• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are you singing a 'new song'?

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Psalm 96:1. 'O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth'.

It sounds to me as if God would have everyone sing a 'new song'. What do you understand the 'new song' to be? And was there an 'old' song?

In Exodus 15:1,2. it says, 'Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him'.

Was the song of Moses the old song, or the new song?

In Isaiah 42:10 (KJV) the prophet writes, 'Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.'

It also seems to me that a new song comes from a new heart and new spirit [Ezekiel 11:19; 18:31; 36:26]. Does this mean that the new song cannot be sung until the new heavens and earth appear, or is the new song to be sung under a new covenant within the present heaven and earth [Jeremiah 31:31-34]?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I think you are taking the word "new" too literally. The Hebrew word "chadash" (and its feminine form, chadasha) does not only mean "new". It also means "repaired" or "renewed". It also refers to the way something is done even if it isn't the first time -- that is, the requirement to approach/treat something as new in our attitude even if it is something we see often. This way, nothing becomes routine.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
88 is an example of a Psalm which tells you what tune to use, unlike 96. This may mean that the psalm 96 is to be sung to various tunes or to new ones each time. But what does it have to do with the meaning of the psalm?

Unlike some 96 provides no memo about which tune to use, so how is it performed? Maybe it is chanted, but maybe the idea here is that we always use a new melody for it every time we sing it. Its probably a celebration of renewal of all the things in the song which happen over and over. Its about faithfulness and starting over and not giving up and things like that. There is no set tune, because every day is a new day. Even though every day is a new day it is still the same world. The lord's works are permanent, and so we are singing not about transient things such as houses and money. We have phrases like "Let the fields be jubilant" by which we know that this song is about us. We are the fields, the trees, possibly the heavens, too. We are the creation in the psalm and not this ground we stand upon or the physical, and psalm is telling us (not plants) to be jubilant because we are a permanent creation.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I think you are taking the word "new" too literally. The Hebrew word "chadash" (and its feminine form, chadasha) does not only mean "new". It also means "repaired" or "renewed". It also refers to the way something is done even if it isn't the first time -- that is, the requirement to approach/treat something as new in our attitude even if it is something we see often. This way, nothing becomes routine.
According to Jeremiah 31:32 the new (or 'renewed') covenant is not like the covenant made 'with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of Egypt;'. But, 'after those days, saith the LORD, 'I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts'.

Does this mean that the law is not presently written on the heart of a Torah Jew? To what does 'those days' refer?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
88 is an example of a Psalm which tells you what tune to use, unlike 96. This may mean that the psalm 96 is to be sung to various tunes or to new ones each time. But what does it have to do with the meaning of the psalm?

Unlike some 96 provides no memo about which tune to use, so how is it performed? Maybe it is chanted, but maybe the idea here is that we always use a new melody for it every time we sing it. Its probably a celebration of renewal of all the things in the song which happen over and over. Its about faithfulness and starting over and not giving up and things like that. There is no set tune, because every day is a new day. Even though every day is a new day it is still the same world. The lord's works are permanent, and so we are singing not about transient things such as houses and money. We have phrases like "Let the fields be jubilant" by which we know that this song is about us. We are the fields, the trees, possibly the heavens, too. We are the creation in the psalm and not this ground we stand upon or the physical, and psalm is telling us (not plants) to be jubilant because we are a permanent creation.
I understand that when the life of God departs from creation, then creation itself no longer has permanence. When the new heaven and earth appears, will the old heaven and earth not have gone?
 
Last edited:

rosends

Well-Known Member
According to Jeremiah 31:32 the new (or 'renewed') covenant is not like the covenant made 'with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of Egypt;'. But, 'after those days, saith the LORD, 'I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts'.

Does this mean that the law is not presently written on the heart of a Torah Jew? To what does 'those days' refer?
The renewed covenant has the same content (the Torah, according to verse 33) but it will be placed directly into the people's hearts so it won't have to be taught -- it will simply be known. The change will be in the people, not the content. In those days (let's assume we're talking about a future messianic era) the people will not break the covenant because it will be intrinsic to their nature as opposed to now, when people rebel against what they are (externally) taught.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The renewed covenant has the same content (the Torah, according to verse 33) but it will be placed directly into the people's hearts so it won't have to be taught -- it will simply be known. The change will be in the people, not the content. In those days (let's assume we're talking about a future messianic era) the people will not break the covenant because it will be intrinsic to their nature as opposed to now, when people rebel against what they are (externally) taught.
I agree. The Torah (moral, as opposed to ritualistic) does not change, but the heart of man is open to change. According to Jeremiah 18:9, the heart of man is wicked: 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?'

From a personal perspective, the only one that truly knows my heart is the Spirit of God. I believe He searches me as no man is able.

I conclude that for a wicked heart to be changed, there must be a spiritual transformation and renewal. Can another man, or other men, bring about a wicked man's spiritual transformation, or is God the only Saviour from the wickedness of our hearts?

I like what Job says in Job 42:1-6!
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I understand that when the life of God departs from creation, then creation itself no longer has permanence. When the new heaven and earth appear, will the old heaven and earth not have gone?
'Creation' and 'world' in this song refers to the singers (whoever is singing it) I think, so by calling the world permanent the psalmist is talking about that: [Pro 24:16 NIV] 16 "for though the righteous fall seven times, they rise again, but the wicked stumble when calamity strikes."
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I agree. The Torah (moral, as opposed to ritualistic) does not change, but the heart of man is open to change.
The verse in Jeremiah says nothing about dividing the Torah into categories. It simply invokes the entirety of the Torah.
I conclude that for a wicked heart to be changed, there must be a spiritual transformation and renewal. Can another man, or other men, bring about a wicked man's spiritual transformation, or is God the only Saviour from the wickedness of our hearts?
God is the only savior. Note that first person pronouns usage in Jer 31
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The renewed covenant has the same content (the Torah, according to verse 33) but it will be placed directly into the people's hearts so it won't have to be taught -- it will simply be known. The change will be in the people, not the content. In those days (let's assume we're talking about a future messianic era) the people will not break the covenant because it will be intrinsic to their nature as opposed to now, when people rebel against what they are (externally) taught.

All major religions have this idea - that there will be a true New Age/New Humanity/New Creation/Sat Yuga/God made world.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The verse in Jeremiah says nothing about dividing the Torah into categories. It simply invokes the entirety of the Torah.

God is the only savior. Note that first person pronouns usage in Jer 31
We don't have to divide the Torah into categories, but we do have to take notice of what it means to place the Torah directly into a man's heart. This necessarily excludes activities and rituals, allowing the focus to turn to motivation and spiritual impulse.

To my understanding, placing the Torah in the heart of man makes the love of God the overriding spiritual motivation. This is the love that is shed forth by God, and it serves God (as it says in the Shema).
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
We don't have to divide the Torah into categories, but we do have to take notice of what it means to place the Torah directly into a man's heart. This necessarily excludes activities and rituals, allowing the focus to turn to motivation and spiritual impulse.
Not at all. Obeying laws and following obligations are also placed in the heart which means that performing rituals, and doing what God expects of us are going to be automatic as well. Activities and rituals are subject to laws. They are part of the Torah and the covenant and there is no getting around that.
To my understanding, placing the Torah in the heart of man makes the love of God the overriding spiritual motivation. This is the love that is shed forth by God, and it serves God (as it says in the Shema).
To my understanding, placing the Torah in the heart of man makes being everything God wants the overriding motivation which includes loving God and fearing him (Deut 10:12), and to keep all the commandments (10:13).
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Not at all. Obeying laws and following obligations are also placed in the heart which means that performing rituals, and doing what God expects of us are going to be automatic as well. Activities and rituals are subject to laws. They are part of the Torah and the covenant and there is no getting around that.

To my understanding, placing the Torah in the heart of man makes being everything God wants the overriding motivation which includes loving God and fearing him (Deut 10:12), and to keep all the commandments (10:13).
From my reading of scripture, the heart is not the same as the mind. The spirit and the heart are intimately connected, but the mind learns from the heart. This makes the heart the source of spiritual motivation, and therefore the desire to do what the Torah contains. But the heart does not learn 316 laws; it expresses the Spirit that loves God and his neighbour, thereby fulfilling the spirit of the law.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
From my reading of scripture, the heart is not the same as the mind. The spirit and the heart are intimately connected, but the mind learns from the heart. This makes the heart the source of spiritual motivation, and therefore the desire to do what the Torah contains. But the heart does not learn 316 laws; it expresses the Spirit that loves God and his neighbour, thereby fulfilling the spirit of the law.
From a close reading of scripture it is clear that the heart can know, making it the source of logical and rational motivation as well. The heart therefore can learn all the laws and express the choice of obedience through behavior and performance. Deut 8:5-6.

But knowledge is unconnected to the heart textually, and is simply knowing and understanding intellectually (compare Deut 9:3 and 4-6 to see the distinction -- the heart might mislead us though the intellect tells us otherwise in terms of connecting to God).
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
It sounds to me as if God would have everyone sing a 'new song'. What do you understand the 'new song' to be? And was there an 'old' song?
The 'Old Song' & 'New Song' is related in Revelation 15:3; the Old Song of Moses was Exodus 15:2, that 'the Lord would become our Salvation (Yeshua - H3444).

Thus the Lord of Creation (Yahavah) became the Lord who Saves (Yehoshua).

Then the New Song of the Lamb is based on the New Name of Christ (Revelation 3:12, Revelation 19:12)...

Where the New Jerusalem has the name of the Messiah, which is 'our Divine Being Zion' (ציון) (Isaiah 52:7, Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12).

The word Lamb in Revelation in my understanding is a plural diminutive i.e the Flock of Israel; where the Flock in Ancient Hebrew was pronounced Zan (צאן), modern Hebrew is pronounced Tson.

Zan was the name of the Creator in many cultures, and was the name of Zeus; in the Nicene Church fathers, the Greeks understood that Jupiter, YHVH, and Zeus were all the same Creator Divine Being...

People have turned that Divine Being (Eloh - H433) into God (EL - H410), when above it in each theological structuring is the Source of reality i.e. the God Most High.
The Cretans have a tomb of Jupiter, with this inscription. “Here lieth Zan, whom they call Jove.” - Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. XIII

Zan was unquestionably the Chaldean appellation for the sun. Even the Greeks, who mutilated every Oriental name, had retained the right one in this case, as the Cretan inscription on the tomb of Zeus (Ode megas keitai Zan.—"Cyril contra Julian." (Here lies great Jove.)) significantly showed. As to the rest, the Zan, or Zaun, was, with the Sidonians, no uncommon prefix to On. Adonis was but another name for Zanonas, whose worship in Sidon Hesychius records. - Zanoni by Edward Bulwer Lytton
Thus those who know the New Song & Old Song, are those who've recognized the Messiah as the Creator, who will be brought into the Age to Come, and respect above the Creator is God Almighty - who is the Source of reality.
Psalm 96:1, Isaiah 42:10
In these verses the New Song is sung by those accepting the Creator as King over all the earth/universe; personally I'd prefer people do that before Armageddon, and Judgement Day.
It also seems to me that a new song comes from a new heart and new spirit [Ezekiel 11:19; 18:31; 36:26]. Does this mean that the new song cannot be sung until the new heavens and earth appear, or is the new song to be sung under a new covenant within the present heaven and earth [Jeremiah 31:31-34]?
In these verses we can see the Lord places a correction into people from the sky, through something flowing; I do believe it is possible to educate people via the internet, to accept the Messianic prophecies...

I'd prefer the first option or the Source of reality showed me at 15 years old, as the Great Battle takes place, God will cleanse this reality at a quantum level, and keep those who accept both the New Song of the Lamb, and the Old Song of Moses.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The 'Old Song' & 'New Song' is related in Revelation 15:3; the Old Song of Moses was Exodus 15:2, that 'the Lord would become our Salvation (Yeshua - H3444).

Thus the Lord of Creation (Yahavah) became the Lord who Saves (Yehoshua).

Then the New Song of the Lamb is based on the New Name of Christ (Revelation 3:12, Revelation 19:12)...

Where the New Jerusalem has the name of the Messiah, which is 'our Divine Being Zion' (ציון) (Isaiah 52:7, Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12).

The word Lamb in Revelation in my understanding is a plural diminutive i.e the Flock of Israel; where the Flock in Ancient Hebrew was pronounced Zan (צאן), modern Hebrew is pronounced Tson.

Zan was the name of the Creator in many cultures, and was the name of Zeus; in the Nicene Church fathers, the Greeks understood that Jupiter, YHVH, and Zeus were all the same Creator Divine Being...

People have turned that Divine Being (Eloh - H433) into God (EL - H410), when above it in each theological structuring is the Source of reality i.e. the God Most High.

Thus those who know the New Song & Old Song, are those who've recognized the Messiah as the Creator, who will be brought into the Age to Come, and respect above the Creator is God Almighty - who is the Source of reality.

In these verses the New Song is sung by those accepting the Creator as King over all the earth/universe; personally I'd prefer people do that before Armageddon, and Judgement Day.

In these verses we can see the Lord places a correction into people from the sky, through something flowing; I do believe it is possible to educate people via the internet, to accept the Messianic prophecies...

I'd prefer the first option or the Source of reality showed me at 15 years old, as the Great Battle takes place, God will cleanse this reality at a quantum level, and keep those who accept both the New Song of the Lamb, and the Old Song of Moses.

In my opinion. :innocent:
Interesting. Thank you.

I'm persuaded that we must all sing the new song if we are to enter the kingdom of God. I think Moses sang both the old song and the new, because unlike most of the children of Israel he was a man of faith, and enjoyed face to face communion with the Lord. This means that he moved in the spirit, prophetically, and was not reliant on learning from the the written word. Those under the law are reliant on the written word for their learning but those living by grace, through faith, are given a direct knowledge in the Spirit. This direct knowledge should match the written word of God, thereby ensuring that it is the Word (in spirit) that is written upon the heart, and not some spiritual deception.

Moses could only live in hope of the Messianic age, but, IMO, he sings the new song through faith in the salvation of God, the Messiah. l believe Jesus Christ is the new song, for without His Spirit we cannot sing anything new.

Interestingly, Jesus taught that new wine should not be put in old wine skins/bottles. To me this indicates that the Holy Spirit does not sit happily with a religious outlook based on man's 'works'. Or, to put it another way, man's righteousness must give way to God's righteousness; the two cannot co-exist.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
From a close reading of scripture it is clear that the heart can know, making it the source of logical and rational motivation as well. The heart therefore can learn all the laws and express the choice of obedience through behavior and performance. Deut 8:5-6.

But knowledge is unconnected to the heart textually, and is simply knowing and understanding intellectually (compare Deut 9:3 and 4-6 to see the distinction -- the heart might mislead us though the intellect tells us otherwise in terms of connecting to God).
Is what you say in accordance with Proverbs 3:5,6?
'Trust in the LORD with all of thine heart; and lean not unto thy own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths'.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I think Moses sang both the old song and the new
I would say Moses knew the Lord was the Salvation (Yeshua) interacting, as there are multiple verses indicating it (Genesis 49:18, Exodus 14:13).

Moses knew the expectations as well, that 'the Lord would become Yeshua' (Exodus 15:2), and be rejected, as the texts shows this as well (Deuteronomy 32:15-18).

Moses also shows in Deuteronomy 30:1-10, that the Lord would be our leader, and would restore all the people of God.

So clearly he already accepted the Song of the Flock (Lamb), and knew the Messiah would be shepherd over them.

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Is what you say in accordance with Proverbs 3:5,6?
'Trust in the LORD with all of thine heart; and lean not unto thy own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths'.
absolutely -- those verses make the balance clear, that both using the heart and then the head are both essential. The text teaches not to rely on personal ideas and purely human thoughts but to learn and understand the wisdom of God's laws. The text actually says that man should use his intellect to learn God's laws (in all your way, learn about him), but one should be humble and realize that he can't rely solely on his own intellect. As the Metzudat David says, "use your intellect to think and do all your actions so you will come to see all depends on fulfilling the word of God." And if someone more knowledgeable tells you you are wrong, don't be so haughty that you scorn his instruction.
 
Top