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Are you certain that God exists?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Cynic, Aug 2, 2005.

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  1. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    Curious, why would a god create deadly angels?

    And how are angels different from the plurality of gods which are characteristic of polytheism?
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I'm sure you are curious ... but I'll answer anyway: God is infinitely smarter than His creation. I'm glad He did, aren't you?

    They're infinitely smarter than polytheists.
     
  3. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    So... god made angels because he is smart? I don't get it. And I don't see how that should make me happy.

    So... angels are better than polytheistic gods? That makes them sound like gods.

    I also noticed that you said the angels are infinitely smarter than polytheistic gods, and god is infinitely smarter than his creations, and he created the angels... then that would make him infinity-squared times smarter than the polytheistic gods. Since infinity-squared equals infinity, that makes god as smart as the angels.

    Come on, you can think up better excuses than that. How about something like "to save us from our sins" or "to cause us to sin" or "to save us from our negative karma" or "to save us from our misdemeanors" or "to save us from our felonies" or "to save us from accidental death" or "to kill our enemies" or "to watch us while we sleep" or "to move the clouds" ...
     
  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well I can see you don't get it. God made "deadly" angels, as you called them, because He knew in advance that they would be needed.

    Quote me right, then let's talk.

    Wow ... a whole paragraph ... and you misquoted me in the first place. Do you see why these posts go on and on and on like the Energizer Bunny?
     
  5. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    No. You called them deadly. Why are they "needed?" I thought god was all-powerful.

    Maybe you can clarify yourself. I asked you about the angels compared to the polythestic gods. Your answer was simply: "They're infinitely smarter than polytheists." That is word for word, not a misquote.

    So tell me, what did you mean? I was not asking about polytheists, so I figured you meant the polytheistic gods. Consequently, that would make "they're" a reference to the angels. If this is not what you meant, you may do well to elaborate into maybe two or three sentences.

    I am trying to understand your mythology, but it makes it very difficult when your answers are so short. Basically, I want to understand what makes angels different from gods. I should probably make a new thread.
     
  6. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Then, here is my question: Why would God create and then abandon?

    There is a lot of wisdom in creating and taking good care of the creation and ensuring spiritual progress through 'good and evil' ...

    Well, I can't discuss this further unless you give me a sound criteria to decide the truthfulness of a prophet and his signs. What do you refer to when you say 'worth' of the saying fo a prophet?

    Then you know very little about signs and superstition... again... a criteria is needed.

    Confirm? Then, how do you confirm? If I am not wrong, you aren't really sure.

    God demonstrates the credibility of a prophet through signs. We don't happen to find meaning in the sign but a sign is from God. God says so Himself. You believe in God, right? What's your evidence for God? If you believe in that evidence, what's your standard to believe such evidence?
     
  7. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    These are a whole bunch of allegations on prophecies and I have to admit that there are many people in history who have not done much to help the authenticity of prophecies or prophets.

    However, our problem is deepening. Without a standard criteria, we don't have a single place to start. You have brought the need to distinguish true prophets from false ones, true prophecies from false ones, and the role of spectators/witnesses of those prophecies.
     
  8. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    God's jealousy has nothing to do with the creation of evil. According to my understanding, the devil was not a fallen angel. He is another type of being, called the Jinn. In fact, many only consider him to be metaphorical and the concept of the devil is only there to understand the evil that is within humans. God created evil only for humans to progress. When there is suffering, there is health. When there is evil/devil, there is good/spiritual progress for humans. In fact, it is a Mercy of God to create evil so that we can progress. In fact, what exactly is evil? It is the absence of good/ absence of God from our hearts. So, there is nothing wrong with evil, just like there is nothing wrong with suffering. It is necessary.

    Man is created in the image of God means that man has the capability to adopt some of the attributes of God. It doesn't mean that he's born with it. It means that he can progress towards it.
     
  9. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    God created Satan, but, like man who stray from God, Satan did also.

    Look here. If God created a man, and that man chooses a life of evil, or Satan worshipping, or whatever, is he still created from God? Yes. They chose not to
    be with God, or to choose to be "evil", much like Satan chose to be.

    It is not God abandoning man, it is man abandoning God. I agree.
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Please DO make another thread, then I can ignore it and give my keyboard a rest.

    Why ON EARTH would I even hint that there are "other gods", let alone talk about them in a post? I am monotheistic. This means I believe in only one God.

    And since you think I am engaging in mythology, there's no way I feel I can convince you where I'm coming from.

    I'm sorry. But I'm just as disappointed as you. As long as you think the Bible is a myth ... I just don't know how to answer your questions.
     
  11. chariot of fire

    chariot of fire New Member

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    im afraid u stumbled hard on this misconception about the devil. there is no such things as jinn. devils are not metaphorical, they are real spirits. in the first creations of angels, they were endowed with free moral agencies. Lucifer was formerly the right hand of God, a high ranking angel. through his free will he wanted to replace God...1/3 of angels including him were outcast from heaven after they were defeated by Michael d Archangel...

    this is the most awkward thing i have ever encountered. a very wrongful notion. how can God of love, justice, mercy and holiness create evil for human progress??? we suffer because our first parents adam and eve were tempted and disobeyed. the original plan of God is a paradise where love and peace prevail..adam and eve are likewise free moral agents who chose to disobey and ate the evil part of the tree of good and evil

    true...

    false. our original parents are born with it...they were created into God's image so meaning, spiritually they are born with it..adam and eve were not physically created. they were spiritually created. they became flesh after they fell into sin and flourished the earth bearing the serpent seed of satan within them who tempted adam and eve. to sum it up...even if God is powerful...He himself is subjected to divine rules. he cannot terminate man who sinned and angels who fell. this was their choice. but this is not the end yet coz God has a promised plan to fulfill the NT. it is called the second coming of Jesus Christ - and this event is happenign right now......................

    another revelation which is intended only for the sons and daughters of God
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I'd say forming man from the dust of the ground is pretty physical to me, wouldn't you?
     
  13. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    There is beauty and inspirtation in a self-sufficient system. For example, I would love to have a car that needed no fuel or maintenance, and could last a billion miles. It is unwise to create something that requires maintenance, unless you intend to profit from it.

    Creation itself is proof enough to me of a creator.

    As for uncertainty, I feel it should always exists, even if as a fraction of a percent. I am merely human, subject to the limits of my perceptions and my ability to Reason. No matter how certain I am of anything, I could be wrong.
     
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  14. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    We will never agree on what a "true" prophet is, since we do not agree on what a "prophet" is. I believe that the ancient word for "prophet" was originally equivalent to the modern word "poet." This would make sense, since poetry was often the preferred medium for storytelling in illiterate societies. Over the years, the word "prophet" began to be associated with what was orignally a "seer" or a "dreamer of a dream." Prophets, just as poets, can have a certain insight into human nature (some might call it "divine inspiration," but I digress) and often have a clever way to relay their observations. It is no surprise when a prophecy, just as a poem, resembles something that happens after the fact. The more cryptic the poem, the more interpretations it can be said to have. I see this same phenomenon in modern poetry. Many of today's prophets/poets come in the form of a band, not unlike the ancient times.
     
  15. mr.guy

    mr.guy crapsack

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    So who makes the rules for God?
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    He made them himself.:)
     
  17. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Now I am beginning to understand why people accuse such stories as being mythological. I don't think angels have the ability to choose or anything even close to free will. In fact, I almost pity god in this story that his high-ranking angel (whom he created himself) stood up to him and all he could do is cast them out of heaven?

    Because evil is what determines what is good and vice versa. Suffering determines health. Sadness in only the other side of the coin of happiness. All these things have to go in pairs. Otherwise, evolution would not have progressed. Man would not exist today without the suffering that the original creatures had to go through. I see Mercy and Justice in that.

    And what happens to evolution? Don't tell me you believe that the earth was created only 6000 years ago!

    Your god is very week and unwise. God does not subject Himslef to rules that are so stupid. His rules are full of wisdom. His knowledge is infinite and you are telling me that He could not foresee that Lucifer was going to betray him? Evil is only there to determine progress. Evil, in fact, is the starting point of all progress. And there is nothing wrong with a belief that Adam and Eve were physical beings with spirituality within them.

    The second coming of Jesus Christ has already happened and it is in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) of Qadian, India.
     
  18. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    God is the Sustainer of the system. In fact, God is the Life through which everything else exists. God sends prophets not for the system itself to improve or to maintain itself. It is for the good of man and again, not in the physical sense but in the spiritual sense. Man is the only being endowed with spiritual capabilities that can enable him to progress towards God.

    The other thing is that the physical system is perfect as it is but spirituality leaves a door open for further progress in a different 'setting'.

    As for certainty, it is achievable. I agree with you when you say that reason has its limitations. However, revelations, visions, and other experiences of God can enable one to achieve 100% certainty without the slightest doubt.
     
  19. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    In that case, hundreds of thousands of prophets came to the world and I have a criteria to determine whether a prophet is true or not and that is in the Quran. I am not interested in the relationship of prophets or poets and the various interpretations of their poems because I know a true prophet can provide prophecies that are not poetic, and they are very clear, accurate, and to the point. The only thing I want to know is why do you digress when someone is said to have had 'divine inspiration'? Also, in order to determine the credibility of any person's words (let alone prophets) what would you need? What would be required to have something 'worth saying'?

    Why would you agree/disagree with a person who claims that he has had divine inspiration?
     
  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    No He doesn't. The prophets ended after the completion of the Bible in 96 AD.
     
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