Are you an atheist? if so, What is your POV about God?

[Willamena]

There's also a real-world proposition "gods don't exist". You don't have to believe that proposition just because you don't believe the proposition "gods exist".

Okay, but propositions are positive, they state a way that the world actually is. The world is positive; we believe in a positive world. The proposition "gods don't exist" is the proposition "gods exist" negated. Negation is a means of expressing something about real-world propositions: that they are false. Negation doesn't create something new, it doesn't create a negative part of the world, it's just the real-world negated.

What you call "the real-world proposition (truth) that gods do not exist," I call "the negation (falsehood) of the real-world proposition that gods exist." Which is better English (language should reflect the positive).

You're letting how you say something define how you see the world.

 

[Sonofason]

No they don't.

No man hath seen God at any time. John 1:18, 1 John 4:12
Whom no man hath seen nor can see. 1 Timothy 6:16

And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend. Exodus 33:11

I [Micaiah] saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 1 Kings 22:19

The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand. Amos 7:7

Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Genesis 32:30

I believe you are incorrect in your analysis. Moses did not see God face to face, but he spoke to God “face to face, as one speaks to his friend” I take this to be a kind of anthropomorphism, where Moses is having an intimate conversation with God in human terms. It is not an indication in any way that Moses saw with his eyes the complete fullness of God.

With regard to your quote from 1 Kings 22:19, you missed a key point from the preceding verses. Do recall what Micaiah said to the King. He said,
"As the LORD liveth, what the LORD saith unto me, that will I speak." (1 Kings 22:14)

Even the verse you quoted is missing context. the entire verse reads:
"And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."
(1 Kings 22:19)

I believe I need not go any further. Either you are quoting from non-biblical resources, or you are being utterly dishonest, or both. Which is it?

 

[Sonofason]

Except for the fact that both the fairies and god have the same amount and same type of evidence...

That you are unwilling or unable to seem the correlation and instead wish to go on about being offended reveals much more about you than the correlation.

What is a fairy? How do you know they do not exist? Which texts do you refer to which claim that fairies actually exist, as opposed to the numerous references and ardent claims that God exists?

 

[ArtieE]

Okay, but propositions are positive, they state a way that the world actually is. The world is positive; we believe in a positive world. The proposition "gods don't exist" is the proposition "gods exist" negated. Negation is a means of expressing something about real-world propositions: that they are false. Negation doesn't create something new, it doesn't create a negative part of the world, it's just the real-world negated.

What you call "the real-world proposition (truth) that gods do not exist," I call "the negation (falsehood) of the real-world proposition that gods exist." Which is better English (language should reflect the positive).

You're letting how you say something define how you see the world.

Well, I just see the world as it really is. There are people here who say "I believe gods exist" and we call these people theists. There are people here who say "I don't believe gods exist and I don't believe gods don't exist I haven't decided" and we call these people weak atheists because they are not theists but don't believe gods don't exist either. And there are people who say straight out "I believe gods don't exist" and we call those strong atheists. That is the real world I live in and have to relate to.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

@ADigitalArtist

Agnoticism and agnostic atheist is confusing. For example,

Do you believe a person behind your screen is typing to you exists?

If you believe (a theist) the person exists, what is that belief based on?

Theists can tell you straight what their beliefs are based on. As such, with these facts they conclude they KNOW their beliefs exist/are facts. They arent beliefs.

If you dont believe a human is behind your screen, what is this belief based on?

If a theist can base their beliefs on something why cant atheists? You cant be hanging on "I dont know" if you are to claim disbelief. It must be based on some knowledge whether true or false.

What you want to claim or not has no barring on whether your disbeliefs are based on facts (atheism) or lack of knowledge to say anything about the subject (agnostic).

Knowledge isn't and shouldn't be informed by belief. Whether you believe and whether you know are two separate non-mutually exclusive questions. I do not believe in the existence of gods because they lack evidence and because of natural systems which neither indicate the works of gods nor have the need for gods to function. But I do not claim absolute certainty in the lack of existence of gods because I can't make that claim. Hence, agnostic atheist.

There are also agnostic theists, people who believe evidence does indicate a god but likewise do not claim certainty of knowledge. They do not and cannot know for sure. All agnostic means is that the existence of gods are unknown or unknowable. It doesn't preclude the believer from having or not having beliefs about the existence of gods.

To quote the man who coined the phrase:
"The atheist may however be, and not unfrequently is, an agnostic. There is an agnostic atheism or atheistic agnosticism, and the combination of atheism with agnosticism which may be so named is not an uncommon one.

If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist – an agnostic-atheist – an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..." Robert Flint, Croall Lecture, 1887

 

[ArtieE]

I believe I need not go any further. Either you are quoting from non-biblical resources, or you are being utterly dishonest, or both. Which is it?

Did I forget the link? Here it is. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/seen.html

Here is some more interesting stuff.

Gen 32:24
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Gen 32:25
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

Gen 32:26
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

Gen 32:27
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

Gen 32:28
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Gen 32:29
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/32/30/s_32030

Did Jacob wrestle with a man or God or both?

 

[Willamena]

Well, I just see the world as it really is. There are people here who say "I believe gods exist" and we call these people theists. There are people here who say "I don't believe gods exist and I don't believe gods don't exist I haven't decided" and we call these people weak atheists because they are not theists but don't believe gods don't exist either. And there are people who say straight out "I believe gods don't exist" and we call those strong atheists. That is the real world I live in and have to relate to.

Fair enough. But if your real world proposes non-existent or negated things then it's twice as big as the world need be.

 

[columbus]

Here is my POV concerning the concept of God over the course of human history.

Animism > Polytheism > Henotheism > Monotheism > Agnostism > Poof.
Poof is when God is recognized as fiction invented by humans for their own purposes.
Tom

 

[ArtieE]

Fair enough. But if your real world proposes non-existent or negated things then it's twice as big as the world need be.

It sounds like you live in a personal world that is half the size of the real world. I can only relate to the real world.

 

[Sonofason]

Well, I just see the world as it really is. There are people here who say "I believe gods exist" and we call these people theists. There are people here who say "I don't believe gods exist and I don't believe gods don't exist I haven't decided" and we call these people weak atheists because they are not theists but don't believe gods don't exist either. And there are people who say straight out "I believe gods don't exist" and we call those strong atheists. That is the real world I live in and have to relate to.

Artie, there are no strong atheists. There are atheists who believe strongly that God does not exist, and there are agnostics who don't know if God exists. If a man or woman denies the existence of God, they are asserting a strong belief that no God exists. Those who you claim are weak atheists are not atheists, but agnostics who lean toward the belief that no God exists because they have become discouraged by the fact that they have not comprehended or accepted the vast available evidence that could convince them that God does exist. And the reason they identify themselves as atheists is because within themselves is developing a feeling of resentment towards God that has not become fully established as with the strong atheists. There is no evidence that God does not exist. So the "strong atheist" is an absurd position to take. Usually these people actually understand and believe that God exists, but have a deep resentment and hatred for him for a variety of reasons. If you are not a "strong" atheist, it is because you understand that their could be a God. If one has this understanding, then it is a fact that they do not know that there is a God. And that fits the definition of agnostic.

Now I understand the reasoning behind the various words that are used to describe one's level of faith in God, and it is because there are varying degrees of faith, and they desire to formulate a description for themselves that does not place them in a category that seems too extreme for them. In the end, there are those who believe that God exists, those who hate God and demand He does not exist, and those who are still formulating their opinions.

 

[Sonofason]

Did I forget the link? Here it is. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/seen.html

Here is some more interesting stuff.

Gen 32:24
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Gen 32:25
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

Gen 32:26
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

Gen 32:27
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

Gen 32:28
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Gen 32:29
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/32/30/s_32030

Did Jacob wrestle with a man or God or both?

Most of us wrestle with God at some point in our lives.

 

[ArtieE]

Now I understand the reasoning behind the various words that are used to describe one's level of faith in God, and it is because there are varying degrees of faith, and they desire to formulate a description for themselves that does not place them in a category that seems too extreme for them. In the end, there are those who believe that God exists, those who hate God and demand He does not exist, and those who are still formulating their opinions.

Actually in reality you have:

1. Those who believe one or more gods exist. The decided. Theists.
2. Those who don't believe gods exist and don't believe gods don't exist either. The undecided. Weak atheists.
3. Those who actively believe gods don't exist. The decided. Strong atheists.

This is how it is in the real world.

Oh, and by the way... I can assure you I don't hate Zeus or Poseidon or Thor or any god. Do you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Knowledge isn't and shouldn't be informed by belief. Whether you believe and whether you know are two separate non-mutually exclusive questions. I do not believe in the existence of gods because they lack evidence and because of natural systems which neither indicate the works of gods nor have the need for gods to function. But I do not claim absolute certainty in the lack of existence of gods because I can't make that claim. Hence, agnostic atheist.

There are also agnostic theists, people who believe evidence does indicate a god but likewise do not claim certainty of knowledge. They do not and cannot know for sure. All agnostic means is that the existence of gods are unknown or unknowable. It doesn't preclude the believer from having or not having beliefs about the existence of gods.

To quote the man who coined the phrase:
"The atheist may however be, and not unfrequently is, an agnostic. There is an agnostic atheism or atheistic agnosticism, and the combination of atheism with agnosticism which may be so named is not an uncommon one.

If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist – an agnostic-atheist – an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..." Robert Flint, Croall Lecture, 1887

Hmm. That makes sense. For me personally because I haven't grown up with any belief and concept of god, and to this day the only concept I have of god as deity is Jesus Christ, I can't think of any other way to "believe" nor "not believe" in something I haven't been introduced to.

A lot of people grow up not even hearing the concept of god and are atheists because of it. I don't understand how, once someone hears the concept or idea of god, they have to be somewhere in the agnostic field.

The only way god exists in how I see things is by idea, concept, and experience of others. God, in that point of view, is the human experience. Once you define god as a deity or spirit floating in space separate from humans and ideas thereof, then it becomes quite impossible to even "not know" it exists. I hate the word, but it becomes imaginary.

When an agnostic atheist or agnostic says they don't know something exist, they are still giving it the possibility of existence. If that's true, it could exist, then it is part of their reality even though they may not know it.

I have seen so much evidence against the deity existence of god that I can't claim "I don't know" because the conclusion I came to confirmed and answered my question. It's the same with mathematics. When we have a problem, find the answer, and confirm it, we no longer say "the answer could be this or we don't know if the answer is that" now we know.

Why don't atheists say they know god doesn't exist? What is it that is holding them on to "I don't know" unless god is somehow in concept or concrete part of their reality (theism) they just don't know about it enough to claim it true? (Agnosticism)

 

[ArtieE]

Why don't atheists say they know god doesn't exist?

Because I can't produce evidence that would show beyond a reasonable doubt that god doesn't exist.

 

[Acim]

Actually in reality you have:

1. Those who believe one or more gods exist. The decided. Theists.
2. Those who don't believe gods exist and don't believe gods don't exist either. The undecided. Weak atheists.
3. Those who actively believe gods don't exist. The decided. Strong atheists.

This is how it is in the real world.

Oh, and by the way... I can assure you I don't hate Zeus or Poseidon or Thor or any god. Do you?

The only difference I see between what you are choosing to focus on and how @Sonofason conveyed that, is that you call those in #2 weak atheists and Sonofason calls them agnostic.

Regarding the last part, if I attribute god to something you claim to hate (let's go with Trump or Hillary) would that mean that you don't hate what you call that (assuming you don't call it god)? IOW, to me you are saying you don't hate anything, any idea.

______________________________
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Perhaps worthy of another post (if not another thread), but feels like it fits here. If theists get claim for gods (plural) and gods could be attributed to anything that exists, and yet determined by the believer to be gods, then how in the real world does atheism (weak or strong) deal with that? Such that everything in existence currently could be someone's gods, which means they are clearly in existence, and likely have evidence that they exist. Yet, the rejection isn't based, I would think, on them existing, but on them being worthy of referenced as gods. Which kind of seems to relate directly to both positions of atheism. And is how some (to arguably all) theists would have a degree of atheism in them (their beliefs about gods).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because I can't produce evidence that would show beyond a reasonable doubt that god doesn't exist.

Why would you need to? That's like saying "I don't know that money doesn't exist in my hand because I can't prove without a reasonable doubt that it doesn't exist."

Is it because god isn't tangible?

 

[ArtieE]

The only difference I see between what you are choosing to focus on and how @Sonofason conveyed that, is that you call those in #2 weak atheists and Sonofason calls them agnostic.

Atheists are those who don't BELIEVE. Agnostics are those who don't KNOW. My chart was for theists/atheists. You can set up your separate chart for gnostics/agnostics. Or you can set up a chart combining them. But MY chart was for theists/atheists.

Perhaps worthy of another post (if not another thread), but feels like it fits here. If theists get claim for gods (plural) and gods could be attributed to anything that exists, and yet determined by the believer to be gods, then how in the real world does atheism (weak or strong) deal with that? Such that everything in existence currently could be someone's gods, which means they are clearly in existence, and likely have evidence that they exist. Yet, the rejection isn't based, I would think, on them existing, but on them being worthy of referenced as gods. Which kind of seems to relate directly to both positions of atheism. And is how some (to arguably all) theists would have a degree of atheism in them (their beliefs about gods).

No idea what you mean. Atheists don't believe in the EXISTENCE of gods. These guys.

1. 1.
   (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. 2.
   (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

 

[ArtieE]

Why would you need to? That's like saying "I don't know that money doesn't exist in my hand because I can't prove without a reasonable doubt that it doesn't exist."

No it's like saying I don't know that money doesn't exist anywhere in or outside this universe since I can't look everywhere and confirm it doesn't exist.

 

[Sonofason]

Actually in reality you have:

1. Those who believe one or more gods exist. The decided. Theists.
2. Those who don't believe gods exist and don't believe gods don't exist either. The undecided. Weak atheists.
3. Those who actively believe gods don't exist. The decided. Strong atheists.

This is how it is in the real world.

Oh, and by the way... I can assure you I don't hate Zeus or Poseidon or Thor or any god. Do you?

Zeus and Poseidon, and Thor or any other god you can mention apart from the God of Abraham (YHWH) is no god at all. And since these "gods" as you like to call them are impotent I would expect that you'd have no reason to fear them anyhow.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No it's like saying I don't know that money doesn't exist anywhere in or outside this universe since I can't look everywhere and confirm it doesn't exist.

That would mean you're leaving the possibility that the money exists in your hand even though your view of reality may tell you otherwise?