Arizona and red flag laws

[Stanyon]

Uncle Sam, on the other hand, trends to not care who gets them, what they get, and why they get them. It's super easy to get a gun in America because the laws are so relaxed and little enforced. And we have lots of gun crime. We don't need military weapons as civilians

-Go buy a gun at a gun shop and see firsthand what it takes.
-laws are in place and some are not enorced to the level they should be, that is not a failure of gun laws but the people enforcing them. The NRA has been saying for years that we need to enforce the laws already in place instead of creating new ones yet they are the "bad guys"
-we also have no need for high performance sports cars for civilians but does that mean we need to make them illegal?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

-Go buy a gun at a gun shop and see firsthand what it takes.

-Im aware.
-gun laws are terrible inadequate in many areas, such as mandatory safety training and occasional reevaluation.
-we do seriously need to be more strict with driving. Many people are responsible. Many people have proven themselves reckless and irresponsible yet are still allowed to drive.

 

[Stanyon]

-gun laws are terrible inadequate in many areas, such as mandatory safety training and occasional reevaluation.

How would this affect those in poorer communities that are law abiding citizens whose communities are impacted the most by violent crime? Would you be o.k.with stripping someone of their rights simply because they couldn't afford the costs of mandatory training and re-evaluation?

 

[fantome profane]

When you purchase a gun, you must, under penalty of perjury, identify any mental illness treatment

Is that a joke? You really believe self reporting of mental problems is sufficient?

Why not include “ are you planning a mass shooting” as part of the questionnaire. That would stop them cold.

 

[Stanyon]

really believe self reporting of mental problems is sufficient?

Question 11f BATF form 4473, it is a felony to lie on the form and is punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of $250,000.

 

[fantome profane]

Question 11f BATF form 4473, it is a felony to lie on the form and is punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of $250,000.

Of course. That is what concerns a potential mass shooter the most. A perjury charge.

I am getting a headache from rolling my eyes at this.

 

[Stanyon]

Of course. That is what concerns a potential mass shooter the most. A perjury charge.

I am getting a headache from rolling my eyes at this.

A potential mass shooter....

A sober man drives to a liquor store and buys a bottle of whiskey, using your logic wouldn't that make him a potential drunk driver?

 

[fantome profane]

A potential mass shooter....

A sober man drives to a liquor store and buys a bottle of whiskey, using your logic wouldn't that make him a potential drunk driver?

If I had suggested that everyone buying a gun is a potential mass shooter you would be right to point out the absurdity of that logic. However I made no such suggestion.

 

[Stanyon]

If I had suggested that everyone buying a gun is a potential mass shooter you would be right to point out the absurdity of that logic. However I made no such suggestion.

So what are you suggesting?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How would this affect those in poorer communities that are law abiding citizens whose communities are impacted the most by violent crime? Would you be o.k.with stripping someone of their rights simply because they couldn't afford the costs of mandatory training and re-evaluation?

If that's really the reason you're against better mandatory training, then I trust you'd support the requirement as long as the training was subsidized for those who couldn't afford it otherwise.

... right?

 

[fantome profane]

So what are you suggesting?

That it is ridiculous to expect that those few who are contemplating committing a mass shooting will self report their mental state on a form, even at the risk of having to pay a substantial fine for not doing so.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A potential mass shooter....

A sober man drives to a liquor store and buys a bottle of whiskey, using your logic wouldn't that make him a potential drunk driver?

Here in Ontario - like many other places - it's illegal for a bottle of alcohol to be in reach of the driver. There's no exemption for people who say they're planning not to drink it while they're driving.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That it is ridiculous to expect that those few who are contemplating committing a mass shooting will self report their mental state on a form, even at the risk of having to pay a substantial fine for not doing so.

Right: if, in the mind of the person buying the guns, nobody will find out about his dangerous mental health issues until an incident where he expects to die by cop or by suicide, there's no penalty that would work as a deterrent for this sort of false statement.

 

[Stanyon]

That it is ridiculous to expect that those few who are contemplating committing a mass shooting will self report their mental state on a form, even at the risk of having to pay a substantial fine for not doing so.

Ignoring that you would get flagged during the background check if one was previously found unstable by a court of law.

 

[Shad]

Really? Alexander Hamilton was killed in a dual. Barr was charged with murder in two states for shooting and killing him. And we keep getting more relaxed with gun laws as the centuries go by.

The opposite is true. Duels were still legal in some states but are illegal now. There were no background checks then, there are checks now.

 

[Shad]

That it is ridiculous to expect that those few who are contemplating committing a mass shooting will self report their mental state on a form, even at the risk of having to pay a substantial fine for not doing so.

So lets subject every citizen to a mental evaluation in the form of a questionnaire (hahahah) every time they want to buy a gun? You think people can not bluff a questionnaire? Or is government going to spend millions to billion to have mental evaluations by professional all the time? After all how long does an evaluation remain valid? Day 1 the person could be fine. Day 2 they have a breakdown to a cause.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So lets subject every citizen to a mental evaluation in the form of a questionnaire (hahahah) every time they want to buy a gun? You think people can not bluff a questionnaire? Or is government going to spend millions ot billion to have mental evaluations by professional all the time?

What's wrong with my solution?

Use the fact that a person is trying to obtain a gun for "self defense" as evidence that their judgement is poor enough that they shouldn't be allowed a firearm.

 

[Shad]

What's wrong with my solution?

Costs, quality of the evaluation, shelf life of the evaluation, avoiding negative results of basic tests and subjecting a citizen to a process without evidence ergo a violation of due process.

Use the fact that a person is trying to obtain a gun for "self defense" as evidence that their judgement is poor enough that they shouldn't be allowed a firearm.

Completely subjective standard based on your opinion and monopolization of gun use for defense by the state and "professionals"

 

[shmogie]

Is that a joke? You really believe self reporting of mental problems is sufficient?

Why not include “ are you planning a mass shooting” as part of the questionnaire. That would stop them cold.

No, it isn´t sufficient. Thank you for making my point. A law banning "assault" weapons, semi auto firearms, all firearms etc. will not stop criminal shootings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, it isn´t sufficient. Thank you for making my point. A law banning "assault" weapons, semi auto firearms, all firearms etc. will not stop criminal shootings.

No; it will just make them less frequent and reduce their death toll.