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Featured Argumentum ad populum

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by nPeace, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    The scientific consensus says and said a lot of things - many wrong, a few maybe right.
    What's your point? Or perhaps you missed the OP's. I suggest you did.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Evangelicals don't study history or science.
     
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  3. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    The problem here is that words like "skeptic" and "consensus" have changed their meanings over the last fifty years.

    "Skeptic" used to mean someone who doubted claims of all sorts until they were established by cold hard fact. Now it means any individual who latches on to and parrots the latest soup of the day science.

    "Consensus" used to mean the state of the art in terms of theory and best guesses about the nature of something. Now it means "Reality" as determined by the opinion of "Peers".
     
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  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    "REAL scientists follow the scientific method"
    Let me ask the poster below you what they think. @sayak83 is that true?
    In regard to your question @sayak83, I didn't see you respond to my last post, so I thought you had nothing more to say.
    I didn't bother pushing anything else, since I wanted to be sure we were going to be "on even keel".
     
  5. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Are you not capable of answering the question yourself? Do you believe that there are REAL scientists out there who do NOT employ the scientific method? If so, what makes them scientists?
     
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  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh. So you admit that you are confused.
    Please, why try to squeeze everyone in your boat. You need company to make you comfortable?
    Yup. YOU, not everyone else, including myself, are the one that clearly is confused.
    Read the OP again... if you did, and look at your post again.
    Why is it we always have this problem... :)?

    Besides that, did you bother to read the short record of scientific consensus, in the OP? it's the spoiler, in case you didn't bother with it.
    Also here is another...
    Scientific consensus is the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study. Consensus implies general agreement, though not necessarily unanimity.
    Consensus is achieved through communication at conferences, the publication process, replication (of reproducible results by others), scholarly debate, and peer review.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    The problem with this is that objective reality is apparently subjective.
    For example...
    Can we objectively tell design or not?
    Does objective reality dictate that, design requires a designer?
    Does objective reality dictate that for us to have a system which is designed to carry out specific instructions, based on a "blueprint", or a "structure" of precisely coded instructions needed to be communicated... that an intelligent 'mind' must be involved?
    What objective reality is opposed to these?

    I believe objective reality can be, and often is seen as such, based on subjectivity. So there is really perhaps a minuscule amount of objective reality where man is concerned.
    However, I believe there is objective reality to the one(s) in the absolute position to know and determine it.
    So objective reality is, but man knows very little about those realities.

    For me, the reason I believe with 99.99% certainty that I have the truth, is based on many reasons, but one is mentioned here...
    1 Timothy 4:7-10, 15, 16 7 But reject irreverent false stories, like those told by old women. On the other hand, train yourself with godly devotion as your aim. 8 For physical training is beneficial for a little, but godly devotion is beneficial for all things, as it holds promise of the life now and the life that is to come. 9 That statement is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance. 10 This is why we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.
    15 Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, so that your advancement may be plainly seen by all people. 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

    In case you don't understand what the above is saying...
    The statement, "For physical training is beneficial for a little, but godly devotion is beneficial for all things, as it holds promise of the life now and the life that is to come." is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance.
    Why?
    Because we have rested our hope on a living God.
    How do we know there is a living God?
    Two reasons. 1. The "objective reality" that we see in the creative works of an intelligent designer, and 2. The information handed down by observers of "objective realities"... which has proven to be both reliable, and trustworthy.
    We also have living proof of these realities.
    Those I am not about to get into with you again. Concrete is a very hard substance. If it is well mixed, it takes a great deal of work and much energy to crack it, but steel... that needs a lot of time, and chemicals, to erode it. Or, we need a furnace.
     
    #187 nPeace, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why use it when debating, and arguing the point that something is true, unless it's the case they are saying, "This is true because look at this (statistic / agreement etc.)".
    Many times I have responded with... Look at gay marriage (in the US). Because the majority accept it, it does not mean it is right.
    This is the argument of the OP.
    It's a fallacy based on how it is used.
     
    #188 nPeace, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't need your advice, as apparently you don't even seem to be responding to anything I said, including the OP.

    As far as advice goes, I have none for people who use the kind of approach in this post. It seems to convey arrogance, one usually gets from a person 'puffed up with pride'.


    Many times. Too often, actually. It began to sound like a clanging bell, that just goes on, and does not stop.

    The thing about the mountains of evidence, is that whenever one "piece" is presented, it is shown to be based on speculation, and assumptions.
    This is why persons on these forums see the need to bring up another, with the same results.
    Simply because they cannot refute that fact, for two reasons... 1. It's right there in the journals - staring everyone in the face, and 2. if it could not be refuted, every scientist would accept it... without question.
    That isn't the case.

    The mountain becomes a mudslide, every time someone pulls a piece of the "evidence" from it.


    I never said that. Once again your arrogance is showing.
    As to the implication, please, your pride is making it hard for you to understand simple statements in one little OP. That's terrible. don't you think?

    Speaking of opinion, "scientific consensus" is often just that, even though it is claimed to be scientific truth.
    It isn't. Not by a long stretch.
    Again... it is written in the journals.
    Scientific consensus - Wikipedia
     
    #189 nPeace, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised.
    Why do you associate luck with science and medicine?
    So you think millions of people get lucky, because they don't do things according to your world view?
    It seems like you are saying, something is good, only when it is in agreement with what you believe.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That may be your experience. Mine is different.

    Thanks.


    Okay.
     
  12. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but rereading your confusing post doesn't make it any less confusing. If you're incapable of clarifying what you mean, then I'm pretty sure it wasn't a point worth hearing in the first place.
     
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  13. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    No, the problem appears to be that you are incapable of answering a simple question. Instead of just replying to the question: Do you believe that there are REAL scientists out there who do NOT employ the scientific method? If so, what makes them scientists? you feel compelled to dodge the question by asking a series of questions of your own that don't even apply to what I asked.
     
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  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. That was not in response to you.
    I was going to respond to you, and then decided to forego a response until later.
    Interestingly you did not pick up on that.
    The automatic save feature on RF is a good feature, but can sometimes get in the way if not careful.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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  16. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Only if you consider me asking you questions that you apparently don't want to answer to be 'bullying'.
     
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  17. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    The reason you believe with 99.99% certainty that you have the truth, is rooted primarily in your extensive indoctrination.

    There are many "believers" who have come to different conclusions about "The Truth". You can't all be right.
     
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  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Well yes I do.
    I did not say I will not answer the question. So you apparently are demanding that I answer you now. Not to mention, claiming that I don't want to answer.
    I have a reason for deferring the question to someone who is a practicing scientist.
    Do you have a problem with that?
     
  19. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Water seeping into concrete can cause it to crack. The only chemical needed to erode steel is water. Don't you know that?
     
  20. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    So sorry that you are so thin skinned that asking you questions constitutes 'bullying' in your mind. Perhaps a site like this where people ask questions isn't the best place for you.

    And I DO have a problem with you dodging a simple question. I really don't care what this practicing scientist you know happens to think, because I asked YOU. Are YOU of the opinion that there are genuine scientists out there who do NOT use the scientific method? If not, what makes them scientists?

    If you need to ask someone else what YOU think then attempting a conversation with YOU is apparently a worthless endeavor.
     
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