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Are you certain that God exists?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Cynic, Aug 2, 2005.

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  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    That'll be the day.

    1. Yes
    2. Rebellion
    3. No
    4. Yes
    5. Yes
    6. He could have, but chose not to.
    7. He will --- give Him time.
     
  2. Harvster

    Harvster Member

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    AV1611:tsk: & Radar,

    1. God did create the Devil as he is an angel as stated in Isaiah 14:12-14.
    2. Answered above plus the fact as stated by AV1611 that he rebelled which resulted in him becoming evil known as the Devil.
    3. Yes he is a fallen angel as stated in Ezek 28:12-15.
    4. Yes.

    5. Yes see Ezek 28:13.
    6. Why should he as he allowed him to tempt humanity to see if they will fall the same way as Satan did. Because humanity has a free will (as does Satan and all other creations) they followed the same path to temptation and it was only when God sent his son that we see Satan overcome as Christ did not fall to Satan’s temptations.
    7. See 6 above and as stated by AV1611 He will.:D

    Harvs
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Harvster, to say that God created the Devil is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. If you were to build a mousetrap, and one day it caught a hamster, would it be right to say you built a hamster trap?

    Just like the mousetrap had the potential to catch a hamster, God created His angels with the potential to rebel. That potential is called 'free will', and without it, the angels and mankind cannot operate at maximum capacity.
     
  4. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    So let me get this strait, god created the devil, the devil is evil, so therefore god created evil. It is the whole inteligent design theory come back to bite you the arse.

    And this god being a jealous god (10 commandments) why would he create anything that would ever go against him? Like the devil and humans.

    And god being perfect why or how could he create something that is not perfect and in his on image? (humans) It would seem if god is perfect then his image would be perfect therefore humans should be perfect.

    But hey I agree if there is a god and he created the devil then it was god that created evil.
     
  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Why do we have children then? :D

    God created CHOICE: you can choose to follow him or not. This is free will 101 here. What is evil but the absense of God? So if you choose to NOT follow God, then you BECOME evil by definition. God didn't force you to not follow him, but he knew this would happen. He knew we couldn't handle free will. But he loved us SOOOOO MUCH, well you proabably know the rest.

    The real issue is whether we blame God or not. Look at Adam "it's the woman YOU gave me, Lord". Not only did Adam shift the blame to Eve, but he even shifted it to God. Why? Pride and arrogance. We call it "human nature", God calls it sin. That's why people are SO QUICK to try and remake God in their image.
     
  6. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    I don't blame god for anything. I don't even claim he created anything. I claim I don't know and believe that it is unknowable and I am now carefree. I take responsibility for my actions and don't think any of them as sins against any god.
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You didn't answer my first question. Although there was a smiley face behind it, it's a worthy question.
     
  8. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    Sounds to me like what we have here are two equal and warring devils. That is, one devil named Lucifer Satan and the other named Jahova Yahweh. Apparently, Yahweh claims that you are either for or against him, making all the non-followers evil. Consequently, Satan appears to promote free will, making all of the Yahweh followers evil.

    It sounds like childish games to me.
     
  9. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    People have children for many different reasons. I have a child and she is wonderful. But I am not going to put any expectations on her or require her to love me and only me. She will grow up and do with her life what she wants. She puts her heart and love into her mother and I. I am sure when she grows up that she will leave my home to be alone or with someone that she loves in a home of her own. Do I think that she will love me any less? No, I don't. Do I expect her to live her life for me? No, I don't. I will always love her no matter what happens even if it is something that I may not agree with. And if she does things that I don't agree with I will not shut her out of my life or home. She will always be welcome. To bad god can't say the same.
     
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  10. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    And it is for this reason that I believe that god is indifferent to the matter of the knowledge of his existence. Consequently, I do not see any problem with Atheism.

    That is a very good point. All the more reason to consider such things as indications of a lie. If a prophet has something worth saying, no such miracles or signs would be necessary.

    That's what we call superstition.

    No. A Deist needs no signs or miracles to confirm his faith.

    As I said before:
     
  11. chariot of fire

    chariot of fire New Member

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    hahahaha!!! u r too overwhelmed with ur intelligence fascist...u will probably believe on the existence of GOd if he faces u on the judgment. seeing him with ur 2 suspicious eyes. how good of u to to atttribute God's creations on storybooks and poetry.... if that is a poetry... it was inspired by the greatest poet ever live whom u will face on the judgment day...
     
  12. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    Let's say 100 "prophets" predict my death at different years across a century. Statistically speaking, I will probably be dead by then. In that case, one of the "prophets" would be correct. Of course, this is an illustration of chance rather than divine inspiration.

    Granted, this is over simplified, but over the course of tens of thousands of years, it is certainly probable that millions of "predictions" would come to pass. And with our natural tendencies to filter out excessive information, and pick out those bits which we are looking for, combined with the number of "prophets" over the course of time, and the custom of killing those who spoke of something that did not come to pass, and the vagueness and later clarifications of "prophecies" --- an "accurate" prediction is no longer a surprise to me.

    Some people read their horoscope and are surprised when it's right. I look at it and try to think of a scenario that would have made it wrong.

    The more you want to believe something, the more it appears to be true. This is called a delusion.
     
  13. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    I appoligize if I come off as arrogant. I do not wish to promote myself, only to exchange ideas.

    I already believe the existence of a god, that is why I am a Deist. It comes from the word "deus" which is the latin word for "god."

    I fear no judgment. There is no purpose for it.

    Those stories and poems are the works of man. No deity required.
     
  14. chariot of fire

    chariot of fire New Member

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    there are two main points i can share that might give answer to your questions

    first, angels before creation of heavens and the earth were created with free moral agencies. Lucifer and 1/3 of them chose to rebel against God. its their choice. unforunately, they werent able to dethrone God. their falter and defeat were their choice.

    second, God is a God of just that He himself is subjected to DIvine Rules. He did not intend to destroy the angels even if they rebelled against him, who later were cast out of heaven. their destruction is eternal damnation. either if it is intentional or unintentional, their fate was the result of their choice.
     
  15. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    So where was god and the angels before the heavens and earth were created? And how could the devil be thrown out of a place that wasn't created yet? This eternal damnation is it the place called hell? If so how is and why is it that the devil can come and go as he pleases? It seems that the devil has only flourished since being cast out.
     
  16. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    I like this part of the myth. It's nice to see that some had it in them to stand up to the oppressor.

    And no wonder they lost, they were out numbered 2 to 1. And then Yahweh exiles the rebels? So much for justice. When you have such a huge rebellion, it is usually a sign that you've been doing something wrong. I don't buy this "lust for the throne" excuse. I would like to hear Satan's explanation. Maybe they saw the way Yahweh was treating the people, or maybe Yahweh treated the angels in a similar fashion. Or maybe they were sick of the dictatorship and wanted a democracy.
     
  17. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    I like how you write:jam: :clap
     
  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I don't think the devil would want to "come and go" as he pleases into Hell. According to Job 1:6 and 2:1, his preference is Heaven.
     
  19. Harvster

    Harvster Member

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    AV1611,


    I’m afraid you have completely confused me as you are saying exactly what I said. Let me put it this way. God created a cherub (angel) named Lucifer. He gave him free will as you and I both stated. Because he was full of pride in himself he used that free will to try and dethrone God. It was from this rebellion that Lucifer was cast out of heaven and this is the start of sin and evil. He is now more commonly named Satan or the Devil.:D

    Harvs
     
  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Right on!

    Cherubs used to be as deadly an angel as God could create, until disbelievers got their mitts into Scripture and changed them into cute little babies posing for Hallmark cards.

    I'll take Scripture over Hallmark anytime.
     
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