Are You Right?

[osgart]

Uhmn....would you care to define 'love?'

For that matter, a definition of 'evil,' and one of 'good' would be helpful, too.

Simplest thing to observe. May be harder to explain in words. Actions reveal it.

Love is the desire for the well being of others, and your own self.

Evil destroys the well being of others and self.

And goodness is produced to benefit the well being of others and self.

 

[Salvador]

Right about what?

 

[dianaiad]

Simplest thing to observe. May be harder to explain in words. Actions reveal it.

Love is the desire for the well being of others, and your own self.

Evil destroys the well being of others and self.

And goodness is produced to benefit the well being of others and self.

Who gets to decide what 'well being' is?

Story:

When I was very young, polio was a very real 'thing.' My cousin and I were supposed to have vaccinations. We both threw tantrums (well, we were, like, barely six...) and didn't WANT to stand in line and get stuck with needles. MY parents made me do it, even though I thought they were cruel, evil people who only wanted to hurt me...and in fact, it did hurt. A lot. The shot hurt, and so did the spanking I got for throwing the tantrum. it took me quite awhile to forgive them for making me do that, and they DID make me. They stood right by me and held me while I got the shot, while I was screaming.

My cousin's parents gave in and she wasn't vaccinated that day. They calmed her down, and she got her first shot, after a great deal of loving persuasion, the following week.

I didn't get polio.
She did.

So. Who was evil? What was evil? Whose perception counts? Who gets to decide this stuff?

 

[osgart]

Who gets to decide what 'well being' is?

Story:

When I was very young, polio was a very real 'thing.' My cousin and I were supposed to have vaccinations. We both threw tantrums (well, we were, like, barely six...) and didn't WANT to stand in line and get stuck with needles. MY parents made me do it, even though I thought they were cruel, evil people who only wanted to hurt me...and in fact, it did hurt. A lot. The shot hurt, and so did the spanking I got for throwing the tantrum. it took me quite awhile to forgive them for making me do that, and they DID make me. They stood right by me and held me while I got the shot, while I was screaming.

My cousin's parents gave in and she wasn't vaccinated that day. They calmed her down, and she got her first shot, after a great deal of loving persuasion, the following week.

I didn't get polio.
She did.

So. Who was evil? What was evil? Whose perception counts? Who gets to decide this stuff?

Wow. I do not see any evil in the story, just tragedy. Sorry for your troubles though.

As for the question about who decides what is evil, and what is not evil, unfortunately we all have to rely on humanity collectively to make those judgments. I do not see a perfect way coming forth. Over time we can get better and better at it.

Evil is malicious and deliberate and i saw nothing malicious or deliberate in your story.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm probably wrong..

...but less wrong than you.

 

[dianaiad]

Wow. I do not see any evil in the story, just tragedy. Sorry for your troubles though.

As for the question about who decides what is evil, and what is not evil, unfortunately we all have to rely on humanity collectively to make those judgments. I do not see a perfect way coming forth. Over time we can get better and better at it.

Evil is malicious and deliberate and i saw nothing malicious or deliberate in your story.

Well, that's the problem; from the POV of the two little girls (my cousin and I) we saw nothing BUT evil. After all, our parents wanted to hurt us, and they did.

From our parent's POV, they were not evil; they wanted to prevent evil...and while mine intentionally hurt me whether I agreed or not, my cousin's parents gave in to her...and she got polio. Because they DID talk her into it, her case wasn't fatal, or even (considering what other kids had to put up with) all that bad, though it did take her nearly a year to get all her muscles working right again. Her vaccination did work, partially, evidently.

The point I was making is that 'evil' depends upon what one knows: While I am incredibly grateful to my parents for what they did, for forcing me to get those shots, it took me quite awhile to forgive them and understand. the thing is, though....they had the knowledge. I didn't. I can tell you this: I didn't let any of MY kids get away with tantrums regarding vaccinations. I had the knowledge; they didn't.

If we are talking about 'evil,' then, how can we decide, for certain, that what someone else does is 'evil?"

Oh, and is 'evil' only applicable to what people choose to do, or is 'evil' also applicable to physical processes, like, oh, tsunamis or earthquakes?

....and can we honestly trust the definition of 'evil' to 'humanity, collectively?" Because I've seen mob decisions before. People, collectively, have a very fluid definition of 'evil,' usually boiling down to 'whatever we don't like/are afraid of,' and 'good' is 'that which we approve of."

So what we need is a clear definition of 'evil,' of 'good,' who gets to decide what either is, and who doesn't.....

Good luck to us.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Whose decision would it be to harm one innocent being in order to save hundreds of being is it? Is it the choice of that one innocent being to be willing to sacrifice their life of their own volition? Or is someone else deciding that they should sacrifice that one innocent being to save hundreds?

That makes all the difference, doesn't it.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

That makes all the difference, doesn't it.

I guess you know why

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I guess you know why

Willingly doing something, is usually far more beneficial than being coerced. Because, what is done willingly, is done better.

 

[osgart]

Well, that's the problem; from the POV of the two little girls (my cousin and I) we saw nothing BUT evil. After all, our parents wanted to hurt us, and they did.

From our parent's POV, they were not evil; they wanted to prevent evil...and while mine intentionally hurt me whether I agreed or not, my cousin's parents gave in to her...and she got polio. Because they DID talk her into it, her case wasn't fatal, or even (considering what other kids had to put up with) all that bad, though it did take her nearly a year to get all her muscles working right again. Her vaccination did work, partially, evidently.

The point I was making is that 'evil' depends upon what one knows: While I am incredibly grateful to my parents for what they did, for forcing me to get those shots, it took me quite awhile to forgive them and understand. the thing is, though....they had the knowledge. I didn't. I can tell you this: I didn't let any of MY kids get away with tantrums regarding vaccinations. I had the knowledge; they didn't.

If we are talking about 'evil,' then, how can we decide, for certain, that what someone else does is 'evil?"

Oh, and is 'evil' only applicable to what people choose to do, or is 'evil' also applicable to physical processes, like, oh, tsunamis or earthquakes?

....and can we honestly trust the definition of 'evil' to 'humanity, collectively?" Because I've seen mob decisions before. People, collectively, have a very fluid definition of 'evil,' usually boiling down to 'whatever we don't like/are afraid of,' and 'good' is 'that which we approve of."

So what we need is a clear definition of 'evil,' of 'good,' who gets to decide what either is, and who doesn't.....

Good luck to us.

Tsunami's and Earthquakes are blind natural occurences. There is no intention involved in their natural processes. Evil takes intention.

I would rather have laws against murder then no laws at all. It would be far worse to be passive about making judgments. The fact that we put everyone on equal footing with the law forces a far more civil society.

For deciding evil was done by a particular individual we need hard evidence, corroborating accounts and witnesses, and discover possible motives for the individual to commit the act. There must be an established, consistent, accurate logic to the accounts. It all has to fit.

On the surface and over time you can assess a person's actions, whereabouts, and measure up what they say as to what they do. Behaviour is a strong clue, but not always.

Nothing is going to be supremely ideal, mistakes will happen. But the consequences of doing nothing about evil is severe.

Can humans be trusted to be honest about evil? I take that on an individual basis. If people would carefully think through what kind of society they would love to be living in then they know that respect, fear, and love are driving forces in the real world. Its necessary to make laws equal for everyone including one's self. Any inequality or immunity to law invites a disaster of corruptions.

Greed, false pride, and hate are also driving forces in the world but they need a prosperous, civil society to survive off of. Democracy prevents more evil then there would otherwise be.

I can't see doing away with such words as love, good, or evil. They are necessarily descriptives of our realities. People can seem to diminish the meaning of these words, but that to me is dangerous.

 

[Cooky]

Consider religion, politics, philosophy, morals, ethics, or whatever. How do you know you are right and another is wrong?

Is there truly a right or a wrong? Or are right and wrong merely human constructs to assert perspective?

Thoughts?

Eventually, if both parties are honest, one will cease or admit failure, and benefit from it as a positive experience.

...When honesty is absent, then anger sets in. With anger comes unpredictability and potential chaos.

These are the only two possible outcomes in a debate.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Consider religion, politics, philosophy, morals, ethics, or whatever. How do you know you are right and another is wrong?

Is there truly a right or a wrong? Or are right and wrong merely human constructs to assert perspective?

Thoughts?

In philosophy and religion, I have only logic for one and faith for the other to support my positions. Sometimes not much of the former for that matter. In science, the correctness of my views is based on evidence, but can vary depending on how robust the body of evidence is and must remain open to new evidence that would lead me to change my view.

Within practical situations, I have to make judgment calls and come to the best conclusion I can, based on knowledge, logic, evidence and experience.

I can know when others are wrong more easily than I can know that I am right.

 

[Cooky]

In philosophy and religion, I have only logic for one and faith for the other to support my positions. Sometimes not much of the former for that matter. In science, the correctness of my views is based on evidence, but can vary depending on how robust the body of evidence is and must remain open to new evidence that would lead me to change my view.

Within practical situations, I have to make judgment calls and come to the best conclusion I can, based on knowledge, logic, evidence and experience.

I can know when others are wrong more easily than I can know that I am right.

I think it's easy to tell when someone has lost at logic. I sometimes wonder how moderators view arguments. They must study debate at some point, and notice things. It would be interesting if they could share just a little bit of random wisdom... just any random observation... @SalixIncendium...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Consider religion, politics, philosophy, morals, ethics, or whatever. How do you know you are right and another is wrong?

Is there truly a right or a wrong? Or are right and wrong merely human constructs to assert perspective?

Thoughts?

Truly? Meh...no...
But sure as heck some actions are more right than others. Or more wrong.

Do you doubt that?

 

[ChristineM]

Consider religion, politics, philosophy, morals, ethics, or whatever. How do you know you are right and another is wrong?

Is there truly a right or a wrong? Or are right and wrong merely human constructs to assert perspective?

Thoughts?

I am woman so of course i im always right ;-)

In the real world, i am usually happy with my decisions but am willing to learn and change my view if the evidence contradicts that decision.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Consider religion, politics, philosophy, morals, ethics, or whatever. How do you know you are right and another is wrong?

Is there truly a right or a wrong? Or are right and wrong merely human constructs to assert perspective?

Thoughts?

Mostly, I don't know I am right about any of these things. I might have a raised conviction that one direction (not the group ) might be better for mankind than another, as in my leftish-leaning political outlook, and that a liberal outlook is fairer to all than more rigid and/or conservative policies, but I can't definitely say I know this to be true.

I am more suspicious when groups form and try to tell the rest of us how to behave, think, act towards others, etc., particularly when this might be based on the words of some leader or prophet. Group behaviour often doesn't bring out the best in us - we often tend to leave the thinking to others - and our brains at home!

And I don't see a way to arrive at any objective means of doing this. I just see humans as being far too messy and incompetent, and we have to accept this and just deal with it rather than insisting there is some unique truth out there to be found - or already found. Which is why I am not so enamoured with religions - having too much influence when mostly they don't deserve to have this. But one can't just erase history and our human nature overnight - the former, never, but we can at least properly analyse it.

 

[stvdv]

Consider religion, politics, philosophy, morals, ethics, or whatever. How do you know you are right and another is wrong?
Is there truly a right or a wrong? Or are right and wrong merely human constructs to assert perspective?
Thoughts?

Is there truly a right or a wrong? Thoughts?
Hypothetical: Bible is true telling God exists and created the world

Then there is no right nor wrong for us humans. There is just Karma (action of God creating the world and creating the reactions)
If you want to point out "right or wrong" then do it to GOD. I would be surprised if this Bible God would not take full responsibility
God seemed to be quite proud of His Creation in Genesis, so He will know how to deal with a little criticism from His Creations(us)

 

[Jim]

Consider religion, politics, philosophy, morals, ethics, or whatever. How do you know you are right and another is wrong?

Is there truly a right or a wrong? Or are right and wrong merely human constructs to assert perspective?

Thoughts?

It depends on the context. In the context of the moral code that I’ve chosen to follow, an action can be right or wrong, for my purposes, but I don’t use that as an excuse for any unloving attitudes and behavior towards anyone. In discussions about current issues, I don’t think of my views or anyone else’s as right or wrong. I think of my views only as mental devices to facilitate thinking about what to do and how to do it. For me, my discussions with other people about our views are not about who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s for whatever good it might do for us to talk to each other about our views.

I’m thinking now that I do have unfriendly feelings towards people, and behave in unfriendly ways towards them sometimes, because of how I feel about their behavior, and sometimes I might think that it’s right for me to do so, so I’m contradicting myself, For example, allowing myself to openly denounce what they’re doing sometimes. I don’t remember clearly how I decided to do that.

I try to spend time with some of the people whose views seem the most contrary to mine, to try to find ways of understanding what they’re thinking, that I can agree with.

 

[Father Heathen]

Who gets to decide what 'well being' is?

Story:

When I was very young, polio was a very real 'thing.' My cousin and I were supposed to have vaccinations. We both threw tantrums (well, we were, like, barely six...) and didn't WANT to stand in line and get stuck with needles. MY parents made me do it, even though I thought they were cruel, evil people who only wanted to hurt me...and in fact, it did hurt. A lot. The shot hurt, and so did the spanking I got for throwing the tantrum. it took me quite awhile to forgive them for making me do that, and they DID make me. They stood right by me and held me while I got the shot, while I was screaming.

My cousin's parents gave in and she wasn't vaccinated that day. They calmed her down, and she got her first shot, after a great deal of loving persuasion, the following week.

I didn't get polio.
She did.

So. Who was evil? What was evil? Whose perception counts? Who gets to decide this stuff?

The decision is made by considering the actual intentions and consequences.

 

[Father Heathen]

....and can we honestly trust the definition of 'evil' to 'humanity, collectively?" Because I've seen mob decisions before. People, collectively, have a very fluid definition of 'evil,' usually boiling down to 'whatever we don't like/are afraid of,' and 'good' is 'that which we approve of."

Morality based upon reason, compassion, and real world cause and effect is far more sensible and trustworthy than the arbitrary, irrational, unsubstantiated, and inconsistent/disproportionate "morality" of ancient, primitive savages.