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Arizona and red flag laws

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by shmogie, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    The Republican Governor of Arizona, Doug Ducey was talking about being behind a so called red flag law in Arizona.

    There apparently were discussions about bringing a red *** law to the floor of the state legislature.

    The citizens of the state voiced their serious concerns about the absence of due process and protection from unreasonable searches and seizures,

    The law has been abandoned.

    Arizona for now will not have one of these laws.

    Arizona remains a state that respects the rights of firearms owners, and respects the Constitution.
     
  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    So, what's a red flag law?
    And like it or not, we're gonna have to cut back on guns. Having more of them isn't solving our problems.We had muskets in 1776, not easily concealed full auto handguns. Even the handguns then were slow loading and not fast firing, which didn't make them conducive of impulsive violence.
     
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  3. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Per Wikipedia: "In the United States, a red flag law is a gun control law that permits police or family members to petition a state court to order the temporary removal of firearms from a person who may present a danger to others or themselves. A judge makes the determination to issue the order based on statements and actions made by the gun owner in question"

    I would support a red flag law. People who are a danger to themselves or others should not have guns in the same way that someone convicted of driving drunk multiple times should not have a driver's license.
     
  4. Stanyon

    Stanyon WWMRD?

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    Maybe we should be looking more into the root causes and influences of impulsive violence. Though there were far more households with firearms even military surplus guns pre 60s we didn't see near the levels of violence in our society, what changed in society over the years to cause this?
    I think any honest discussion about violence is incomplete without discussing this.
     
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  5. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    These are illegal already.
     
  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Have full auto handguns been used in any crimes?
     
  7. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Bad analogy. A person convicted of a crime is different than someone reasonably suspected of potentially committing a crime.

    That said, utilizing the courts does allow for some process. The question of whether that is enough is still debatable.
     
  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    In most states, those that a police officer or physician determine are a danger to themselves or others can be taken into custody for a psychiatric evaluation. It is a medical issue.

    Red flag laws throw out the presumption of innocence, and presume the subject is guilty. He is subjected as a result of that presumed guilt to a seizure of property and a search of his home. The probable cause for that search is not based upon evidence of a violation of law, but is based upon the statements of others, regardless of motive or bias, and usually are not about a violation of law.

    To have his property returned, he must prove himself innocent. He must wait for a hearing, seek legal counsel and essentially beg for his property taken by the government to be returned to him

    He has no opportunity to defend his right to own a firearm before a judgement is made, and his legal right to own a firearm is never revoked. Yet his guns are taken.

    Your example of a drunk driver perfectly makes my point. A drunk driver is observed driving while drunk by the police. There are objective criteria for them to determine he is drunk. He then has a trial where he can offer a defense for the charge, Only after being found guilty can his license be revoked,

    Compare that procedure to what happens in a red flag confiscation.
     
  9. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    LOL !!!!
     
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    The founders knew of firearms that fired multiple shots from a single loading, they existed at the time of the signing of the Constitution.. Revolvers that fire 6 rounds from a single loading have been extant for 200 years, double action revolvers that fire six rounds as quickly as you pull the trigger have existed for well over a century, and semi auto firearms have been owned by Americans for a century.

    Cut back on guns ? Not me
     
  11. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely. The actions of people cause deaths. When I was young, you could by a gun through the mail, yet mass shootings were unknown.

    Something is causing them, and it isn´t guns.
     
  12. fantome profane

    fantome profane Have you read the Mueller Report?
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    They always say that it is a mental health issue whenever there is one of these mass shootings. But the same people who claim this oppose any effort to prevent those who may be suffering from mental problems from getting guns.
     
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  13. Stanyon

    Stanyon WWMRD?

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    Being found mentally incompetent by a court of law will bar you from buying a gun legally, this has been on the ATF form 4473 for years. Background check will catch this and lying on the form is a federal crime.
     
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  14. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    While this seems to make sense in principle, it's actually an extremely dangerous law to put in place.

    Considerably more so than the gun itself in my opinion as it would create the opening of legislation for "what if" type speculation to be treated as an actual offense.

    It certainly paves the way for a far more dystopian society than it already is thus far which likely can lead to horrific oppression.
     
  15. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    The Socialist Democrats keep ignoring that and stupidly continue to say it's the guns themselves when in fact we've had guns throughout our entire history is a country without these kinds of problems and issues.

    Personally I think it's misinformation and mass media overload that has a lot to do with it and the fact that mass media is so much more prevalent in people's lives.

    Even I noticed from time to time, the bizarre disconnect if I spend too much time on the internet and not enough time out in the real world around me.

    It's the clashing of a media generated reality vs. physical reality where some people go off the edge when they can't tell the difference and conflate the two.
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    You've pretty much always had these issues. The firearm death rate was worse back in those good old days:

    [​IMG]

    QuickStats: Death Rates* for Three Selected Causes of Injury†— National Vital Statistics System, United States, 1979–2012

    It's just that it's still too high and people are fed up.
     
  17. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Really ? How do you figure that ? When you purchase a gun, you must, under penalty of perjury, identify any mental illness treatment you have had on the background form.

    I have never heard anyone in the NRA propose rescinding this question.
     
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Yup. If someone is suicidal or homicidal there are many of us who have to take that seriously. Including notifying the police and some others to get ahold of a judge to sign an emergency detainment. That is when the evidence presented before a judge convinces a judge to legally deem someone a danger to themselves and others. That's too be reported to law enforcement agencies, and often times for their safety and the safety of others guns, stashed pills, and anything the paitent mentions as a potential source of problems is temporally removed and often placed with family or a friend. Locking stuff in a safe and giving the key to mom is another common one.
     
    #18 Shadow Wolf, Aug 25, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Are you proud of what that has gotten us? The rest of the developed world has gun control, guns, but little gun crime. Uncle Sam, on the other hand, trends to not care who gets them, what they get, and why they get them. It's super easy to get a gun in America because the laws are so relaxed and little enforced. And we have lots of gun crime. We don't need military weapons as civilians, we don't need to give them to everyone who wants them sans safety mandates and training, and we don't need handguns. Those are impulsive, often used in crime and suicide and arent worth the problems. The good guys with a gun are just too rare to rely on, despite heavy gun ownership. And shooters get creative, so even armed areas will fall to shootings when the halls are crowded or when people are gathered down the road from a tall hotel.
     
  20. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Really? Alexander Hamilton was killed in a dual. Barr was charged with murder in two states for shooting and killing him. And we keep getting more relaxed with gun laws as the centuries go by. We don't even know any longer what the real "wild west" was like, where carrying a gun in town was frequently discouraged, typically considered something done by troublemakers, and often illegal.
     
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