Are you an atheist? if so, What is your POV about God?

[Segev Moran]

you will need to define both.
Your reply does nothing to clear up the difference to an outsider.

I'll give you a definition that might match this post.
There are endless definitions for a spirit and even more for religion or god.
When I say Religion in that post, I mean a set of rules and beliefs derived from a scripture or interpretations of scripture.
When I say spirit in that post, I mean a immaterial, nonphysical , non observable, non-sensed force or energy that exists beyond our understanding which connects us to another dimension of existence and acts as a bridge to our physical existence.

 

[Segev Moran]

Religious concept does not mean a religion's concept as in Christianity, Islam, etc.. One can be spiritual without a religion but can not divorce spirituality from religious concepts it is part of.

Wow... Its almost as if you are saying that spirit is an invention of religion so it is always connected to it?
What about Ghosts?

 

[Shad]

Wow... Its almost as if you are saying that spirit is an invention of religion so it is always connected to it?

Not almost saying. It is.

What about Ghosts?

Yes as a ghost is considered to be a soul/spirit of a thing which is a religious concept.

 

[Segev Moran]

Not almost saying. It is.
Yes as a ghost is considered to be a soul/spirit of a thing which is a religious concept.

I Think you got that the other way around...
I Think religion is a spiritual concept and not vise versa...

What about Wizards?

 

[McBell]

I'll give you a definition that might match this post.
There are endless definitions for a spirit and even more for religion or god.
When I say Religion in that post, I mean a set of rules and beliefs derived from a scripture or interpretations of scripture.
When I say spirit in that post, I mean a immaterial, nonphysical , non observable, non-sensed force or energy that exists beyond our understanding which connects us to another dimension of existence and acts as a bridge to our physical existence.

Thank you.
That does a much better job at clearing it up.

 

[`mud]

Kind of chilly this morning,
but I can't still blow any 'fog'.

But I somehow know,
there's a little of my spirit there.
Wisp away..... that of my existing presence,
soon to be totally vaporous,
and ashes on the ground.
The 'spirit' is there forever.
~
get buried at one's own desire,
you will run out of spirit there.
~
'mud

 

[Shad]

I Think you got that the other way around...
I Think religion is a spiritual concept and not vise versa...

No it isn't as spiritual concepts still fall under religious concepts

What about Wizards?

Depends on the type and context. One can be a computer wizard for example

 

[Sonofason]

Well, to pretend this is all true for a moment just for arguments sake......

1. Your perfect god could find not alternative to blood sacrifice to correct a system he himself instigated.
2. His sacrifice was ineffective because the death was not real. The sacrificial human rose from the dead, and therefore the death was not peermanent.
3. If you are trinitarian in belief (you may not be, Christians have a huge variation in what they choose to believe) then god sacrificed himself to himself.
4. You have absolutely nothing to convince others of this except just your own faith, which has no value to others whatsoever.

1. The blood sacrifice was not initiated to correct a "system" that God put into place, It was part of the system that God put into place. And I have no idea if he could have put some other system into place.
2. Of course it was effective because Jesus did die on that cross. Death is death. What lies beyond death, you have no idea and no knowledge.
I do not see your logic. Why must a death be considered permanent in order to be considered death? I understand that your world view only includes those things which you believe are true. But I understand that I do not know everything that is true. Hence, I do not find myself trapped as you are trapped, in an empty box.
3. Yes in other words God became man in order to die as a man, in order to accomplish his will to redeem his creation from sin.
4. I believe I already have played a roll in convincing others to put their faith in God. I just haven't convinced you. Maybe I can't convince you. Maybe you can't be convinced.

 

[Segev Moran]

No it isn't as spiritual concepts still fall under religious concepts



Depends on the type and context. One can be a computer wizard for example

No.. i mean a wizard that can shoot fireballs out of his hands as an example.

 

[Shad]

No.. i mean a wizard that can shoot fireballs out of his hands as an example.

Magic is still a religious concept.

 

[Segev Moran]

Magic is still a religious concept.

How about the ability to fly and shoot lasers out of your eyes? AKA as superman?

 

[Milton Platt]

1. The blood sacrifice was not initiated to correct a "system" that God put into place, It was part of the system that God put into place. And I have no idea if he could have put some other system into place.
2. Of course it was effective because Jesus did die on that cross. Death is death. What lies beyond death, you have no idea and no knowledge.
I do not see your logic. Why must a death be considered permanent in order to be considered death? I understand that your world view only includes those things which you believe are true. But I understand that I do not know everything that is true. Hence, I do not find myself trapped as you are trapped, in an empty box.
3. Yes in other words God became man in order to die as a man, in order to accomplish his will to redeem his creation from sin.
4. I believe I already have played a roll in convincing others to put their faith in God. I just haven't convinced you. Maybe I can't convince you. Maybe you can't be convinced.

If I could die knowing that I would come back as the immortal ruler of the universe, death would be acceptable. That is hardly the death that awaits us. When we die, we stay dead, we do not "roll back the tombstone". So I see it a bogus.

It is said that God is all knowing and all powerful and can see the end from the beginning, right? And the best system he can come up with is centuries of animal blood sacrifice culminating in the torture and death of a human? My morals are superior to the morals of a god like that.

I is self evident that an all knowing and all powerful being can design any system he damn well pleases. Evidently, it pleases him to have blood sacrifices in his name.

God became man? Explain how that works. All of God became man, or some fraction thereof? And are you saying that god actually died? Then what resurrected the dead god? He seemingly sacrificed himself to himself, is that not so? Or who was the sacrifice to, then?

 

[Shad]

How about the ability to fly and shoot lasers out of your eyes? AKA as superman?

You would have to look at the sources used, influences present and the creators of characters such as superman.

 

[Segev Moran]

You would have to look at the sources used, influences present and the creators of characters such as superman.

So basically.. everything supernatural is sourced by religion with the exception of religion which is sourced from???

 

[Shad]

So basically.. everything supernatural is sourced by religion with the exception of religion which is sourced from???

I said religious concept not from a particular religion.

 

[Segev Moran]

I said religious concept not from a particular religion.

What is a religious concept based on?

 

[Shad]

What is a religious concept based on?

It is a category based on anthropology of religion and philosophy of religion regarding different beliefs such as an afterlife, the divine, etc, along with practices like prayer, code of conduct and other rituals that bring people closer to the divine.

Regarding superman he is not supernatural (according to the movies), he is 100% natural. Since he is from a different world his species developed differently. From what I remember his world is very dense thus has a higher gravity than that of Earth. This would have a drastic effect on his bone structure and organs as these would need to withstand a higher gravity or his body would collapse. The star his planet orbits is different from ours which produces less radiation than our own. All of his powers based on "what ifs" from science-fiction. In the case of Thor his powers are not supernatural but he was mistaken for a supernatural being by humans.

 

[Segev Moran]

It is a category based on anthropology of religion and philosophy of religion regarding different beliefs such as an afterlife, the divine, etc, along with practices like prayer, code of conduct and other rituals that bring people closer to the divine.

So a religious concept is based on a religious study? Makes sense But when you study religion, What is it that you are studying?
What I'm trying to figure out is how you see religion? I See it as a men made ideas (same as philosophy), which makes religious concepts all men made. It seems we agree on that.
The interesting question is what came first? did humans thought of what you describe as religious concepts before religion or after?
The ancient tribes invented religion based on things they couldn't really understand (lightning for example).
they believed lightning is a God or a super natural force. based on that notion and many alike, they invented rules and ideas how to please that God thus forming a religion. So in that case, the religion came after the spiritual ideas.
I Can agree that angles for example are religious concept, but not every supernatural idea.

Regarding superman he is not supernatural (according to the movies), he is 100% natural.

Indeed... yet without that knowledge, one might consider him as super natural.. interesting no?

 

[Shad]

So a religious concept is based on a religious study? Makes sense But when you study religion, What is it that you are studying?

Depends on the subject at hand. Some studies can be very narrow focus such as an individual within a religion to a broader focus such as communal aspects, singular beliefs to sets, structure, role in society, etc.

What I'm trying to figure out is how you see religion? I See it as a men made ideas (same as philosophy), which makes religious concepts all men made. It seems we agree on that.

I see it as a social construct that has had different uses within different societies at different times.

The interesting question is what came first? did humans thought of what you describe as religious concepts before religion or after?

What do you mean by religion? If you mean the structured religions we have now than than these ideas came well before. If using it as a basis for creating categories of different concepts than neither before nor after but simultaneously as an idea emerged.

The ancient tribes invented religion based on things they couldn't really understand (lightning for example). they believed lightning is a God or a super natural force. based on that notion and many alike, they invented rules and ideas how to please that God thus forming a religion. So in that case, the religion came after the spiritual ideas.

Only in part and only in some religions. For example Islam does contain this aspect but such ideas already existed in the area and time of Islam's and Christianity emergence. Such ideas were a matter of fact so it did not invent this aspect but incorporated it as it was common knowledge.

Spiritual ideas are still religious concepts.

I Can agree that angles for example are religious concept, but not every supernatural idea.

Not every supernatural idea is actually supernatural. For example a lot of illnesses were seen as supernatural or the acts of something supernatural but were later shown to be completely natural. Hence why so many project a religious concepts on to an event with nature. Another example is people will treat a death event as an act of God "It was their time".

Indeed... yet without that knowledge, one might consider him as super natural.. interesting no?

It is the way we think at times and a failure of us to put to test our ideas. For example the Aztecs had a prophecy regarding a return of a god from the east. When the Spanish arrived many thought that this prophecy was playing out. The gifts of gold by the Aztecs to the Spanish were a test which the Spanish failed as they gave in to greed which was not something the Aztecs believed their gods would do.

 

[Segev Moran]

I see it as a social construct that has had different uses within different societies at different times.

We agree on that.

What do you mean by religion? If you mean the structured religions we have now than than these ideas came well before.

Are there any non-structural religions??
the definition of religion is a structured belief. It is a belief in a deity or supernatural force for that matter, that needs to be worshiped using on a set of rules and traditions.

If using it as a basis for creating categories of different concepts than neither before nor after but simultaneously as an idea emerged.

I Disagree... The basics of all religions are based on spiritual entities.
First, the "Entity" was invented (usually to satisfy a need to explain something not yet understood (Like fire, moon, stars etc)) upon which a set of rules was invented in order to satisfy imaginary wills that the entity demands.

Only in part and only in some religions. For example Islam does contain this aspect but such ideas already existed in the area and time of Islam's and Christianity emergence.

Islam and Christianity are not a basic religion. they are derived from the Jewish bible.The Jewish bible is based upon many wrong assumptions regarding natural phenomena.
Things like earthquakes, meteors, stars and such where something that was not understood to the inventors of the Bible.. so in order to try and understand how our universe came to be, they invented a God. This God might be real and might not, but the fact is, that most of the ideas in the bible were long ago dismissed by scientific knowledge.
Christianity doesn't deny God's actions during season 1 ... and same goes regarding Islam for Both seasons...
I Assume you agree that light couldn't have been without our sun for example.
I Also assume you agree that the moon and the sun weren't really created to rule the night and day?
I Hope you agree that the universe wasn't really created in 6 days, And I really really really hope you don't think Dinosaurs and Humans were created the same time and lived and prospered together...
(I wonder BTW if it was really so, what happened to the dinosaurs?)
So at the bottom line, Both Christianity and Islam are based on a religion that is most probably (to say the least) based on an Imaginative entity.

Such ideas were a matter of fact so it did not invent this aspect but incorporated it as it was common knowledge.

So the Idea snakes could once talk is a matter of fact?
How about the notion of the flood? did a God really eliminated an entire existence of 99.99999% of all life on earth and made sure to erase any shred of evidence to that event?
How about the idea that All of humanity came from two people, 1 male and 1 female that only had 2 boys?

There are Hundreds of ideas that are far far from being a fact! They are so far from being a fact, that theists try and change the meaning of the book in order to for it to make some sense (very very little BTW ).

Spiritual ideas are still religious concepts.

Nope

Not every supernatural idea is actually supernatural. For example a lot of illnesses were seen as supernatural or the acts of something supernatural but were later shown to be completely natural. Hence why so many project a religious concepts on to an event with nature. Another example is people will treat a death event as an act of God "It was their time".

I Agree with everything you said here, with one small exception...

Not every supernatural idea is actually supernatural.

Should be: All supernatural ideas, are most probably wrong. For example a lot of of illnesses were seen as supernatural or the acts (etc etc)...

It is the way we think at times and a failure of us to put to test our ideas. For example the Aztecs had a prophecy regarding a return of a god from the east. When the Spanish arrived many thought that this prophecy was playing out. The gifts of gold by the Aztecs to the Spanish were a test which the Spanish failed as they gave in to greed which was not something the Aztecs believed their gods would do.

That almost sounds like you are admitting that every event that people think God (or of its sorts) is responsible for actually have a rational and logical thing behind, but people don't really know so they invent a cause that fits their understanding... like uh... God saves someone from Cancer that was diagnosed as incurable...
Or God made an earthquake that killed thousands because it was angry about Gay people...(or some other b.s.)