Are you certain that God exists?

[Sabio]

There is no stalemate. Without compelling evidence, things are assumed false. Things are not true and false until one is shown to be more worthy than the other. Although I think that's where our opinion conflicts... so, innocent until proven(used loosely)
guilty or innocent and guilty until proven innocent or guilty.

Of course, because of this, I'm not certain god doesn't exist. But until compelling evidence suggests otherwise, god remains false.

Meogi,

What kind of evidence would compel you personally?

Sabio

 

[michel]

Are you implying that God is an emotion?

No, I wasn't; I was hoping that you would say yes, and then ask how you could prove your love.Hm not sure about the validity now, but let's see what you make of it.

 

[Fade]

No, I wasn't; I was hoping that you would say yes, and then ask how you could prove your love.Hm not sure about the validity now, but let's see what you make of it.

Emotions can be shown to exist through scientific/empirical testing. A simple MRI or CAT scan can show that. At any rate the burden of proof is on you as it is you who wants me to believe that God exists. I don't want or need to prove that I love since it is completely subjective to me.

 

[michel]

Emotions can be shown to exist through scientific/empirical testing. A simple MRI or CAT scan can show that. At any rate the burden of proof is on you as it is you who wants me to believe that God exists. I don't want or need to prove that I love since it is completely subjective to me.

Yes, Quite. I get the point - which is why, as soon as I posted the question I realized what you were going to come back with..

Just out of interest though can the MRI or CAST scan give you a 'dimension' of intensity ? - can we really prove that what will be perceived by the conscious will be the same for everyone where the activity in the same brain area is reproduced ? - but I guess that's verging on off topic - better stop thinking on paper........

Edit: Looking at the thread title - Are you certain that God exists ? Why do I have to prove to you ? - as far as I am concerned, you can believe in what you like, as I will. Maybe the best answer, from word 1 would have been 'Yes'.

 

[Fade]

Just out of interest though can the MRI or CAST scan give you a 'dimension' of intensity ? - can we really prove that what will be perceived by the conscious will be the same for everyone where the activity in the same brain area is reproduced ? - but I guess that's verging on off topic - better stop thinking on paper........

Edit: Looking at the thread title - Are you certain that God exists ? Why do I have to prove to you ? - as far as I am concerned, you can believe in what you like, as I will. Maybe the best answer, from word 1 would have been 'Yes'.

The way I see it, there is no reason to believe that perception of emotion differs from person to person. In the same way that you perceive red in the same way I perceive red. We are afterall all products of the same genetic blueprint.

As for your second point, you are right, you don't have to prove it to me. Mainly because it can't be done but also because you aren't trying to shove your belief down my throat

 

[meogi]

Meogi,

What kind of evidence would compel you personally?

Sabio

Um, beyond personal revelation... a good answer to the question I asked in the thread I linked to earlier would probably suffice.

As to what 'good' would be... evidence helps a lot there.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

No need for this "what if", satanists and Christians both believe in a spiritual world...

Sabio

ummm not literally. Most Satanists are atheists. Those of us who aren't Atheists don't really place too much faith in our own beliefs, so I doubt you'd find too many Satanists ready to hang their hat on the "Spiritual World" Theory. And even if I did believe in the spiritual world, how would that change the fact that you are simply trying to make any objective investigation impossible?

Maybe, if you are going to use the Spiritual World as a measure, you should first prove that a Spiritual world exists.

 

[Sabio]

ummm not literally. Most Satanists are atheists. Those of us who aren't Atheists don't really place too much faith in our own beliefs, so I doubt you'd find too many Satanists ready to hang their hat on the "Spiritual World" Theory. And even if I did believe in the spiritual world, how would that change the fact that you are simply trying to make any objective investigation impossible?

Maybe, if you are going to use the Spiritual World as a measure, you should first prove that a Spiritual world exists.

Jocose,

By objective I'm guessing you mean scientific? Have at it, but I believe you already know that you can't prove / disprove the existence of God through empirical methods.

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

Um, beyond personal revelation... a good answer to the question I asked in the thread I linked to earlier would probably suffice.

As to what 'good' would be... evidence helps a lot there.

Meogi,

I pray that you get the personal revelation you desire. (a positve one)

Sabio

 

[michel]

The way I see it, there is no reason to believe that perception of emotion differs from person to person. In the same way that you perceive red in the same way I perceive red. We are afterall all products of the same genetic blueprint.

As for your second point, you are right, you don't have to prove it to me. Mainly because it can't be done but also because you aren't trying to shove your belief down my throat

Heh - the bit about the perception of 'red'; how do we actually know that we see the same 'red' ? When we are young, we are told - that is red; who is to say that the 'red' that I see is the same 'red' you see? - but we both call the color by the same name ?

 

[meogi]

Heh - the bit about the perception of 'red'; how do we actually know that we see the same 'red' ? When we are young, we are told - that is red; who is to say that the 'red' that I see is the same 'red' you see? - but we both call the color by the same name ?

That is the beauty of interpretation, michel. But! That doesn't stop red from being red, itself. It's a certain frequency on the visible spectrum, and regardless of how you or I or anyone sees it, it is still 'red' by definition. And because of that, you ARE seeing the exact same color. Exactly how you see it, is irrelevant.

It's harder to say that with 'feelings', because while the chemical causing it is constant, there are many, many other chemicals/electric impulses affecting it too. But, generally, you are 'feeling' the exact same thing as everyone else. How everyone interprets it is generally different though... because interpretation is just more chemicals/impulses in the brain. And no one's brains are the same. But there are some that are close... Similar stimuli running through similar brains would be bound to produce similar 'feelings'. And I don't know if it's been studied, but twins would be something to look at for that. That's 'how' you could prove something like that, michel.

I'm still not sure exactly what point you're trying to make though...

 

[michel]

I suppose I was going 'out of focus' - I haved even forgotten what point I was trying to make - I was obviously thinking on keyboard again; I really must stop doing that!


Ah, right - having gone back in time, I can see where I was coming from - I was in conversation with Fade - and made the point about proving 'Love' - in other words trying to draw a parallel between the belief in one intangible and another. I think.

I suppose when it comes down to it, In should have stopped, at post #63, in which I agreed with Terrywoodenpick; quote:
..........................."Terry, I think you hit the nail on the head, when you said:-
"I feel no compulsion to prove God exists.
I am quite sure God loves me, sinner that I am. Why should I doubt him.

Terry"............"

I guess I thought I had seen a slght chink in the armour, but it was another blind alley. I have to be content in knowing that what I believe in (for me) needs no definitions, however ridiculous that sounds to one who uses just logic.

 

[Ryan2065]

Heh - the bit about the perception of 'red'; how do we actually know that we see the same 'red' ? When we are young, we are told - that is red; who is to say that the 'red' that I see is the same 'red' you see? - but we both call the color by the same name ?

I am red-green colorblind. I do not see the same red as you =)

Amazing you brought this up in this thread, because my colorblindness is the exact reason why I don't think god exists! (Just a little joke... back on topic? =P )

And if any of you make a blue smilie and ask me what color it is... It's your funeral...

 

[Fade]

Heh - the bit about the perception of 'red'; how do we actually know that we see the same 'red' ? When we are young, we are told - that is red; who is to say that the 'red' that I see is the same 'red' you see? - but we both call the color by the same name ?

This is a slightly rhetorical argument but look at it this way. The reason you have two arms with hands that have five fingers is the same reason that you and I perceive red to be the same. Unless your brain is wired differently to mine (which I doubt since you are able to hold a rational conversation ) then there is no reason to believe that our perception is different. The name that we have been taught to call the colour has no relevance. Our eyes are evolved to be sensative to the same narrow spectrum of visable light and unless you belong to a different species or suffer from some form of blindness, what you see is what I see.

 

[Steve]

Are any of you theists certain that God is there? How can one be certain, when there is an incredible lack of evidense to support such certainty?

To me, being certain that God exists wouldn't be any different than being certain that bigfoot, the lochness monster, and aliens exist, when in fact there is no evidence (except anecdotal evidence) to support such a certainty, it is just as absurd.

Yep, im certain.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20
​

Creation is just one of many reasons for me, the probabilities that even simple life formed (let alone the Human Brain etc) without God are so absurd that i find it amazing that people can belive their isnt a God.

Other reasons for me include my personal experiences weather in worship or reading the bible, their are times when you can just feel Gods presence - or when truly feeling the love of God and forgivness of sin after taking it to God knowing that its thanks to his sacrifies that i can be forgiven.

Another reason would the circumstances surrounding Jesus Christ, eg his ressurection, many of the apostles went to horrible deaths proclaiming the risen Christ whom they claimed to have personally seen. While many people have died for what they belive the apostles were in a position where they didnt just belive Christ had risen they knew weather it was true or not and to claim they all went to such deaths for somthing they knew was a hoax is absurd.

Just a few reasons im certain there is a God.
I belive the issue isnt so much faith in weather their is a God but faith in God, and their is a big difference.

 

[Quiddity]

then there is no reason to believe that our perception is different.

Are you sure you meant perception?

~Victor

 

[Ceridwen018]

Creation is just one of many reasons for me, the probabilities that even simple life formed (let alone the Human Brain etc) without God are so absurd that i find it amazing that people can belive their isnt a God.

Other reasons for me include my personal experiences weather in worship or reading the bible, their are times when you can just feel Gods presence - or when truly feeling the love of God and forgivness of sin after taking it to God knowing that its thanks to his sacrifies that i can be forgiven.

Another reason would the circumstances surrounding Jesus Christ, eg his ressurection, many of the apostles went to horrible deaths proclaiming the risen Christ whom they claimed to have personally seen. While many people have died for what they belive the apostles were in a position where they didnt just belive Christ had risen they knew weather it was true or not and to claim they all went to such deaths for somthing they knew was a hoax is absurd.

Allow me to break this down, if you will. To me, your reasons read as follows:

1. A misunderstanding of science.
2. Strong, at times indescribable feelings which you interpret as God because you have been taught to interpret them as God from a young age.
3. Actions of a group of people who you can't even prove truely existed, and which are repeated often enough today, (mass cult suicides, etc.)

 

[Steve]

Allow me to break this down, if you will. To me, your reasons read as follows:

1. A misunderstanding of science.

Um no, science tells us that the probability of a self replicating cell forming by itself is pathetic, if the same probabilities were ascribed to any other theory it would be regarded as absurd. Yet the only other option is that the cell didnt form by itself and rather then even consider this you instead regard the idea as unacceptable and then state that science supports your conclusion that no God is needed - however its because you have already accepted that their is no God and that therefore he couldnt have had a hand in the formation of life, you dont conclude that their is no God because of the evidence - thats your prior assumption.

2. Strong, at times indescribable feelings which you interpret as God because you have been taught to interpret them as God from a young age.

Oh of course, thats it - You know more about what ive been through then i do.
You dont even know how long ive been a christian - you have no idea of the things ive seen and heard. Have you ever seen somone afflicted from evil spirits or have you ever seen someone who is demonized being delivered? Offer whatever theory you want as to the "real" cause of this sort of phenomenon - but until your even open to the possibility of God you will only see what you want.
I have seen things that i could never deny, i have felt things which i couldnt deny - and i know in my heart without a doubt that God is real.
One of the hardest things for me is when someone replies with the kind of comments you just have - you are unconfortable with my experiences because if they are real then your assumptions about Gods existance fall over, do you claim to know everything? Christians throughout history report the same types of experiences, yet you know whats really happening dont you - you must really regard us as poor deluded fools.

3. Actions of a group of people who you can't even prove truely existed, and which are repeated often enough today, (mass cult suicides, etc.)

Yeah i guess your right, maybe Jesus and the apostles never really existed, along with the Christian movment, maybe the New Testament was never written, maybe the early church never existed?
Gee now im wondering if Christians actually existed in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd centeries right up to now - maybe Christians have never really existed? Maybe Christianity is here today but wanst yesterday - you seem to think it sprung up from nothing?
If you dont know if Jesus truly existed or the apostles then what other history can you possibly accept?

mass cult suicides - yep great argument, to liken the circumstances of the apostles deaths to a mass cult suicide is just lame :areyoucra- people who commit suicide in a cult are people who have been decieved - they have put their faith in the leader of the cult. However as i mentioned befor "many of the apostles went to horrible deaths proclaiming the risen Christ whom they claimed to have personally seen. While many people have died for what they belive the apostles were in a position where they didnt just belive Christ had risen they knew weather it was true or not and to claim they all went to such deaths for somthing they knew was a hoax is absurd."

Again as i said befor it dosnt matter what is put befor you if you are unwilling to accept the possibility of God, just keep explaining everything away - you can live your entire life and never put all your faith in anything accept atheism - your choice, God gave us freewill - dont think there wont be consequences if your wrong though.

 

[michel]

Are you sure you meant perception?

~Victor

Thank you Victor - that is the point I was trying to make.

One tiny example - and maybe not that good a one, is that I am slightly blue green colour blind. I have a real problem with the 'shades of' - now I can only see this as a 'malfunction' of some small part of the brain in colour recognition - but I have learned to addapt to the extent that I can sometimes call the colour I see by the correct name, although I obviously see a different colour from you . Get the point ?

 

[Cynic]

If this is true then you do not believe. So everything that happens always has scientific evidence?

I believe that most things can be effectively and thoroughly explained by using the scientific process.

Just because you do not trust your feelings don't tell everyone else not to trust theirs.

Feelings are a physiological response to a stimulus, it is a completely biological process. Feelings are processed based on perceptual information. Perception is not always reliable.

My feelings on a lot of things have be proven right. Faith is believing in the unseen. We have faith in the wind, yet we don't see it.

But wind is objectively there and is fully observable.

Now to the point. Does God exist? Yes

Are you certain? and what evidense supports that certainty?

Some Reasons: People talk of the fantastic order of the universe. Well doesn't order imply that someone or something is guiding it. Without guidance there is no order.

The universe is not exactly in order.

Also think of the sheer odds that all things would come into existence without guidance.

Who made God?

Most would say it is still possible. About as possible as me winning all the state lotteries at the same time with the same numbers. Possible but not very likely.

What mathematical equation did they use that came to this conclusion?

Also what is it called when something miraculous happens? Some call it luck because they cannot explain it. I call it Divine intervention.

I call it the divine fallacy.

Try and get science to prove luck.

IMO there is no such thing, it's simply superstitious belief.

Is science always right? No
Some Reasons: There has been many times in history when we just knew something was true, because it was scientifically proven. Then found out it wasn't true. Science is based on a series of hypothesis. The word means educated guess. A good guess but in the long run just a guess. Science has failed me, but God has not.

The scientific process begins with a hypothesis, it doesn't end there.

So I have no choice but to believe in God. To believe purely in science, when it cannot explain a lot, is ludicrous.

Obviously you know little about science

Also I want someone to show me some of the evidence that God does not exist. They keep telling me it is out there but I have never seen it.

There is no evidense to show that God does not exist, but there is no evidense to show that God exists either. So how can anyone be certain when there is nothing to support certainty? IMO it is not possible to be certain.