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Argument for God from Platonism

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
1. All things that exist must have a Form.
2. Consciousness exists.
3. So, there must be a Form of consciousness.
4. A transcendent, causal, eternal force that contains consciousness, self-awareness, and intent is the most basic definition of God.
5. Therefore, a God of this definition must exist.

I already know from experience that premise one is by far the most confusing and misunderstood step, so it will probably be the main focus of this writing. The basic idea behind Plato’s Theory of Forms is that there are two worlds: the physical world perceived empirically, and the ideal world perceived intellectually. This should not be thought of like substance dualism, as Forms are not substance, they are essence. If we take a shape, such as a pentagram, there are theoretically unlimited ways we could draw it. Different sizes, poorly measured lines, wrong angles, different colors, make it out of different material, etc and so on. Yet no matter what the differences, we can still recognize it as the shape of a pentagram, a five-pointed star formed by a continuous, five segmented line. Same with triangles as three sided, three pointed shapes. One of the main arguments for Forms is based on mathematics and geometry like this. Imagine if we tried to make every triangle absolutely perfect, it would take years to get even the simplest project finished. Yet we treat all the measurements as absolutely perfect, and it works.

Forms go far beyond geometry though, according to the theory there has to be a Form for everything. This is because like geometrical shapes, all other things are a collection of defining properties/characteristics. The most fundamental Forms (at least one of them) would be the Form of order. No matter what field of study, what one tells themselves, or what new information we learn, it is always underlined by order. Even if we found a way to explain the universe in three equations, there would still be something more basic to them: order. Without order the universe as we know it could not exist, there could be no physical or logical laws. Despite beauty being perceived objectively, we can still understand what beauty is, no matter how different our subjective preferences are from one another (just like the millions of different pentagrams and triangles we can create).

The common question is why this theory should be accepted, and it is for the simple reason that it seems to be sound. Let’s look at the central argument.

1. The more objective a concept is, the more real the thing it represents.
2. The Forms are more objective than material objects.
3. Therefore, the Forms are more real than material objects.

In defense of this first sub-premise, it can be pointed out that the “objectivity” of something is precisely what we use to determine reality from appearance. The less straddled in subjective interpretation, the more objective it is, and the safer it is to call it truth.

Sub-premise two is the big one. Several problems are presented with using the physical world for objectivity. First, we only contact physical reality through subjective images. There is nothing about it that does not receive individual interpretation. Take geometry again (the simplest example). We can draw two triangles that look nearly identical, then argue over which one is more “perfect”. In the end if it has three points and three sides, they are both correct. This takes away from the subjectivity and helps us understand the nature of triangles. Second, things in the physical world contain many different, mixed properties. If we try to discuss these things as a whole, without separating out and addressing the individual properties, we cannot truly explain what the thing in itself is. Third, things in the physical world are in a constant state of change.

On the other hand, the world of Forms can provide us with more objective information. First, Forms are more objective than our perception of an object. You cannot debate what makes what we call a triangle a triangle. A better example is the modern, on-going debates on whether gods exist and have influence over the universe or not. Some people believe that the universe is designed, some believe it can come about just fine without a deity, and both sides miss the underlying point of it all: the Form of order exists, period. Likewise with emotions, different things can cause us pain, which we can even experience differently. Yet we understand pain in general, the Form of it, despite these theoretically infinite different manifestations of pain. Second, Forms explain why an object is the way it is, because it breaks it down to all the individual properties, which gives a more full picture. A triangle is not just any shape, it contains very specific properties from as specific as the number of points to as fundamental as relying on order. Third, Forms are unchanging.

If this is the case, Forms are indeed more objective than the material world and our experience of it. It’s also more practical as illustrated by the mathematical argument for Forms. Further, there are many fundamental questions it answers. For example: how is knowledge possible, how is it distinguished from belief, and how can things in a constant state of change be known? It tells us what things are real, if there is a mind-independent reality, and if anything permanent underlies the changing phenomenon we experience. It even goes so far as to help understand what general terms stand for, and what it is when “get” or “grasp” when we understand something.

Like a good philosopher, let’s look at the main critiques of the theory I have seen. First is the concern of “what are there Forms for?” For some reason it is thought that the Platonist will reject a Form of things like dirt or dampness. This is simply not the case, if something exists there is a Form for it. Second is the objections that Forms do seem to be changing and divisible. For example there are not just triangles, but also isosceles, scalene, and equilateral triangles. How can there be a Form of triangles when to be both isosceles and scalene are contradictory properties? Again it comes down to a misunderstanding. The Theory of Forms is simply hierarchal, the sub-Forms simply exist as lower manifestations of the main Form. Just because there can be varying characteristic of X does not mean X does not share any more basic characteristic. Finally there is the Third Man Argument, which says that there is an infinite regress of Forms. For example, if there is a Form of Largeness then all large things are smaller than largeness, meaning there needs to be a second Form of Largeness to contain both. There then needs to be another to contain all three, then another and so one. Once again it comes down to misunderstanding the Theory of Forms. It’s hierarchal, all “large” things simply partake in the Form of Largeness. There is no greater Form, and there is no need to be a greater Form.

So yes, taking ALL that into account I accept the theory of Forms. The second premise is that consciousness exists, which is something every self-conscious is inherently, axiomatically aware of. While we may not be able to truly prove the consciousness of others, it’s accepted that solipsism is generally impractical in these types of discussions. Besides this, we are aware of our OWN consciousness at the very least, which proves premise 2 is also true.

Premise 3 is simply a combination of the first two. If there is a Form of everything, and consciousness exists, it logically follows that a Form of consciousness exists.

Premise 4 discusses the nature of the Form of consciousness. Like all Forms it is transcendent, objective, pure, isolate, etc and so on. But it also contains all those characteristics that make things conscious. Just by our own self-awareness we can understand that this Form would include things like self-awareness, abstract thought, fantasy, preference, biases, …, things that we ourselves experience. Something relatable to humans like that, greater or not, is a main attribute of basically every god in history. Same with being transcendent, objective, and unending, separated from but related to and impacting the physical world. All of these things that would be inherent in a Form of consciousness, which we’ve shown must exist, fit the vast majority of definitions of God. This leads to the conclusion that God, in this very common, simple, traditional definition, must exist. Note that it need not be omni-anything, nor even be evidence of some sort of creator deity. But whatever it is, the logic suggests it exists.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's the longest begging the question I've seen yet. Or leading the witness towards a conclusion that they themselves are God.

Interesting about forms being more real than objects, objects come and go but the invisible lives on.

God, it is said, created the visible and invisible. Col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
That's the longest begging the question I've seen yet. Or leading the witness towards a conclusion that they themselves are God.

Interesting about forms being more real than objects, objects come and go but the invisible lives on.

God, it is said, created the visible and invisible. Col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

How did I suggest the person themselves is God? The Form of consciousness is God, not the individual.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How did I suggest the person themselves is God? The Form of consciousness is God, not the individual.
You say the only one we can be sure of having consciousness is ourselves, then suggest that God doesn't have to be a creator or anything like that. If we can only be sure of ourselves having consciousness, then we ourselves are consciousness, and the only form of consciousness.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
You say the only one we can be sure of having consciousness is ourselves, then suggest that God doesn't have to be a creator or anything like that. If we can only be sure of ourselves having consciousness then we ourselves are consciousness and the only form of consciousness.

I was simply addressing or inability to experience the consciousness of anyone else. I even stared solipsism is impractical in this type of discussion. It seems there all humans are conscious, along with many species of animals. It is only the Form of consciousness, which underlies all conscious things, that it God.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I was simply addressing or inability to experience the consciousness of anyone else. I even stared solipsism is impractical in this type of discussion. It seems there all humans are conscious, along with many species of animals. It is only the Form of consciousness, which underlies all conscious things, that it God.
It's the Orwellian trap that as far as we know everything only exists in our own mind. But if not that, also It doesn't fit your description of God. A Form of a triangle is not necessarily a triangle, itself. A Form of consciousness does not necessarily have consciousness, so it doesn't fit your description of a God, having consciousness and self awareness.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
The pure Source or Consciousness has no form, what we call forms arise from Consciousness, what we call God is just that, Consciousness, what we label this Consciousness is just our own ignorance of what truly Consciousness is, and because of our ignorance we make up all sorts of stories to try and to understand the Source, its like the shadow trying to explaining the Source of the shadow.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It's the Orwellian trap that as far as we know everything only exists in our own mind. But if not that, also It doesn't fit your description of God. A Form of a triangle is not necessarily a triangle, itself. A Form of consciousness does not necessarily have consciousness, so it doesn't fit your description of a God, having consciousness and self awareness.

Consciousness does not have the property of consciousness?

The pure Source or Consciousness has no form, what we call forms arise from Consciousness, what we call God is just that, Consciousness, what we label this Consciousness is just our own ignorance of what truly Consciousness is, and because of our ignorance we make up all sorts of stories to try and to understand the Source, its like the shadow trying to explaining the Source of the shadow.

Why?

I consider Consciousness/God/Brahman to have no form but instead to be the ground on which all forms are created.

How are you two defining "form?"
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Consciousness does not have the property of consciousness?





How are you two defining "form?"
Form is what arises from the Source, or Consciousness, its like the shadow of the reality of thew Source, its what we belive we are, when in fact we are not that, we are in truth, Consciousness.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Form is what arises from the Source, or Consciousness, its like the shadow of the reality of thew Source, its what we belive we are, when in fact we are not that, we are in truth, Consciousness.

I may be wrong, but you don't seem to be discussing Forms in the way of the OP.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
How are you two defining "form?"
Per Webster's dictionary"

Definition of form

  1. 1 a : the shape and structure of something as distinguished from its material
  2. b : a body (as of a person) especially in its external appearance or as distinguished from the face : figure
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
1. All things that exist must have a Form.
2. Consciousness exists.
3. So, there must be a Form of consciousness.
4. A transcendent, causal, eternal force that contains consciousness, self-awareness, and intent is the most basic definition of God.
5. Therefore, a God of this definition must exist.

I already know from experience that premise one is by far the most confusing and misunderstood step, so it will probably be the main focus of this writing. The basic idea behind Plato’s Theory of Forms is that there are two worlds: the physical world perceived empirically, and the ideal world perceived intellectually. This should not be thought of like substance dualism, as Forms are not substance, they are essence. If we take a shape, such as a pentagram, there are theoretically unlimited ways we could draw it. Different sizes, poorly measured lines, wrong angles, different colors, make it out of different material, etc and so on. Yet no matter what the differences, we can still recognize it as the shape of a pentagram, a five-pointed star formed by a continuous, five segmented line. Same with triangles as three sided, three pointed shapes. One of the main arguments for Forms is based on mathematics and geometry like this. Imagine if we tried to make every triangle absolutely perfect, it would take years to get even the simplest project finished. Yet we treat all the measurements as absolutely perfect, and it works.

Forms go far beyond geometry though, according to the theory there has to be a Form for everything. This is because like geometrical shapes, all other things are a collection of defining properties/characteristics. The most fundamental Forms (at least one of them) would be the Form of order. No matter what field of study, what one tells themselves, or what new information we learn, it is always underlined by order. Even if we found a way to explain the universe in three equations, there would still be something more basic to them: order. Without order the universe as we know it could not exist, there could be no physical or logical laws. Despite beauty being perceived objectively, we can still understand what beauty is, no matter how different our subjective preferences are from one another (just like the millions of different pentagrams and triangles we can create).

The common question is why this theory should be accepted, and it is for the simple reason that it seems to be sound. Let’s look at the central argument.

1. The more objective a concept is, the more real the thing it represents.
2. The Forms are more objective than material objects.
3. Therefore, the Forms are more real than material objects.

In defense of this first sub-premise, it can be pointed out that the “objectivity” of something is precisely what we use to determine reality from appearance. The less straddled in subjective interpretation, the more objective it is, and the safer it is to call it truth.

Sub-premise two is the big one. Several problems are presented with using the physical world for objectivity. First, we only contact physical reality through subjective images. There is nothing about it that does not receive individual interpretation. Take geometry again (the simplest example). We can draw two triangles that look nearly identical, then argue over which one is more “perfect”. In the end if it has three points and three sides, they are both correct. This takes away from the subjectivity and helps us understand the nature of triangles. Second, things in the physical world contain many different, mixed properties. If we try to discuss these things as a whole, without separating out and addressing the individual properties, we cannot truly explain what the thing in itself is. Third, things in the physical world are in a constant state of change.

On the other hand, the world of Forms can provide us with more objective information. First, Forms are more objective than our perception of an object. You cannot debate what makes what we call a triangle a triangle. A better example is the modern, on-going debates on whether gods exist and have influence over the universe or not. Some people believe that the universe is designed, some believe it can come about just fine without a deity, and both sides miss the underlying point of it all: the Form of order exists, period. Likewise with emotions, different things can cause us pain, which we can even experience differently. Yet we understand pain in general, the Form of it, despite these theoretically infinite different manifestations of pain. Second, Forms explain why an object is the way it is, because it breaks it down to all the individual properties, which gives a more full picture. A triangle is not just any shape, it contains very specific properties from as specific as the number of points to as fundamental as relying on order. Third, Forms are unchanging.

If this is the case, Forms are indeed more objective than the material world and our experience of it. It’s also more practical as illustrated by the mathematical argument for Forms. Further, there are many fundamental questions it answers. For example: how is knowledge possible, how is it distinguished from belief, and how can things in a constant state of change be known? It tells us what things are real, if there is a mind-independent reality, and if anything permanent underlies the changing phenomenon we experience. It even goes so far as to help understand what general terms stand for, and what it is when “get” or “grasp” when we understand something.

Like a good philosopher, let’s look at the main critiques of the theory I have seen. First is the concern of “what are there Forms for?” For some reason it is thought that the Platonist will reject a Form of things like dirt or dampness. This is simply not the case, if something exists there is a Form for it. Second is the objections that Forms do seem to be changing and divisible. For example there are not just triangles, but also isosceles, scalene, and equilateral triangles. How can there be a Form of triangles when to be both isosceles and scalene are contradictory properties? Again it comes down to a misunderstanding. The Theory of Forms is simply hierarchal, the sub-Forms simply exist as lower manifestations of the main Form. Just because there can be varying characteristic of X does not mean X does not share any more basic characteristic. Finally there is the Third Man Argument, which says that there is an infinite regress of Forms. For example, if there is a Form of Largeness then all large things are smaller than largeness, meaning there needs to be a second Form of Largeness to contain both. There then needs to be another to contain all three, then another and so one. Once again it comes down to misunderstanding the Theory of Forms. It’s hierarchal, all “large” things simply partake in the Form of Largeness. There is no greater Form, and there is no need to be a greater Form.

So yes, taking ALL that into account I accept the theory of Forms. The second premise is that consciousness exists, which is something every self-conscious is inherently, axiomatically aware of. While we may not be able to truly prove the consciousness of others, it’s accepted that solipsism is generally impractical in these types of discussions. Besides this, we are aware of our OWN consciousness at the very least, which proves premise 2 is also true.

Premise 3 is simply a combination of the first two. If there is a Form of everything, and consciousness exists, it logically follows that a Form of consciousness exists.

Premise 4 discusses the nature of the Form of consciousness. Like all Forms it is transcendent, objective, pure, isolate, etc and so on. But it also contains all those characteristics that make things conscious. Just by our own self-awareness we can understand that this Form would include things like self-awareness, abstract thought, fantasy, preference, biases, …, things that we ourselves experience. Something relatable to humans like that, greater or not, is a main attribute of basically every god in history. Same with being transcendent, objective, and unending, separated from but related to and impacting the physical world. All of these things that would be inherent in a Form of consciousness, which we’ve shown must exist, fit the vast majority of definitions of God. This leads to the conclusion that God, in this very common, simple, traditional definition, must exist. Note that it need not be omni-anything, nor even be evidence of some sort of creator deity. But whatever it is, the logic suggests it exists.
What one understands from Platonism. Please
Religion existed before Plato. Religion needs no Platonism necessarily. Truthful Religion gives its own reasonable arguments. Please
Regards
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Per Webster's dictionary"

Definition of form

  1. 1 a : the shape and structure of something as distinguished from its material
  2. b : a body (as of a person) especially in its external appearance or as distinguished from the face : figure

Yeah that's not what we're talking about.
 

Onyx

Active Member
Premium Member
Please explain what you mean by 'form' then.
Theory of Forms - Wikipedia

For example, one might believe there is a Form of a perfect circle, against which all other circles are measured. Over time, it becomes less mysterious as we learn the mathematics behind it, and develop tools to draw or otherwise create "better" circles. But the perfect circle can only exist in the transcendental mode of a Form.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Theory of Forms - Wikipedia

For example, one might believe there is a Form of a perfect circle, against which all other circles are measured. Over time, it becomes less mysterious as we learn the mathematics behind it, and develop tools to draw or otherwise create "better" circles. But the perfect circle can only exist in the transcendental mode of a Form.
OK. But my original point still seems to hold. Consciousness/God/Brahman has no form but is the ground/basis on which forms exist.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
1. All things that exist must have a Form.
2. Consciousness exists.
3. So, there must be a Form of consciousness.
4. A transcendent, causal, eternal force that contains consciousness, self-awareness, and intent is the most basic definition of God.
5. Therefore, a God of this definition must exist.

I already know from experience that premise one is by far the most confusing and misunderstood step, so it will probably be the main focus of this writing. The basic idea behind Plato’s Theory of Forms is that there are two worlds: the physical world perceived empirically, and the ideal world perceived intellectually. This should not be thought of like substance dualism, as Forms are not substance, they are essence. If we take a shape, such as a pentagram, there are theoretically unlimited ways we could draw it. Different sizes, poorly measured lines, wrong angles, different colors, make it out of different material, etc and so on. Yet no matter what the differences, we can still recognize it as the shape of a pentagram, a five-pointed star formed by a continuous, five segmented line. Same with triangles as three sided, three pointed shapes. One of the main arguments for Forms is based on mathematics and geometry like this. Imagine if we tried to make every triangle absolutely perfect, it would take years to get even the simplest project finished. Yet we treat all the measurements as absolutely perfect, and it works.

Forms go far beyond geometry though, according to the theory there has to be a Form for everything. This is because like geometrical shapes, all other things are a collection of defining properties/characteristics. The most fundamental Forms (at least one of them) would be the Form of order. No matter what field of study, what one tells themselves, or what new information we learn, it is always underlined by order. Even if we found a way to explain the universe in three equations, there would still be something more basic to them: order. Without order the universe as we know it could not exist, there could be no physical or logical laws. Despite beauty being perceived objectively, we can still understand what beauty is, no matter how different our subjective preferences are from one another (just like the millions of different pentagrams and triangles we can create).

The common question is why this theory should be accepted, and it is for the simple reason that it seems to be sound. Let’s look at the central argument.

1. The more objective a concept is, the more real the thing it represents.
2. The Forms are more objective than material objects.
3. Therefore, the Forms are more real than material objects.

In defense of this first sub-premise, it can be pointed out that the “objectivity” of something is precisely what we use to determine reality from appearance. The less straddled in subjective interpretation, the more objective it is, and the safer it is to call it truth.

Sub-premise two is the big one. Several problems are presented with using the physical world for objectivity. First, we only contact physical reality through subjective images. There is nothing about it that does not receive individual interpretation. Take geometry again (the simplest example). We can draw two triangles that look nearly identical, then argue over which one is more “perfect”. In the end if it has three points and three sides, they are both correct. This takes away from the subjectivity and helps us understand the nature of triangles. Second, things in the physical world contain many different, mixed properties. If we try to discuss these things as a whole, without separating out and addressing the individual properties, we cannot truly explain what the thing in itself is. Third, things in the physical world are in a constant state of change.

On the other hand, the world of Forms can provide us with more objective information. First, Forms are more objective than our perception of an object. You cannot debate what makes what we call a triangle a triangle. A better example is the modern, on-going debates on whether gods exist and have influence over the universe or not. Some people believe that the universe is designed, some believe it can come about just fine without a deity, and both sides miss the underlying point of it all: the Form of order exists, period. Likewise with emotions, different things can cause us pain, which we can even experience differently. Yet we understand pain in general, the Form of it, despite these theoretically infinite different manifestations of pain. Second, Forms explain why an object is the way it is, because it breaks it down to all the individual properties, which gives a more full picture. A triangle is not just any shape, it contains very specific properties from as specific as the number of points to as fundamental as relying on order. Third, Forms are unchanging.

If this is the case, Forms are indeed more objective than the material world and our experience of it. It’s also more practical as illustrated by the mathematical argument for Forms. Further, there are many fundamental questions it answers. For example: how is knowledge possible, how is it distinguished from belief, and how can things in a constant state of change be known? It tells us what things are real, if there is a mind-independent reality, and if anything permanent underlies the changing phenomenon we experience. It even goes so far as to help understand what general terms stand for, and what it is when “get” or “grasp” when we understand something.

Like a good philosopher, let’s look at the main critiques of the theory I have seen. First is the concern of “what are there Forms for?” For some reason it is thought that the Platonist will reject a Form of things like dirt or dampness. This is simply not the case, if something exists there is a Form for it. Second is the objections that Forms do seem to be changing and divisible. For example there are not just triangles, but also isosceles, scalene, and equilateral triangles. How can there be a Form of triangles when to be both isosceles and scalene are contradictory properties? Again it comes down to a misunderstanding. The Theory of Forms is simply hierarchal, the sub-Forms simply exist as lower manifestations of the main Form. Just because there can be varying characteristic of X does not mean X does not share any more basic characteristic. Finally there is the Third Man Argument, which says that there is an infinite regress of Forms. For example, if there is a Form of Largeness then all large things are smaller than largeness, meaning there needs to be a second Form of Largeness to contain both. There then needs to be another to contain all three, then another and so one. Once again it comes down to misunderstanding the Theory of Forms. It’s hierarchal, all “large” things simply partake in the Form of Largeness. There is no greater Form, and there is no need to be a greater Form.

So yes, taking ALL that into account I accept the theory of Forms. The second premise is that consciousness exists, which is something every self-conscious is inherently, axiomatically aware of. While we may not be able to truly prove the consciousness of others, it’s accepted that solipsism is generally impractical in these types of discussions. Besides this, we are aware of our OWN consciousness at the very least, which proves premise 2 is also true.

Premise 3 is simply a combination of the first two. If there is a Form of everything, and consciousness exists, it logically follows that a Form of consciousness exists.

Premise 4 discusses the nature of the Form of consciousness. Like all Forms it is transcendent, objective, pure, isolate, etc and so on. But it also contains all those characteristics that make things conscious. Just by our own self-awareness we can understand that this Form would include things like self-awareness, abstract thought, fantasy, preference, biases, …, things that we ourselves experience. Something relatable to humans like that, greater or not, is a main attribute of basically every god in history. Same with being transcendent, objective, and unending, separated from but related to and impacting the physical world. All of these things that would be inherent in a Form of consciousness, which we’ve shown must exist, fit the vast majority of definitions of God. This leads to the conclusion that God, in this very common, simple, traditional definition, must exist. Note that it need not be omni-anything, nor even be evidence of some sort of creator deity. But whatever it is, the logic suggests it exists.

This is the mother of all non sequiturs. Even if we grant the first threee premises.

If everything that exists has a form, that does not entail that everything that has a form (in its definition or not) exists.

Ciao

- viole
 
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