Arguing with God -- "Come now, let us reason together."

[IndigoChild5559]

"Come now, let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18 This is what God says to us.

Let us consider the following:

1. Abraham argues with God over the destruction of Sodom, bargaining him down to saving the city if just ten righteous exist.
2. Jacob wrestles with God via an angel to get a blessing and is renamed Israel -- "contends with God."
3. Moses argues with God not to destroy the People of Israel over the worship of the Golden Calf and to instead remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In all three cases, these men are successful in their arguments with God.

What does this tell you about what God allows, perhaps even encourages??? Not convinced yet? Let's look in greater detail.

It is said that Noah walked with God. What was Noah like? Did he plea for the people of the earth that they should similarly be saved? No. He had no compassion for others, even though he was "righteous in his day."

Not so with Abraham. Abraham had compassion for those who had strayed, perhaps because he himself had strayed on occasion. He literally begged God to not destroy Sodom, and gradually wore God down from 50 to a mere 10 righteous men being worth saving the city for. And does its say that Abraham walked with God? NO! God says to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless."

So Noah only walks beside God, while Abraham walks in front of God. The difference is that Noah accepted God's punishment, while Abraham argued with it, out of compassion.

That should make things crystal clear, does it not?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

"Come now, let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18 This is what God says to us.

Let us consider the following:

1. Abraham argues with God over the destruction of Sodom, bargaining him down to saving the city if just ten righteous exist.
2. Jacob wrestles with God via an angel to get a blessing and is renamed Israel -- "contends with God."
3. Moses argues with God not to destroy the People of Israel over the worship of the Golden Calf and to instead remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In all three cases, these men are successful in their arguments with God.

What does this tell you about what God allows, perhaps even encourages??? Not convinced yet? Let's look in greater detail.

It is said that Noah walked with God. What was Noah like? Did he plea for the people of the earth that they should similarly be saved? No. He had no compassion for others, even though he was "righteous in his day."

Not so with Abraham. Abraham had compassion for those who had strayed, perhaps because he himself had strayed on occasion. He literally begged God to not destroy Sodom, and gradually wore God down from 50 to a mere 10 righteous men being worth saving the city for. And does its say that Abraham walked with God? NO! God says to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless."

So Noah only walks beside God, while Abraham walks in front of God. The difference is that Noah accepted God's punishment, while Abraham argued with it, out of compassion.

That should make things crystal clear, does it not?

Interesting post!
Keep in mind, Abraham was not wanting to save the wicked...only the righteous. And righteousness, in Scripture, is adherence to God’s standards, no one else’s.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"Come now, let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18 This is what God says to us.

Let us consider the following:

1. Abraham argues with God over the destruction of Sodom, bargaining him down to saving the city if just ten righteous exist.
2. Jacob wrestles with God via an angel to get a blessing and is renamed Israel -- "contends with God."
3. Moses argues with God not to destroy the People of Israel over the worship of the Golden Calf and to instead remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In all three cases, these men are successful in their arguments with God.

What does this tell you about what God allows, perhaps even encourages??? Not convinced yet? Let's look in greater detail.

It is said that Noah walked with God. What was Noah like? Did he plea for the people of the earth that they should similarly be saved? No. He had no compassion for others, even though he was "righteous in his day."

Not so with Abraham. Abraham had compassion for those who had strayed, perhaps because he himself had strayed on occasion. He literally begged God to not destroy Sodom, and gradually wore God down from 50 to a mere 10 righteous men being worth saving the city for. And does its say that Abraham walked with God? NO! God says to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless."

So Noah only walks beside God, while Abraham walks in front of God. The difference is that Noah accepted God's punishment, while Abraham argued with it, out of compassion.

That should make things crystal clear, does it not?

The accounts of Noah and Abraham are not detailed and interspersed with mythology. It would be difficult to have a clear historical perspective of either man. Regardless its good to question what our sacred scriptures really say and not always accept literal interpretation.

 

[Rival]

Of course you can argue with HaShem! I had a good go before mom moved to Normandy.

Turns out I was wrong and it was for the best after all.

 

[Brickjectivity]

"Come now, let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18 This is what God says to us.

Let us consider the following:

1. Abraham argues with God over the destruction of Sodom, bargaining him down to saving the city if just ten righteous exist.
2. Jacob wrestles with God via an angel to get a blessing and is renamed Israel -- "contends with God."
3. Moses argues with God not to destroy the People of Israel over the worship of the Golden Calf and to instead remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In all three cases, these men are successful in their arguments with God.

What does this tell you about what God allows, perhaps even encourages??? Not convinced yet? Let's look in greater detail.

It is said that Noah walked with God. What was Noah like? Did he plea for the people of the earth that they should similarly be saved? No. He had no compassion for others, even though he was "righteous in his day."

Not so with Abraham. Abraham had compassion for those who had strayed, perhaps because he himself had strayed on occasion. He literally begged God to not destroy Sodom, and gradually wore God down from 50 to a mere 10 righteous men being worth saving the city for. And does its say that Abraham walked with God? NO! God says to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless."

So Noah only walks beside God, while Abraham walks in front of God. The difference is that Noah accepted God's punishment, while Abraham argued with it, out of compassion.

That should make things crystal clear, does it not?

I like your post. Why in your opinion is Job in the canon? In this poem, Job is a righteous man who suffers merely so a point can be made, not through anything he has done wrong. He is a compassionate man like Abraham. He argues or tries, and he is ignored. At the end of the story he's told that he just has so little knowledge that there is no point in him arguing.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Another question I have. Abraham argues for some people to be spared. What if Abraham argues that they are actually not doing anything wrong? Can he do that?

 

[Stevicus]

That should make things crystal clear, does it not?

Not really, no. Not for a God that supposedly loves humans, has a plan for humans, knows what is inside every human's heart and mind, sees all, hears all, knows all. This implies that God already knew that He was going to flood the Earth even before Noah existed (and even before Adam and Eve existed).

If God knew that His creation wasn't going to turn out well and that He'd have to flood the Earth and kill almost all of humanity, then why wouldn't He have anticipated this, and why couldn't He have gotten it right the first time?

Same for the destruction of Sodom. God already knew how the city was going to turn out before it was even built, and He probably knew the exact number of existing righteous people at any given time. And, since He already knew what was in Abraham's heart and knew every single argument Abraham might give (even before Abraham was even born), then why go through such a ridiculous charade in the first place?

Moreover, if humanity was turning out bad that God felt the need to wipe out most humans from existence, why wouldn't He have realized that it was due to his own design flaw and...correct the design?

He's the kind of boss who blames His subordinates for His own mistakes, and rather than own up to it and admit it, He just wants to play more games. That's the only thing that's made "crystal clear" here.

 

[leov]

"Come now, let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18 This is what God says to us.

Let us consider the following:

1. Abraham argues with God over the destruction of Sodom, bargaining him down to saving the city if just ten righteous exist.
2. Jacob wrestles with God via an angel to get a blessing and is renamed Israel -- "contends with God."
3. Moses argues with God not to destroy the People of Israel over the worship of the Golden Calf and to instead remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In all three cases, these men are successful in their arguments with God.

What does this tell you about what God allows, perhaps even encourages??? Not convinced yet? Let's look in greater detail.

It is said that Noah walked with God. What was Noah like? Did he plea for the people of the earth that they should similarly be saved? No. He had no compassion for others, even though he was "righteous in his day."

Not so with Abraham. Abraham had compassion for those who had strayed, perhaps because he himself had strayed on occasion. He literally begged God to not destroy Sodom, and gradually wore God down from 50 to a mere 10 righteous men being worth saving the city for. And does its say that Abraham walked with God? NO! God says to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless."

So Noah only walks beside God, while Abraham walks in front of God. The difference is that Noah accepted God's punishment, while Abraham argued with it, out of compassion.

That should make things crystal clear, does it not?

Noah , Torah says, was genealogically correct:
Genesis 6:9 Lexicon: These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.. Implication is " that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" was not a correctable issue due to genetic mix. In case of Abraham: Abraham had what God desired him to have - compassion, mercy.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"Come now, let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18 This is what God says to us.

Let us consider the following:

1. Abraham argues with God over the destruction of Sodom, bargaining him down to saving the city if just ten righteous exist.
2. Jacob wrestles with God via an angel to get a blessing and is renamed Israel -- "contends with God."
3. Moses argues with God not to destroy the People of Israel over the worship of the Golden Calf and to instead remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In all three cases, these men are successful in their arguments with God.

Oy vey! Torah does not say that "Jacob wrestles with God via an angel [in order] to get a blessing,"

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The accounts of Noah and Abraham are not detailed and interspersed with mythology. It would be difficult to have a clear historical perspective of either man. Regardless its good to question what our sacred scriptures really say and not always accept literal interpretation.

What I've written does not depend upon the text being literally historic.

Shalom

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I like your post. Why in your opinion is Job in the canon? In this poem, Job is a righteous man who suffers merely so a point can be made, not through anything he has done wrong. He is a compassionate man like Abraham. He argues or tries, and he is ignored. At the end of the story he's told that he just has so little knowledge that there is no point in him arguing.

There is something I like to call THE question: why do good people suffer??? No philosophy or religion has an answer to this question, and it is troublesome. Very few people get through life without at some point wrestling with this question on some level.

This is the question at the heart of the book of Job. The prevailing opinion at the time Job was written was that suffering was punishment for sin. Yet the book (quite possibly a morality play) makes it very clear that Job was not guilty of sin.


Superficially it appears that God allows Job too be punished by HaSatan in order to win a shallow bet. But this just begs the question. Why does Hashem make the bet in the first place?

If ever the was a person to whom God would answer the question, "Why have you made me suffer, when I have done no wrong," it would have been Job. Yet God never gives him a reason. NEVER.

God does something else instead. God appears t Job. IOW, instead of getting the answer, Job gets the Answerer. And let's think about that. If you were a child hurting, would you rather have your Father tell you why you are in pain, or would you rather have your Father take you in his arms and kiss the pain?

What Job gets is the reassurance that God is there, and is in charge. Someone is running things -- there is a rhyme and reason out there. From this Job can deduct that there IS a reason, although he doesn't know what it is--BUT knowing God, he can know that the reason is good. So.... getting the Answerer instead of the Answer is the better of the two possibilities.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not really, no. Not for a God that supposedly loves humans, has a plan for humans, knows what is inside every human's heart and mind, sees all, hears all, knows all. This implies that God already knew that He was going to flood the Earth even before Noah existed (and even before Adam and Eve existed).

If God knew that His creation wasn't going to turn out well and that He'd have to flood the Earth and kill almost all of humanity, then why wouldn't He have anticipated this, and why couldn't He have gotten it right the first time?

Same for the destruction of Sodom. God already knew how the city was going to turn out before it was even built, and He probably knew the exact number of existing righteous people at any given time. And, since He already knew what was in Abraham's heart and knew every single argument Abraham might give (even before Abraham was even born), then why go through such a ridiculous charade in the first place?

Moreover, if humanity was turning out bad that God felt the need to wipe out most humans from existence, why wouldn't He have realized that it was due to his own design flaw and...correct the design?

He's the kind of boss who blames His subordinates for His own mistakes, and rather than own up to it and admit it, He just wants to play more games. That's the only thing that's made "crystal clear" here.

What it makes clear is that some of what God does is a challenge to us to step up and reason with him. This is not a "game," so much as a form of interactive parenting.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Noah , Torah says, was genealogically correct:
Genesis 6:9 Lexicon: These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.. Implication is " that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" was not a correctable issue due to genetic mix. In case of Abraham: Abraham had what God desired him to have - compassion, mercy.

This doesn't insinuate anything about any sort of genetic impurity.There is no such thing as genetic impurity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Oy vey! Torah does not say that "Jacob wrestles with God via an angel [in order] to get a blessing,"

Why do you think Jacob wrestled with God?

 

[Dawnofhope]

What I've written does not depend upon the text being literally historic.

Shalom

Cool. Your post reminds me a little of the comparison between the two Adams in Genesis and the famous essay lonely man of faith by Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik.

The Lonely Man of Faith - Wikipedia

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Let us consider the following:

1. Abraham argues with God over the destruction of Sodom, bargaining him down to saving the city if just ten righteous exist.
2. Jacob wrestles with God via an angel to get a blessing and is renamed Israel -- "contends with God."
3. Moses argues with God not to destroy the People of Israel over the worship of the Golden Calf and to instead remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In all three cases, these men are successful in their arguments with God.

Oy vey! Torah does not say that "Jacob wrestles with God via an angel [in order] to get a blessing,"

Why do you think Jacob wrestled with God?

I think the question is both broken and disingenuous. Please read the text ,,,

... now, assuming that you did so: Why do you think the 'man' wrestled with Jacob?​

 

[Stevicus]

What it makes clear is that some of what God does is a challenge to us to step up and reason with him. This is not a "game," so much as a form of interactive parenting.

I'm sure there are plenty of those who would be willing to accept the challenge and step up and reason with God, if such a being even exists. I'm sure there are those who would just love the opportunity to have a sincere, face-to-face conversation with the Almighty.

So, if you're saying that God wants us to reason with Him, then I'm down for that. Where is He? I'm ready to accept the challenge now. Send Him my way.

 

[leov]

This doesn't insinuate anything about any sort of genetic impurity.There is no such thing as genetic impurity.

It says Noah and Abraham had 'clean' genetic line which listed in Genesis.
Strong's Hebrew: 8435. תּוֹלְדוֹת (toledoth) -- generations 'clean' pedigree., looks almost like a scientific experiment.

 

[dybmh]

It says Noah and Abraham had 'clean' genetic line which listed in Genesis.
Strong's Hebrew: 8435. תּוֹלְדוֹת (toledoth) -- generations 'clean' pedigree., looks almost like a scientific experiment.

The source provided does not include 'clean'.

 

[Muffled]

Of course you can argue with HaShem! I had a good go before mom moved to Normandy.

Turns out I was wrong and it was for the best after all.

I believe He is much more intelligent than we are and we end up seeing things His way in the end if we are reasonable.