiction you see, and can just chalk it up to the contradictory nature of Biblical theology like the other many contradictions that the 'true believers; can't and don't want to see.:(

I notice that you are Bahai, like my friend Scott, so I will venture that, like him, you assign this contradicxtion to an allegory. From a hermeneutical point of view, allegories to be accepatable, as possible interpretation of passages, will have to have independent support, that is there has to be other similar uses of the central points of a story as allegorical elsewhere, preferably in literature that is non-biblical

Take the idea of fire being a symbol, it certainly is in many instances but it is not in others, so when specifically Peter says that the earth will be destroyed by fire and chimes in that the very elements will be destroyed, it can hardly be an allegory since there is no other place in the Bible or outside the Bible within the Jewsih culture ( it is important that we relate the Biblical allegories to at least turnof the 1st Century Jewish culture) where fire is seen burning the elements ( Earth, Fire, Air and Water)

This is a literal fire that Peter is talking about Therefore as your post points out , even if you do not agree, this is a contradiction. One of many, I am afraid.:(

Ushta te
Ashai

Genesis 9
11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth

Did the flood destroy the earth? Or did the flood bring to an end the earth as it was. Same with the fire it will destroy the earth. The earth as it is now. But it will not bring to an end the earth but clear the way for a new earth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Adstar

Active Member
ashai said:
"No way. There is absolutely no way that humans can ever achieve the perfect Kingdom by their own efforts. This is vanity and pride personified. Humans have a built in fault that will only be overcome through the intervention of God upon the nature of mankind. Only after the resurrection will we be made able to live in Gods eternal Kingdom."
Adstar

Ushta Adstar

Who placed this built fault in humans? Since the Creator , created humans it must have been Him? So why does S/He need to interfere to remove the fault S/He placed , in us in the first place? And why place in us this fault, and why judge us and condemn us for a fault S/He placed in us?

Sorry! But it simply does not make any sense!

Ushta Te
Ashai

When God made mankind we where good because we did not know Good or evil. It was satan who played his part in tempting humanity and it was humanity who agreed with the lie of satan and took the bait. So out ancestors played a central part in disobeying God and disregarded His clear warning. So humans where not just innocent pawns they wanted the same thing satan wanted. To be God.

God cannot accept imperfection in eternity. We are imperfect. But God has provided a way for those who agree with Perfection to be cleared of their imperfection Via the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Endless

Active Member
Adstar,

Did the flood destroy the earth? Or did the flood bring to an end the earth as it was. Same with the fire it will destroy the earth. The earth as it is now. But it will not bring to an end the earth but clear the way for a new earth.

Water cannot destroy the earth - but fire can. It really doesn't take a genius to work this out. So tell me, how will fire not bring an end to the earth? Will there be a new Noah's ark to preserve life? Will the heavens not be destroyed? How can life survive with no heavens (ie. atmosphere/space depending on interpretation) Both of them are valid. Space = this universe will end. God scraps everything and starts again - a new heaven and a new earth. One Universe which has not been stained with sin....
Is it so far fetched to thing that this earth will not be destroyed - tell me, how will the earth survive if the elements melt in the heat?
Do not compromise Adstar - interpret the Bible using the Bible.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Because God desires for us not to know the date.
At best, this is not a practical answer and at least, a poor excuse. This is the equivalent of a child asking a parent why they cannot have something and a parent responding “Because, I said so,” I have come to expect more from your God.
What happens when a group of people believe that Jesus is coming on a certain date? They withdraw from society into some compound in the middle of nowhere and stop spreading the Gospel.
Yes, I had forgotten, they do stop spre-hey! This has never happened!! If anything the word of the gospel is stepped up. There are many religions preaching the gospels in preparation for Armageddon/Christ’s Return.
God wants us witnessing to the very end.
Why cannot God witness for him/herself? Is God mute/busy/shy/powerless/modest? With the responsibilities of the average individual human compounding daily, is it even considerate for a Supreme Being to ask an imperfect human to carry the weight and conviction of His word accurately? Before you answer, think of all the religions (past and present) who believe that they have accurately conveyed this message and all the different paths to Armageddon and consider if GOD should break His silence to deliver the last word on this promise.
We do not need to know that date.
If it all the same to you, I would like to arrange/pencil this specific occasion in my schedule. Not only to reschedule my dentist appointment if need be but to confirm the truth in your convictions.
Having said all this The Bible has given us signs that will inform us that we are in the end times. Some are rough like war and pestilence and earthquakes. Some are very specific and dramatic, The sky being darkened and the moon turning the colour of blood. Many people have "jumped the gun" in declaring the second coming of Jesus because they thought they lived in the time of the last great war or they witnessed a great meteor shower. But those who are more cautious are waiting for the definite signs.
What religion can you honestly declare has been cautious with these signs?
God gave us these signs so that we would know the times of His coming, without knowing the actual day or exact time of His arrival.
As a have mentioned before these signs are vague and inconclusive and subject to human faith and hope and have been misunderstood for centuries. You have not giving me any definitive reason why we should take one religion’s word over another.
We do not need to know that and one can be assured if anyone states a date and a time we can know we are listening to a false prophet.
What if one who claims to speak with GOD, announces that there is no prophecy, no last days, no time, no date, no signs, no Armageddon? How does this understanding fit into your beliefs? Can you accurately claim that this person is a false prophet? They haven’t prophesized anything.
If you cannot provide the exact time and date when God is bringing His kingdom, can you or anyone at least provide me with the exact time and date when a religious organization packs up their faith and closes the store after realizing that this kingdom is not coming? Will religions be waiting for as long as it takes? Does this say anything about God’s word or His relationship to humans?
Yes through the Holy Spirit that dwells with me. But that does not mean i am in paradise.
I have lived a fortunate life so far, maybe not the paradise that I have envisioned. Does that mean that paradise is out of my reach or does that mean that this physical existence wasn’t designed to support my ideal paradise? What is your conceptualization of paradise? Can you come close to this realization with what you know that this existence offers? Do you think that any other BEing (spiritual or physical/ Supreme or otherwise) will provide you with your exact definition of paradise? I have a vision of paradise in my mind right now, do you think that God is going to honor or allow it?
This paradise will come about via Gods will. People get the gift of paradise by accepting the gift via acceptance of the messiah Jesus. Those who reject the gift will be removed by force. But that force does not create the kingdom that force removes those who have rejected the kingdom. Jesus has brought me peace of mind already but inner peace is not the same as world peace. That will come when we are changed within via the action of God upon us.
This still sounds like a dictatorship to me. It sounds like we are trading one tyrant for another. Not to mention that no one has yet provided me with any specifics of how this new kingdom is going to function. Yes, yes, the lamb will lay down with the lion, this will look very diplomatic on my new front lawn but what of the aspects of biology, (how will we live forever? what of aging? what of reproduction?), economy (what of money? Is there going to be currency?), occupations (if this is paradise, who is doing all the work? what of professions that people practiced before? what is staying, what is going?), arts (can we create anything or are we going to be censored, bound to God’s will and standards?). What of our personalities, what of our preferences, what of our desires, needs and wants? I believe it was May who addressed these inquiries with the response “that we will have to wait and see when we get there”. I’m sorry May but before I buy into a new/used house or a new/used car I give it a thorough inspection because faith does not cover or guarantee any concerns that arise afterwards. These are the questions that have to be addressed and answered and decided on now if you expect people to consider this new kingdom (and from what I am to understand, time is imperative). I do not think these inquiries are unreasonable or out of place yet no one has satisfactorily answered these questions. And like the day and time when God is going to bring a conclusion to this system of things, the Bible conveniently excludes the exact specifics of what the new system will entail. I find this very suspicious and shortsighted of prophetic Biblical authors.
 

may

Well-Known Member
cardero said:
I believe it was May who addressed these inquiries with the response “that we will have to wait and see when we get there”. I’m sorry May but before I buy into a new/used house or a new/used car I give it a thorough inspection because faith does not cover or guarantee any concerns that arise afterwards. These are the questions that have to be addressed and answered and decided on now if you expect people to consider this new kingdom (and from what I am to understand, time is imperative). I do not think these inquiries are unreasonable or out of place yet no one has satisfactorily answered these questions. And like the day and time when God is going to bring a conclusion to this system of things, the Bible conveniently excludes the exact specifics of what the new system will entail. I find this very suspicious and shortsighted of prophetic Biblical authors.
Hi, i think my answer is more like what the bible tells me, and that is , No more sickness and death , no more wars , no injustice, no violence, and the best ruler (Jesus Christ) sitting on Jehovahs throne forever, this does not mean that we will have no individual personalities or we will not be able to use our brains , before Adam sinned did not Jehovah leave him to name all the animals, it does not mean we will be robots not able to think and use our brains,but now we have to be subject to manmade goverments and suffer the results of that , and manmade goverments really do miss the mark of perfection , but when the rulership of Jesus takes over then it will be the best rulership
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this Isaiah 9;6-7
(Daniel 2:44) "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite
 

DakotaGypsy

Active Member
Well, golly gosh oh gee. I wasn't going to compare Bush to Hitler even though the little Iraqi gambit smacks mightily of Hitler's invasion of Poland.

I was merely going to opine that Bush is convinced that he's God Almighty and he thinks its his destiny to bring about the last days, Armageddon, the Apocalypse, the Last Holocaust. Also, that I can't stand to hear him speak because he sounds like an irresponsible drunk.
 
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