armageddon?? pick a #

[Adstar]

OK, if we're doing dueling quotes, than I'm wondering how this one squares:

Mat. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (cf. Mark 13:20)

If it's undeniable that the Bible teaches that this earth and heaven are going to be destroyed with intense fire, then were are the rest of the "flesh" going to be saved? Or do we have to wait until Mars is colonized before the end times will arrive? And no, that was not a smart remark...it's a serious question.

Matthew 14 22 is not talking about the end of the world. It is talking about the coming of the Messiah Jesus and the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the earth at this time causing great destruction and death. But not all people will be destroyed during this terrible time on earth. The Messiah Jesus will reign for another 1000 years between the events talked about it Matthew 24 and the events talked about in Revelation: 20 7-10


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Super Universe]

Matt. 6:10: "Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth."​

Ps. 37:29: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it................. no the bible says the righetous will reside forever on the earth, so i dont think the bible teaches that the earth will burn up , that is mans thoughts not Gods.
A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite..... Ecclesiates 1;4

He has founded the earth upon its established places;​

It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever ...... psalm 104 ;5

I know the JW's teach that the paradise earth will be home for the good souls who have earned it and only the 144,000 get heaven.

Think for yourself for a moment. Why don't you deserve heaven? Maybe the JW's got this one little thing wrong?

I'm not trying to tear down your whole religion, I know JW's are good people, but if you can just trust your own judgement for once your spirituality would grow tremendously. It will leap as if finally freed from it's cage.

Don't blindly follow anyone or anything. You are responsible for what you believe, not them, and certainly not I.

God does not need you to go to a building built by humans and pay and listen to a human tell you about God. He will not appear in church, has He ever?

God wants you to come looking for Him on your own. Trust yourself. Trust your conscience. Leave the bible behind and go look in the meadow, the garden, the forrest.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, Booko!

I guess we're going to have to find a Greek guru to tell us whether it's "aion"/"eon" or "eras"/"era."

And while I vaguely seem to remember some around, I'm afraid the "ducklingss" reference doesn't quite connect....

Bruce

 

[may]

I know the JW's teach that the paradise earth will be home for the good souls who have earned it and only the 144,000 get heaven.

Think for yourself for a moment. Why don't you deserve heaven? Maybe the JW's got this one little thing wrong?

I'm not trying to tear down your whole religion, I know JW's are good people, but if you can just trust your own judgement for once your spirituality would grow tremendously. It will leap as if finally freed from it's cage.

Don't blindly follow anyone or anything. You are responsible for what you believe, not them, and certainly not I.

God does not need you to go to a building built by humans and pay and listen to a human tell you about God. He will not appear in church, has He ever?

God wants you to come looking for Him on your own. Trust yourself. Trust your conscience. Leave the bible behind and go look in the meadow, the garden, the forrest.

but i would rather live in a paradise earth , it brings joy to my heart just thinking about it , and after all , that was Gods original purpose for the earth ..... for humans to live on it forever .......... in peace ....... thats what we were created to do in the first place ............. and as you mentioned ,the forests ,the gardens ,and the meadows are they not wonderful things to behold, but at the momment with the earth in the state it is in now , because of man ruining the earth ,it will be even better when the earth is back to paradise condtions, no i am looking foreward to a paradise earth , the way it should be , what a wonderful hope for the future. we dont need to pay to learn about Gods promises in the bible , its free

 

[Endless]

Do not forget that although the Bible teaches the earth will be destroyed by fire - it also teaches that God will create a new earth Booko. That is where we will reign. Or do we think this is too hard for God to do?

 

[cardero]

Nobody has explained to me when this actual day will occur or why this event is taking so long.

 

[Ori]

We're all going to die!

But I always thought that was obvious.

 

[Adstar]

Nobody has explained to me when this actual day will occur or why this event is taking so long.

No body but God knows when this day will occur.

Why is it taking so long?

Because God is waiting for all those who will believe in Jesus to be born and accept Jesus as Messiah. As soon as that number is reached then the end shall come.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, all!

In fact, in the Baha'i view, all this has already happened, so we're actually referring to history, not to the future!

The "Battle of Armageddon" took place during World War I (as Popeye/Scott mentioned) when General Allenby defeated the Turks on the Plain of Megiddo not too far from Haifa, Palestine.

And the Return of the Christ Spirit took place in the mid-Nineteenth Century, fulfilling a whole bunch of other prophecies in the process! Please note that these fulfillments were mostly spiritual rather than literal, just as they were at Christ's First Coming! (And the reason the Jews rejected Him is because they were insisting on a literal fulfillment. So I humbly suggest that there's a moral here!)

As to the thousand years, IOV they've already begun, and although clearly peace hasn't yet shone fully on the world, this will become more and more an established fact as humanity progresses. Very little that's good or worthwhile is ever erected without effort and, tragically, opposition. . . .

Regards,

Bruce

 

[cardero]

No body but God knows when this day will occur.

Why is it taking so long?

Because God is waiting for all those who will believe in Jesus to be born and accept Jesus as Messiah. As soon as that number is reached then the end shall come.

Some Thoughts to Consider

One must understand that each generation spawns another series of physical entities and waiting for every soul to repent is a never ending cycle. The idea of set number also suggests that if everyone stops procreating, we can thwart God’s plan.

One must understand that every generation has experienced the same signs as depicted in the Bible and has faithfully waited with great anticipation for the coming of this kingdom. Every generation in history has believed at one time that they were living in the last days.

One must understand that if the day is going to happen by an omnipotent God that there is nothing that we can do, feel or say that will change that day and revealing the actual time and day will not change the mind of a Supreme Being who already knows who is going to survive and who is not. So why the mystery?

One must understand that everyone has their own understanding of paradise and that not every understanding will agree with God’s. A Supreme Being has their own understanding of Paradise complete with its own set of Laws and rules which goes directly against the term paradise. Basically what you are doing is trading in one governing system for another with the option that if you do not agree with this leader’s idea of Paradise you can be removed. We already have had many governing nations who have accommodated the termination of lives because they did not agree with the current rule. What are you trading up to?

One must understand that any real relationship worth encouraging and flourishing is based on trust and truth not faith and hope. If any relationship with and entity (supreme or otherwise) is withholding trust or truth and instead relies on your faith and hope, than this relationship must be re-examined.

One must understand that most everything that this new kingdom is providing can in time, in knowledge in understanding and in practice be achieved by humans themselves.

 

[Adstar]

Some Thoughts to Consider

One must understand that each generation spawns another series of physical entities and waiting for every soul to repent is a never ending cycle. The idea of set number also suggests that if everyone stops procreating, we can thwart God’s plan.

No we are not waiting for every one to repent. We know that most will not repent. We are waiting for the time of the gentiles to be fulfilled. Only God knows the number. And there is absolutely no way that anyone can thwart God's eternal plan.

One must understand that every generation has experienced the same signs as depicted in the Bible and has faithfully waited with great anticipation for the coming of this kingdom. Every generation in history has believed at one time that they were living in the last days.

No not every generation has experienced the same signs and the final generation before the coming of the Messiah Jesus will experience signs never seen before. Many generations have made mistakes out of a desire for Jesus to come. But God knows His timing and it will not be accelerated because men want it to be.

One must understand that if the day is going to happen by an omnipotent God that there is nothing that we can do, feel or say that will change that day and revealing the actual time and day will not change the mind of a Supreme Being who already knows who is going to survive and who is not. So why the mystery?

What "mystery” are you talking about?

God is wise enough to know how to give the truth so as only those He gives wisdom to will understand. Jesus used parables so that those who rejected the Love of the truth would hear but not understand. The book of Revelation performs the same function. Revealing all, but only to those whose minds are opened to understanding via the action of the Holy Spirit.

One must understand that everyone has their own understanding of paradise and that not every understanding will agree with God’s.

Thats true.

A Supreme Being has their own understanding of Paradise complete with its own set of Laws and rules which goes directly against the term paradise.

Thats not true. Eternity with God is paradise.

Basically what you are doing is trading in one governing system for another with the option that if you do not agree with this leader’s idea of Paradise you can be removed.

No. God decides what paradise entails and i accept His will.

We already have had many governing nations who have accommodated the termination of lives because they did not agree with the current rule. What are you trading up to?

The eternal governing Authority that has no faults.

One must understand that any real relationship worth encouraging and flourishing is based on trust and truth not faith and hope. If any relationship with and entity (supreme or otherwise) is withholding trust or truth and instead relies on your faith and hope, than this relationship must be re-examined.

Faith is trust, And hope is confidence in what one trusts in. If one trusts in God then they can have hope. Because they trust in Truth.

One must understand that most everything that this new kingdom is providing can in time, in knowledge in understanding and in practice be achieved by humans themselves.

No way. There is absolutely no way that humans can ever achieve the perfect Kingdom by their own efforts. This is vanity and pride personified. Humans have a built in fault that will only be overcome through the intervention of God upon the nature of mankind. Only after the resurrection will we be made able to live in Gods eternal Kingdom.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[may]

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No way. There is absolutely no way that humans can ever achieve the perfect Kingdom by their own efforts. This is vanity and pride personified. Humans have a built in fault that will only be overcome through the intervention of God upon the nature of mankind. Only after the resurrection will we be made able to live in Gods eternal Kingdom.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

i also agree that man will never be able to acheive true peace on the earth without Gods intervention, i also believe that even now many things are happening that are to do with Gods purpose for this earth. and one of those things is that a great gathering of people from all nations is now on going ,and these ones, that the bible calls,........a great crowd .....that no man can number ..revelation 7;9-10 these are the ones that will be willing to be taught by Jehovah God and Jesus Christ , and even now , are learning Gods ways and doing their best to live according to Gods standards . but after Gods war of Armaggeddon, when HE , not man ,gets rid of the wicked off the earth , it will be even easier to do things Gods way , because all of the oppossers will be gone for good.and the ones who are resurrected on to the paradise earth will have a clean slate so to speak ,and then they can learn the real life also
"They will all be taught by Jehovah."—JOHN 6:45.
And all your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant. Isaiah 54; 13
And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: "Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths." For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore Isaiah 2;2-4
(Psalm 46:9) He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire. .....yes Gods people nolonger learn war, only peace,
And he will actually speak peace to the nations; and his rulership will be from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of [the] earth...Zacariah 9;10

 

[cardero]

Adstar writes: What "mystery” are you talking about?

The time and date,

Adstar writes: Faith is trust, And hope is confidence in what one trusts in. If one trusts in God then they can have hope. Because they trust in Truth. Faith is trust, And hope is confidence in what one trusts in. If one trusts in God then they can have hope. Because they trust in Truth.

Then why hasn’t any religious organization who believes they have God’s backing been “entrusted” with the time and the date of this event?

Adstar writes: Thats not true. Eternity with God is paradise.

Is GOD not with you now?

Adstar writes: God decides what paradise entails and i accept His will.

How is this will of Paradise to be achieved? By force? What is the significant factor that GOD can perform to bring about this peace that man cannot do through understanding?

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

its not going to come until we dont expect it to. it will not come until people stop maing treads like this

 

[Adstar]

Hi cardero

Adstar writes: Faith is trust, And hope is confidence in what one trusts in. If one trusts in God then they can have hope. Because they trust in Truth. Faith is trust, And hope is confidence in what one trusts in. If one trusts in God then they can have hope. Because they trust in Truth.

"Then why hasn’t any religious organization who believes they have God’s backing been “entrusted” with the time and the date of this event?"

Because God desires for us not to know the date. What happens when a group of people believe that Jesus is coming on a certain date? They withdraw from society into some compound in the middle of nowhere and stop spreading the Gospel. God wants us witnessing to the very end. We do not need to know that date. All we need to know is that one day Jesus will return to establish His earthy physical kingdom.

Having said all this The Bible has given us signs that will inform us that we are in the end times. Some are rough like war and pestilence and earthquakes. Some are very specific and dramatic, The sky being darkened and the moon turning the colour of blood. Many people have "jumped the gun" in declaring the second coming of Jesus because they thought they lived in the time of the last great war or they witnessed a great meteor shower. But those who are more cautious are waiting for the definite signs. God gave us these signs so that we would know the times of His coming, without knowing the actual day or exact time of His arrival. We do not need to know that and one can be assured if anyone states a date and a time we can know we are listening to a false prophet.

Adstar writes: Thats not true. Eternity with God is paradise.

"Is GOD not with you now?"


Yes through the Holy Spirit that dwells with me. But that does not mean i am in paradise. We are members of Gods Spiritual kingdom awaiting the fulfilment of His physical kingdom. The Kingdom exists but it has not progressed to its final form.

Adstar writes: God decides what paradise entails and i accept His will.

How is this will of Paradise to be achieved? By force? What is the significant factor that GOD can perform to bring about this peace that man cannot do through understanding?


This paradise will come about via Gods will. People get the gift of paradise by accepting the gift via acceptance of the messiah Jesus. Those who reject the gift will be removed by force. But that force does not create the kingdom that force removes those who have rejected the kingdom. Jesus has brought me peace of mind already but inner peace is not the same as world peace. That will come when we are changed within via the action of God upon us.


Jeremiah 31
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Ezekiel 11
19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,[a] and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

1Corrinthians 15
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ashai]

OK, if we're doing dueling quotes, than I'm wondering how this one squares:

Mat. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (cf. Mark 13:20)
If it's undeniable that the Bible teaches that this earth and heaven are going to be destroyed with intense fire, then were are the rest of the "flesh" going to be saved? Or do we have to wait until Mars is colonized before the end times will arrive? And no, that was not a smart remark...it's a serious question.

Ushta booko

The point is that literalist Christians , believe, rightly in my opinion and I have searched the linguistics of the New Testament and know Koine Greek pretty good, that the Bible teaches that the earth, world, humanity, will end in an Armageddon like scenario.

You make a point that is very good, but the problem is that a literalist will not accept an obvious contradiction but will 'harmonize' the passages somehow.

I, not being Christian, (although I once was) can see the contradiction you see, and can just chalk it up to the contradictory nature of Biblical theology like the other many contradictions that the 'true believers; can't and don't want to see.

I notice that you are Bahai, like my friend Scott, so I will venture that, like him, you assign this contradicxtion to an allegory. From a hermeneutical point of view, allegories to be accepatable, as possible interpretation of passages, will have to have independent support, that is there has to be other similar uses of the central points of a story as allegorical elsewhere, preferably in literature that is non-biblical

Take the idea of fire being a symbol, it certainly is in many instances but it is not in others, so when specifically Peter says that the earth will be destroyed by fire and chimes in that the very elements will be destroyed, it can hardly be an allegory since there is no other place in the Bible or outside the Bible within the Jewsih culture ( it is important that we relate the Biblical allegories to at least turnof the 1st Century Jewish culture) where fire is seen burning the elements ( Earth, Fire, Air and Water)

This is a literal fire that Peter is talking about Therefore as your post points out , even if you do not agree, this is a contradiction. One of many, I am afraid.

Ushta te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

I wish I had time to explain all of this right now but I am dead center in my fourth period class so I will make this short. Seven in the bible is always considered perfect, why? I am not sure. ...

Ushta

The reason why 7 is considered perfect , in Biblical interpretation not in the Bible itself, is that god according to revelations has 7 Spirits. Now 7 has been a sort of magical # in many cultures, Romans and Greeks considered it a very auspicious # because it encompassed the 7 heavenly bodies known to them ( Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) This seems to be the same reason why Babylonians, Sumerians and Egyptians also thought of 7 as a special #.

However the only other concept of 7 as a divine # signifying completion and perfection, as regarding God, comes from the Young Avesta where in Ahura Mazda is said to have 7 Amesha Spentas, or Bountiful Immortal Spirit beings that with Him complete the Godhead. Since the Jewish Bible does not link 7 specifically to God's personhood, it seems that there might have been influenced on the New Testament by the much older Young Avesta which would not be the first time either.

Ushta te
Ashai

The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard:dan:

 

[ashai]

Greetings!



No, I'm afraid not "everybody" knows this!

And as many Baha'is can tell you, for example, in fact the Bible does not speak of the end of the world!

This is actually a mistranslation by the compilers of the King James Bible.

See, the word in the original Greek is "eras," which means "world" or "age."

And IOV the translators picked the wrong meaning, and this passage in fact refers to the end of the Age!

(Which, BTW, we Baha'is see as already having come about....)

Regards,

Bruce

Ushta Bruce

Sorry, but its Aion in Koine Greek , meaning eon or era/age as in a very long period of time
Aion also means word in a secondary ( at best) sense. In this passage you might be right, in the passage quoted before in 2 Peter ( I believe) which talks about the very elements being set afire, however, this has to be world or cosmos ( I do not have the passage in front of me in either Koine or English but by context it is obvious it is not talking of Age):tsk:

Ushta Te
Ashai

The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard :dan:

 

[ashai]

Greetings, all!

In fact, in the Baha'i view, all this has already happened, so we're actually referring to history, not to the future!

The "Battle of Armageddon" took place during World War I (as Popeye/Scott mentioned) when General Allenby defeated the Turks on the Plain of Megiddo not too far from Haifa, Palestine.

And the Return of the Christ Spirit took place in the mid-Nineteenth Century, fulfilling a whole bunch of other prophecies in the process! Please note that these fulfillments were mostly spiritual rather than literal, just as they were at Christ's First Coming! (And the reason the Jews rejected Him is because they were insisting on a literal fulfillment. So I humbly suggest that there's a moral here!)

As to the thousand years, IOV they've already begun, and although clearly peace hasn't yet shone fully on the world, this will become more and more an established fact as humanity progresses. Very little that's good or worthwhile is ever erected without effort and, tragically, opposition. . . .

Regards,

Bruce

Ushta Bruce:bow:

I am sorry but since the king of the East is said ( somewhere in Revelations darn I don't have my Bible with me!) to be involved in this battle with an army of some 20 million, I believe that the WW I reference does not quite fit!:tsk:

Ushta Te
Ashai
The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard:dan:

 

[ashai]

"No way. There is absolutely no way that humans can ever achieve the perfect Kingdom by their own efforts. This is vanity and pride personified. Humans have a built in fault that will only be overcome through the intervention of God upon the nature of mankind. Only after the resurrection will we be made able to live in Gods eternal Kingdom."
Adstar

Ushta Adstar

Who placed this built fault in humans? Since the Creator , created humans it must have been Him? So why does S/He need to interfere to remove the fault S/He placed , in us in the first place? And why place in us this fault, and why judge us and condemn us for a fault S/He placed in us?

Sorry! But it simply does not make any sense!

Ushta Te
Ashai